Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

@Betty
Well, in my house (it has several apartments here), I have neighbours from Brazil, Portugal, Spain and Greece. They are completely integrated here, and it is mainly during football World Cup or now the Euros that you see flags of the different countries hanging out of the windows (hey, I have a German flag up, too - I really love it when everything is decorated so colourfully).

rwo power wrote:@Babun

Your numbers are still not correct. There are 65.1 mio people in the UK, but only around 46 mio people are allowed to vote. With your number you also put blame on those who were not allowed to participate in the first place.

Wait, from people who were allowed to vote, the percentage of the youngsters who voted was around 32% while the ones over 65 went with 85% participation. Of course, kids and newly arrived migrants couldn't vote. There is no way, there're 20 Million British expats, 4 million at most.

rwo power wrote:@Babun
Outside the UK, Britons who have lived abroad for more than 15 years were not eligible to vote either, even though the results of the referendum could affect them, too.

The rules were set beforehand, one has to accept it. I didn't see complaints from thousands of expats about their non participation. In the end, if you agree to set rules (not protesting = agreeing) then you should accept the outcome, simple as that.

Betty La Fea wrote:I was just laying in bed thinking.

How do nations accept people from neighboring places coming in to their country? Like Germany,UK,France for example? Are they accepted as normal by the average person? It just seems amazing thinking there are pretty much open borders between nations which were destroying each other in the lifetime of people I know. Its like Europe always finds a way to bounce forward quick. I'd never want to live there, but looking from the outside its absolutely amazing.

It's mostly bantz concerning the western nations; everyone hates the French though.

1 British pound = 1.29505 U.S. dollars now
from
1 British pound = 1.440257 U.S. in January..

Phritz wrote:

Betty La Fea wrote:I was just laying in bed thinking.

How do nations accept people from neighboring places coming in to their country? Like Germany,UK,France for example? Are they accepted as normal by the average person? It just seems amazing thinking there are pretty much open borders between nations which were destroying each other in the lifetime of people I know. Its like Europe always finds a way to bounce forward quick. I'd never want to live there, but looking from the outside its absolutely amazing.

It's mostly bantz concerning the western nations; everyone hates the French though. true:lol:

UK want to re-introduce piracy, colonialization and invading outher countries again!  

Not everyone is gloomy about the UK economy post-Brexit vote.

Mark Price, the UK trade and investment minister and former Waitrose boss, is very upbeat about Britain’s future.

Speaking on an official visit to Hong Kong and China, Lord Price said the outcome of the referendum handed the UK and rest of the world the opportunity "to create a second Elizabethan Golden Age" of trade and investment.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2016/jul/06/brexit-fears-pound-slides-stock-markets-business-live

Yeah I'm going to fight to become a "free country" just to prevent another country from being free and lording over them

On a serious note, that's far fetched. Even if they pursue that agenda, the world will never let them do that. None of our allies will support that, for sure.

Phritz wrote:

Betty La Fea wrote:I was just laying in bed thinking.

How do nations accept people from neighboring places coming in to their country? Like Germany,UK,France for example? Are they accepted as normal by the average person? It just seems amazing thinking there are pretty much open borders between nations which were destroying each other in the lifetime of people I know. Its like Europe always finds a way to bounce forward quick. I'd never want to live there, but looking from the outside its absolutely amazing.

It's mostly bantz concerning the western nations; everyone hates the French though.

Is this because they spell and pronounce differently?
My teacher used to say if u come across any French word, think about the ways that it can be pronounced and use the oddest one.

The UK will have to hire Brexit negotiatiors from abroad

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/the-uk-doesnt-have-enough-skilled-trade-negotiators-for-brexit-so-were-going-to-have-to-hire-foreigners--ZyxdleNdBrW

IMO there are three things likely to happen

1) We wait till 2 years and by then there will either be a 2nd referendum or the 1st will be overruled by the MPs

2) We trigger article 50 but stay in the EU unofficially via single market making going out of europe...useless.

3) We trigger article 50 and opt out of any trade treaty with europe and join world trade treaty instead.

2nd is the most likely outcome at this point with 1st being the most unlikely. All depends on who is our next PM

Re #3 - what exactly do you think is the world trade agreement and who is part of it? In addition to EU, there are agreements with 2 /3 countries, there is a Pan pacific agreement, There is a a south american agreement, there are various agreements with some countries to and from asia, but that's about it.

RE #2, In what world, do you suggest EU will accept UK in the EU unofficially? There are far more ramifications than what market or trade treaty you are part of? Start by analyzing what business / corporations / financial centres, EU drug approval agencies etc (primarily based in London) will be leaving.

and re #1, do you really think you can keep all the business and corporations in London with all this uncertainty for 2 years?

The amount of BS that has been spewed by the leave campaign is mind boggling and even more appalling is the nativity of the general public.

Well, as WTO rules are the default kind of trade rules that are in effect as long as there are no specific trade agreements between two states, this will be the way things are with most countries unless the UK finds the time, the negotiators and the willingness of the other side(s) to get into talks.

As soon as the UK want something more sophisticated, they need to start specific negotiations which might take years, depending on the complexity of the agreements. And as the article BC linked showed, the UK don't really have the people to go about these things smoothly, particularly as the former government(s) cut the public services (where you'd find people with such skills) drastically.

If with "staying in the EU unofficially" you mean that the UK will become an EEA member like Norway, this means you fully have to accept the 4 freedoms, plus most of the EU rulings/laws and you have to pay about 75% (or so) of what the UK originally would have to pay for EU membership (as this is calculated per capita).

