Re: USA gun violence thread

[M99]

Absolutely hilarious takes here. We're a few degrees of separation away from posts saying about there being a great race war soon which is what the KKK preaches about.

There is no "narrative" here, just facts. A hate crime is also a murder. When a murder or assault of any kind is fuelled by prejudice to ethnicity, skin color, religion, country etc it is a hate crime. When it is over something else entirely it is not a hate crime.

Expecting a "rap music has done more harm to black people than white people ever did" post somewhere down the line in this thread.

[Warrior]

you're so bitter dude

[CBarca]

For the record, I shouldn't have to preface, but McLewis I'm sure you know you and I feel very similarly about these things (except of course that me being who I am, I can never truly empathize with the way you feel, and have to feel).

I just raised questions about that particular case. I don't want people looking at my post thinking that I don't believe racial violence is a thing, since I clearly do and it's a massive problem

[Warrior]

M99's whiny outrage was directed at me, it occurs every 2 months or so about minor things i say your own post was damn clear

Perhaps i should clarify mine out of respect for McLewis... Racist killing of black people does exist and it's scandalous, yet i think it's a slippery road to assume hate crime on every occasion. There has been huge riots in the past, in LA notably, and sometimes i fear it can blow out in a worse manner (this time with retaliation by whites) since it's legal to carry a gun in USA. Because everyone is given a specific tag, and the prejudices that come with it creates inner anger, obviously. No offense but america don't seem like a very united country.

Bs if my genuine concern is assimilated to KKK or whatever else of this sort

[The Demon of Carthage]

I really do not understand this "guns are part of our culture" argument. So what if it is? It doesn't make it any less evil or unacceptable.

Slavery was also part of your culture and pretty much every civilization that has ever existed, but it had to be banished because it's evil.

Guns are dangerous and many Americans have time and time again proven that they shouldn't be trusted with owning one. And yet people still defend this monstrosity.

As long as you have them, you'll always have mass shootings, you'll always have murders and hate crimes, and people like McLewis will continue to live in fear every time they step outside their homes.

You call this the land of the free? Cause I don't.

[M99]

What exactly am I bitter about lol?

Its not just you. I want to give Mclewis the opportunity to reply first to Art's post. Whenever there is an incident here, some posts here fill a checklist from a template.  I bet in 2015 we would see "all lives matter", did not really browse this section in those days so don't know. First time I called this out and I am whiny, ok then. What I see is hate crime being downplayed, if that makes me an outraged beta SJW feminist cuck or whatever ok then, I'll take that.

And I did not call you KKK, I apologize for causing offence.

[Warrior]

Not all hate ends up as a crime... yet
So many groups in society are holding grudges against each other, without being openly hostile. I don't wish it of course but it's quite naive to think it cannot escalate into a chain reaction of violence, especially in USA where any psycho can get a gun.

SJW are narcissists whose only real contribution is to raise the social tensions, that's why i dislike them. I think you are intelligent enough to not fall in that category.

CBucks and Art have questions but they've been cautious to not sound racist, if you read well. And me i had to clarify my thoughts afterwards because you exaggerate what i said as attempt to discredit. So nobody is downplaying hate crime (in bad will) here. YOU are the one being counter-productive, if anything. Nothing in post #556 deserved to be written.

[M99]

I directed nothing at Cbarca...I actually agree with him. I need to read up more about that case but it sounds more like cops being incompetent and trigger happy than anything else.

Hate crime being downplayed is a trend in this section. I remember the posts after the Christchurch shooting. Your post talks about there being a "narrative" which will cause a "civil war" A narrative says that there is a story, the thing is there is no fiction here, just facts. Saying that is a narrative is downplaying the situation. And in the context of events, a civil war means a war between black people and white people in the US. Which is basically the race war. If you actually mean things like riots then yeah, well actually those have happened recently. Things were worse in the past, gun laws are nothing new and there was no mass chain reaction of violence like you are fearing.

About Art's question, I've seen that question be bought up numerous times and its always to deflect. The thing is a black person does not get killed by another black person for being black. It goes without saying that concerned parents also give their children "the talk" about other dangers they face in life. Now for someone living in a bad neighbourhood, the talk would involve to stay away from drugs, gangs, bad kids etc. Its about relevance at the end of the day. For a black kid growing up in the US, a relevant danger that they may face is a hate crime. So of course a parent would warn them of that. Just like they would warn them to be careful in crossing a road to avoid road fatalities. And if there is danger of them being part of the 96% statistic, the parents also give them the talk on whatever is relevant that could make them a part of the statistic.

Thats the thing, this is something minorities have to live with and survive through alongside the various dangers everyone else face in their lives.

[CBarca]

For the record, I didn't think anyones post was directed at me. I clarified precisely BECAUSE I agree with M99 about hate crimes being downplayed, and I wanted to be careful to distinguish my questions about a particular case from that overall trend.

[Myesyats]

So you're saying if Arbery was white they wouldn't even have chased after him?

I acknowledge now that I probably shouldn't even speak on that considering that I live in a 99.9% white environment.

But don't white rednecks kill other white rednecks all the time? That's what I imagine rural America looks like.

[McLewis]

Another one:

Breonna Taylor: Black healthcare worker 'shot dead at least eight times by police' in own home, lawsuit says

The articles has plenty of info, but here are the cliff notes:

- Louisville police attempted to execute a raid on a home they believe had drugs in it and was home to a drug dealer.

- Instead, they burst into the home of Breonna Taylor and her significant other, Kenneth Walker, waking both of them up.

- Not knowing who just broke into their house, Walker got his gun (legally registered I'm reading in various places, but can't confirm that) and fired at the intruders, unaware they were cops. He injured one of them.

- Cops returned fire, killing Breonna Taylor in her bed. She was shot 8 times.

- Cops then arrested Walker, who does have a record, for shooting and wounding one of them.

Taylor's mom has received no information from the Louisville Police Department. No video footage of the murder exists and this particular unit of police do not have to wear bodycams. This is largely why they haven't been charged.

The tragedy of this is that Taylor was an essential worker and first responder to the virus. Had one of these cops come down with the virus, she likely would've been driving them to the hospital. And yet in this timeline, they burst into her home and riddled her with bullets in her bed.

Black people are not safe anywhere. Not in our cars, not at work, not at home, not walking down the street, not jogging, not in college dorms. Nowhere.

So, I might be showing my ignorance here, but what does this particular case have to do with race? Unless the implication is that without body cams, we're going on the word of the police, and they're lying somehow.

I guess the reason I'm saying this is that I read through your cliff notes and I couldn't tell through the whole thing whether this murder was race related or not, except that the article says "Black healthcare worker". Surely if there was racial motivation, that would have come out somewhere in the cliff notes.

I mean a tragedy, yes. A horrid mistake of which I hope there are consequences for, absolutely. But if the cops break into a house thinking it's a drug dealer house and are met with resistance...of course they're going to fire back. No matter who it is.

Enlighten me here, McLewis.

There are 2 major elements here that (to me) are racially tinged:

- Kenneth Walker's gun was purchased legally and he had a permit for it. It made no difference, he was treated as if it was illegally purchased and he a common criminal. The cops effectively are blaming Breonna's death on him because he exercised his 2nd amendment right to bear arms. We are told over and over again in this country that the 2nd amendment is for all of us. That we all have a right to bear arms and defend our homes and families. That's what Walker was doing here. Just as with Philando Castile and Jemel Roberson, both legal gun owners who happened to be black and were killed by police, the NRA are silent. Yet when a white guy shoots up a concert, a school, a church or any other public place, they are the first to speak up and defend his right to have purchased those guns in the first place. The inconsistency from them falls heavily down racial lines, as it always has.

- The point of contention here will be whether the cops announced themselves prior to entry or even after entry. If Walker knew they were cops and fired at them anyway, that changes everything. However, neighbors say the cops did not announce themselves. They didn't even knock, they just broke down the door and stormed in. I say this admitting that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable in even the best of circumstances. So Walker's attorney will argue he was "standing his ground". I don't know how this iteration of the law works in Kentucky so I'll have to research, but for me it doesn't sound like he did anything illegal based on what's already been reported by multiple local and national sources. When attacked, cops will fire back, I get that, but the other racial element here is mistaking Walker for the drug dealer they already had in custody in the first place. He was a black guy with a gun and was shooting at them. They need not know anything else.