Funnily this would mean (as the UK rebate that Maggie Thatcher negotiated would be null and void) that you would have to pay roughly 300 mio GBP/week instead of the current 276 mio GBP/week and you would not get EU subsidiaries to support structural weak areas or other EU funding (which currently make up around 115 mio GBP/week).

Gove eliminated

Both Gove and Boris dreamt of being the next PM but both 1st ones to go lmao.

Our next PM will be between Theresa May and Andrea Leadsom.

2016: Hillary for US, May for UK, all UN secretary general candidates with a chance are women... The year of the women?

And both are as bad as each other lol.

No one wants theresa May as the PM.

No one wanted to see Cersei on the Iron Throne but we got her, innit?

I have one question guys:

How the hell can you put the population to vote on something like this? It is external politics, common people don't have knowledge on this matter, they are not aware of many facts. At least, the majority of them (almost all of them). Why would you do that?

Didn't they have another choice? If not, fight for one!

Well, the vote was initiated by Cameron to cement his job as Prime Minister. He thought that he'd get a sizeable majority of the people to vote "remain", but his idea backfired greatly. The situation got worse as beforehand he promised to act on the result despite it being just an "advisory referendum" by law.

His opposition set up a huge media campaign (supported by Robert Murdoch who owns some of the biggest tabloids and who published a lot of demagogic articles as he is vehemently against the EU as he has no influence in Brussels which annoys him greatly) claiming the EU was responsible for practically all the internal problems the UK government caused themselves.

They managed to stir up the disgruntled people who found it easier to believe the lies than to research some more objective information themselves. This was helped as they just shot down all warning of the remain side as "fearmongering" or "threats" and they advised the public to "not believe the experts".

Obviously the result was a surprise by everybody as even the campaigners for leave (other than Farage, but he is utterly nuts anyway) didn't really expect or even want to win. Now that the shit hit the fan big time, the cowards who caused the whole mess decided to steal themselves out of the responsibility (Cameron already announced his resignation ASAP, Johnson said "thanks but no thanks", too, Farage decided to resign as head of UKIP, Gove considered to go as PM candidate, but was voted out by his party, and the Labour party are infighting big time, too.

So much for direct democracy in important decisions that the majority of people have no clue about (and are fed blatant lies to boot).

It was more than telling that several hours *after* the referendum's result got out, Google published that "What is the EU?" and "What is Brexit?" were the most searched terms...

I thought only Romanian politicians are capable of stupid things from the EU countries.

We are not alone!

Later Edit: By the way, thanks for the info provided! Couldn't find anything so specific like this on the web to clarify the situation!

Well, IMO most politicians are highly dubious. Don't you know the saying "Those who want to rule shouldn't, while those who should rule don't want to."

Hurr durr Rupert Murdoch hurr durr

Not even all his papers came out supporting Brexit. It's a bit worrying when people develop strange fixations on particular individuals, as if Murdoch runs the world

Seriously RWO you don't seem to care about truth and logic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/06/27/were-brits-really-googling-what-is-the-eu-after-voting-to-leave/

Well, it was obviously a high number of the proportion of the search times and that is IMO bad enough...

And yeah, I know that Murdoch bought The Times, too, and I was somewhat astonished that he allowed them to support the remain side, although it would probably been "too much" if this paper would have chimed in, too.

Vote Leave Watch aims to hold MPs to account over Brexit promises

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/vote-leave-watch-hold-brexit-campaigners-to-account-promises?CMP=share_btn_tw

DuringTheWar wrote:Hurr durr Rupert Murdoch hurr durr

Not even all his papers came out supporting Brexit. It's a bit worrying when people develop strange fixations on particular individuals, as if Murdoch runs the world

Seriously RWO you don't seem to care about truth and logic:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/06/27/were-brits-really-googling-what-is-the-eu-after-voting-to-leave/

People always tend to have fixations and also addictions. She only wanted to be useful, but even if it is true that she didn't really care about truth or logic, for me it was an answer which led to form an opinion that I could only form from more point of views.

Debbie Ford in her book, The Dark Side of the Light Chasers is talking about human beings naturally doing bad things because of many different aspects, only because they have some problems (all human beings have their personality problems), usually coming from the childhood. She said that people do bad things from time to time, at different levels (some people swear, some people lie, some people steal a lot of money and some people kill.

One day you are the nicest person in the world and the other day you can find yourself lying to your parents, even if you know that you aren't a liar. We develop many identities, that's why people change their mind a lot. And it isn't a bad thing, on the contrary, it's a thing to embrace and also our duty to try to explore and develop ourselves with the idea of embracing the human nature and the possibilities that we can do wrong or make mistakes.

Thanks for the intervention, "DuringTheWar"!

In conclusion, thank you again RWO for the information provided and about that quote, I believe I've heard it before.

Have those of you that were for the brexit, read any of the economic effects this vote has already created. I'm referring to the economists view and such indicators, not the politicans.

For all the separtists / socialist minded around the world, you would do well to pay attention to this economic collapse. The separtists and their politicans, most of whom have no economics knowledge at all, like to say this is just scare tactics and ignore the economic realities. Well, this time it (economic deteriorization) is happening right before your eyes!

Here's a Guardian article on the "Brexit fallout and what it means for the UK consumer":
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/brexit-fallout-what-it-means-for-the-uk-consumer