-----------------------------

Here's my bottom line here. When cops make huge mistakes like this, it is more often than not black and brown parents who are left to wait longer for justice than their white counterparts. For many, they never receive justice at all. That is perhaps the one thing about this particular shooting that is the most racist.

[McLewis]

Thanks Arq.

My mom is terrified for my brother and I honestly. She has been ever since we moved out on our own. My brother has had run-ins with cops before so she worries about him a bit more, as do I.

She had "the talk" with us when we were both teenagers. We didn't take it seriously. She heavily discouraged us from dating outside of our race (specifically white girls) as she feared their fathers, who were likely gun owners. Many of them were. Up until Trayvon Martin's murder, I didn't understand why she was so worried. That brought it into very sharp focus.

I can tell you this much. If I find myself on the wrong end of police brutality or a white vigilantism and I somehow survive, I will make it my personal mission to ensure they pay for what was done to me. In full. Ahmaud Arbery and so many others will never get that chance. That weighs heavily on me.

People make fun of "karens" who call the cops on black people just being black people, but these killings are the end product of those calls. Look at every shooting and there's almost always some anonymous (likely white) person who initiated the sequence of events with their racism and prejudice.

I don't live in America, there are hardly any black people in my home town, so maybe I'm showing my circles when asking this...

According to one statistic I found on the Internet - so not necessarily true; "from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of the killers of black murder victims were other African Americans."

I find it interesting that your mother would give you the talk to worry about white girls and their parents when the majority of violence that black people in America face comes from other black people?

It is largely down to geography and demographics. If you're talking about the South Side of Chicago or the East/West side of Detroit, then you would be right. Lots of black-on-black crime in these areas. Same for areas in LA, Atlanta, Houston, Philly, NYC, and other major cities with significant black and brown populations. Lots of data behind that I won't dispute.

However, I did not grow up in a predominantly black neighborhood. My neighborhood was predominantly white with little pockets of black families. The vast majority of my friends at school were white. I was the only black guy on both my football and lacrosse teams. I was the only black guy in my Japanese and German classes. The only black person in our school's band my senior year. I was actually the only person of color in my graduating class that year as well. That's literally how much whiteness I was surrounded by as I grew up. So this naturally meant that many of the girls I came into contact with as a teenager were white as well. Many of them didn't even live in town, but out in the rural areas just outside of town. Politically, these areas were conservative and very Republican whereas my neighborhood (despite being white) was more Democrat and slightly progressive. I didn't understand nor care about any of this at the time, but it explains why so many of the fathers of the white girls I dated were gun owners whereas my neighbors typically weren't. My mom grew up on the story of Emmett Till (if you've never heard of it, I encourage you to google it). It terrified black mothers. It terrified my mom given where we lived and who my brother and I were in constant contact with daily.

So black-on-black crime is a thing. However, given where I live now, it is not something I seriously fear and I didn't fear it when growing up as well. I have pretty much no first hand knowledge of it because of that. That is true of many black people in this country. I currently live in a literal melting pot (Blacks, whites, South Asians, Hispanics, East Asians, Middle Eastern, etc). Many are fairly well-off tech workers like me. If I lived in a lower income neighborhood, I would naturally worry more about being robbed or killed by someone who looks like me. I don't so I don't. That's me though. I have cousins who live in the roughest parts of Detroit (by choice, I would add) who live a very different experience. I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't uncomfortable when I head over to visit them, but I've not encountered anything that even approaches what is often depicted on TV or the news.

[McLewis]

For the record, I shouldn't have to preface, but McLewis I'm sure you know you and I feel very similarly about these things (except of course that me being who I am, I can never truly empathize with the way you feel, and have to feel).

I just raised questions about that particular case. I don't want people looking at my post thinking that I don't believe racial violence is a thing, since I clearly do and it's a massive problem

No worries, CB. Your questions were asked in good faith so I have no problem with them.

M99's whiny outrage was directed at me, it occurs every 2 months or so about minor things i say your own post was damn clear

Perhaps i should clarify mine out of respect for McLewis... Racist killing of black people does exist and it's scandalous, yet i think it's a slippery road to assume hate crime on every occasion. There has been huge riots in the past, in LA notably, and sometimes i fear it can blow out in a worse manner (this time with retaliation by whites) since it's legal to carry a gun in USA. Because everyone is given a specific tag, and the prejudices that come with it creates inner anger, obviously. No offense but america don't seem like a very united country.

Bs if my genuine concern is assimilated to KKK or whatever else of this sort

Well I think you need to look at what led to those riots though. The Watts riots in the 60s were aggravated by racial tensions between the predominantly white LAPD and California Highway Patrol and their policing of black and brown people. The LA riots in the 90s were sparked by white cops visciously beating an unarmed black man over a simple traffic stop that escalated. The Detroit riots in the 60s were sparked by white cops (and later the Michigan National Guard) killing a number of black people after breaking up an illegal after-hours party in the city. Just recently, the Ferguson riots were sparked by a white cop killing a black teenager. I could go on and on.

There is a significant history of black and brown citizens in this country being policed differently by white cops than white citizens. The data does not always show this because it can't quantify the mindset of cops and how they view black people in general.  It has been this way since the end of slavery. Arbery's murder is essentially a lynching primarily because his murderers were not cops. Lynchings are the most widely recognized of hate crimes. Lynchings are why we even have hate crime laws in this country. To better understand this, the past offers answers: It was shockingly common for white private citizens to lynch black citizens over absolutely nothing. For many, it was even a spectacle. Families would come out and picnic to watch the lynching as the black man (or sometimes woman) was slowly and brutally tortured before being shot, hanged and displayed proudly. The whites would even take pictures with their corpses, posing in front of it (think of hunters posing in front of the carcass of a recent kill. That comes from a feeling of impunity and a comfort that nothing will happen to whites when they do this.  Had Arbery lived, what happened to him would still be classified as a hate crime because they targeted him based on his skin color, without knowing anything else about him. They assumed that because he was black, he was up to no good and that it was their responsibility to take the law into their own hands. That is not only vigilantism, that is a hate crime. The same would be true if he was white and gay and they decided to chase him down and "make a citizen's arrest".

[elitedam]

No-knock warrants are batshit insane.

[sportsczy]

edit: not the best piece I wrote. Didn't convey what i was trying to say well.... so deleted

[Hapless_Hans]

what minority are you if you don't mind me asking? And are you talking about the US or France? Because, if I have understood rightly, you're something like French-born American or so? Or French-American?

[Freeza]

what minority are you if you don't mind me asking? And are you talking about the US or France? Because, if I have understood rightly, you're something like French-born American or so? Or French-American?

Old, rich people

[sportsczy]

what minority are you if you don't mind me asking? And are you talking about the US or France? Because, if I have understood rightly, you're something like French-born American or so? Or French-American?

Middle eastern...  Iran specifically.  Mom was born in France, but her family is Iranian too.  Father was born in Iran.  We all lived in Iran until the revolution (I was 4 years old) and had to flee on a moment's notice because the regime was killing/jailing my entire family for both religious and political reasons.

I went to live with my mom first in France near her family since I had citizenship.  My father and his family moved to the US.  I moved to the US to finish high school and go to college.

That's my brief history.

[Hapless_Hans]

Nah, given Sports affiliation to Marseille and his love for Zidane I would guess maybe French-Algerian turned US citizen but I don't want to presume

edit:nvm

[Hapless_Hans]

what minority are you if you don't mind me asking? And are you talking about the US or France? Because, if I have understood rightly, you're something like French-born American or so? Or French-American?

Middle eastern...  Iran specifically.  Mom was born in France, but her family is Iranian too.  Father was born in Iran.  We all lived in Iran until the revolution (I was 4 years old) and had to flee on a moment's notice because the regime was killing/jailing my entire family for both religious and political reasons.

I went to live with my mom first in France near her family since I had citizenship.  My father and his family moved to the US.  I moved to the US to finish high school and go to college.

That's my brief history.

Ah right I see. That is interesting, and great to hear. Thanks for sharing!

Do you have memories of your early Childhood in pre-revolution Iran? Have you been (able to go) back?

[The Demon of Carthage]

@McLewis, do you happen to know if the policemen who did the raid had body cameras on? I'm not sure but I thought they were required to wear them during raids because the chance of something going sideways is high and the footage can be used in court to either dismiss or validate charges.

I'm asking because there's a very important detail here that if clarified will change this case entirely:

1. If the police identified themselves and he still reached for the gun that's on him.

2. If they didn't identify themselves, then they shouldn't blame him for not cooperating. For all he knew, they were just burglars or thugs.

[sportsczy]

what minority are you if you don't mind me asking? And are you talking about the US or France? Because, if I have understood rightly, you're something like French-born American or so? Or French-American?

Middle eastern...  Iran specifically.  Mom was born in France, but her family is Iranian too.  Father was born in Iran.  We all lived in Iran until the revolution (I was 4 years old) and had to flee on a moment's notice because the regime was killing/jailing my entire family for both religious and political reasons.

I went to live with my mom first in France near her family since I had citizenship.  My father and his family moved to the US.  I moved to the US to finish high school and go to college.

That's my brief history.

Ah right I see. That is interesting, and great to hear. Thanks for sharing!

Do you have memories of your early Childhood in pre-revolution Iran? Have you been (able to go) back?

Very fuzzy ones. Remember my father taking me through a drive through car wash and getting frustrated because my bed was surrounded by bars looool.

Can't go back and never have been back. Our family name is on the "send to jail immediately" list.

[McLewis]

No-knock warrants are batshit insane.

I suppose the logic behind them is to catch the bad guys off balance, which results in faster neutralization of any threats while minimizing harm to the officers executing the warrant. That's the prevailing theory anyway.

A lot depends on the accuracy of the information though. When that information is wrong, at best the cops bust into an empty home. At worst, what happened to Breonna Taylor.

@McLewis, do you happen to know if the policemen who did the raid had body cameras on? I'm not sure but I thought they were required to wear them during raids because the chance of something going sideways is high and the footage can be used in court to either dismiss or validate charges.

I'm asking because there's a very important detail here that if clarified will change this case entirely:

1. If the police identified themselves and he still reached for the gun that's on him.

2. If they didn't identify themselves, then they shouldn't blame him for not cooperating. For all he knew, they were just burglars  or thugs.

As I understand it, this specific unit of the Louisville Metro Police Department (LMPD) were not required to wear bodycams. This requirement, in general, is left largely up to the varies counties and municipalities throughout each state. There is no uniform requirement that comes from the federal government (States Rights and all that) so the result is that you're going to have some police forces (such as the NYPD, Chicago PD and LAPD) that must wear bodycams as they are heavily scrutinized and much smaller forces like the LMPD, who can get away with it a lot easier. No one knows why this specific unit isn't required to wear body cams though. The LMPD have provided no explanation for it. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a point of contention if charges are filed against these cops, who are currently on administrative leave, and a trial happens.

Right now, it's the word of the officers vs the word of the neighbors. The officers say they announced themselves and were fired on. The neighbors said they heard no announcement and only heard the gunfire.

[sportsczy]

We went from this to Trump...

[Hapless_Hans]

Obama's problem as president was that he was a pussy

he needed to be like that to get elected - he needed to get away as far as possible from the "angry black man" stereotype that is so prohibitive of black men's career opportunities

and it's not an unlikeable personality to have anyway

but he kept governing like a moderator, not realizing he was actually appeasing raging lunatics and thus giving them massive power

he should have taken their fucking guns away, then they wouldn't be still able to kill Afro-americans as they please now. But he wanted to be "everyone's" president, even of people who wanted to see him lynched and nothing else

[Pedram]

^That's the biggest problem with Obama type Democrats Hans, they still believe in this West Wing fairytale of reasonable republican, look what they did to Obama when he offered Merrick Garland as the middle of the road compromise on the vacant SC seat.

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