Re: Guardiola has failed Bayern Munich

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 12:04 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:

Look at it this way if you will.

Pep took over a team that won the league in April(!), a team that was already utterly dominant BEFORE PEP TOOK OVER (because people seem to have forgotten this), signed their biggest title rival's future and current best player, signed the best striker in the league (from their only title rivals of course), outspent all their other rivals by millions and millions of euros, so tell me again what an impressive feat this is.

The expectations will be the same for Ancelotti, winning the Bundesliga is the absolute minimum for Bayern or you get sacked. If Pep won the PL three times in a row with Man City, that's impressive. Same with La Liga, that'd be impressive with any team. Most here make fun of the Bundesliga daily but also consider it a great achievement that Pep won the league while having the best squad, the best finances and the psychological advantage over the rest of the league. Make up your mind, lads. It's either one or the other.
david moyes took over a title winning team at man u.

Ok?

I have a bottle of vinegar to go with that salt Laughing

by BarrileteCosmico Mon May 09, 2016 12:07 am

urbaNRoots wrote:Look at it this way if you will.

Pep took over a team that won the league in April(!), a team that was already utterly dominant BEFORE PEP TOOK OVER (because people seem to have forgotten this), signed their biggest title rival's future and current best player, signed the best striker in the league (from their only title rivals of course), outspent all their other rivals by millions and millions of euros, so tell me again what an impressive feat this is.

The expectations will be the same for Ancelotti, winning the Bundesliga is the absolute minimum for Bayern or you get sacked. If Pep won the PL three times in a row with Man City, that's impressive. Same with La Liga, that'd be impressive with any team. Most here make fun of the Bundesliga daily but also consider it a great achievement that Pep won the league while having the best squad, the best finances and the psychological advantage over the rest of the league. Make up your mind, lads. It's either one or the other.

Bayern only have a net spend of about 80m euros in the past 3 years. That might be ridiculous for their bundi rivals but not for the european competition, that's pretty much the net transfer spend of a team like Barca or Real in a single season. And let's not act like he got his every wish. Pep asked for Neymar and got Gotze, which are not in the same class of players, for instance. That treble Bayern team had an aging squad that peaked, we have known for at least 2 seasons that Robbery is past it, for instance, and yet Robben would have started had he been fit in 2016 (and of course he wasn't).

I'm not saying that Pep met all the expectations, he didn't, but at the same time I wouldn't say he failed either. Bayern have never been as consistently considered a contender for the CL as over the past 3 years. It feels like in many instances Pep just didn't have that extra luck champion teams need (Muller penalty, year of tons of injuries, etc).

by urbaNRoots Mon May 09, 2016 12:07 am

sportsczy wrote:That's just not based on reality Urbie... Heynckes won with the 4 best players on the team being Piggy, Robben, Ribery and Lahm. The DM was also Luis Gustavo. The only holdover from that team are Neuer, Lahm, Alaba and Boateng in terms of starters. Basically the defense and keeper other than Benatia. The entire midfield and attack was revamped... as well as the tactics.

So to me... you're not comparing apples to apples here. He didn't win or lose with the same team at all the past 2 seasons.

But it's Pep himself who made these changes... for the better or worse. It helped extend the dominance in the league but weakened the team in Europe.

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 12:11 am

we have all had a bit of banter in this thread but come on people is this thread for real. the guy has won it all many times. when he loses people call him shit. when he wins people say the opposition are shit. lets be honest here there is not 1 club in the world that wouldent take him.

by urbaNRoots Mon May 09, 2016 12:19 am

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Look at it this way if you will.

Pep took over a team that won the league in April(!), a team that was already utterly dominant BEFORE PEP TOOK OVER (because people seem to have forgotten this), signed their biggest title rival's future and current best player, signed the best striker in the league (from their only title rivals of course), outspent all their other rivals by millions and millions of euros, so tell me again what an impressive feat this is.

The expectations will be the same for Ancelotti, winning the Bundesliga is the absolute minimum for Bayern or you get sacked. If Pep won the PL three times in a row with Man City, that's impressive. Same with La Liga, that'd be impressive with any team. Most here make fun of the Bundesliga daily but also consider it a great achievement that Pep won the league while having the best squad, the best finances and the psychological advantage over the rest of the league. Make up your mind, lads. It's either one or the other.

Bayern only have a net spend of about 80m euros in the past 3 years. That might be ridiculous for their bundi rivals but not for the european competition, that's pretty much the net transfer spend of a team like Barca or Real in a single season. And let's not act like he got his every wish. Pep asked for Neymar and got Gotze, which are not in the same class of players, for instance. That treble Bayern team had an aging squad that peaked, we have known for at least 2 seasons that Robbery is past it, for instance, and yet Robben would have started had he been fit in 2016 (and of course he wasn't).

I'm not saying that Pep met all the expectations, he didn't, but at the same time I wouldn't say he failed either. Bayern have never been as consistently considered a contender for the CL as over the past 3 years. It feels like in many instances Pep just didn't have that extra luck champion teams need (Muller penalty, year of tons of injuries, etc).

Yeah I was talking about the spending compared to the rest of the league because we were talking about Pep's dominance in the league..

As for Europe, to me that's the reason why I don't rate his Bayern tenure so highly. So he can only beat teams that are less resourceful as his? As soon as he faces a team that can match his squad, it's ok to lose? How does this make Pep not any different to all the other great managers? Shouldn't his tactical superiority give him an advantage to Luis Enrique and Ancelotti who have the same spending potential but are not tactical geniuses? Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. Why do these rules count for Pep but not any other manager?

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 12:22 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:Look at it this way if you will.

Pep took over a team that won the league in April(!), a team that was already utterly dominant BEFORE PEP TOOK OVER (because people seem to have forgotten this), signed their biggest title rival's future and current best player, signed the best striker in the league (from their only title rivals of course), outspent all their other rivals by millions and millions of euros, so tell me again what an impressive feat this is.

The expectations will be the same for Ancelotti, winning the Bundesliga is the absolute minimum for Bayern or you get sacked. If Pep won the PL three times in a row with Man City, that's impressive. Same with La Liga, that'd be impressive with any team. Most here make fun of the Bundesliga daily but also consider it a great achievement that Pep won the league while having the best squad, the best finances and the psychological advantage over the rest of the league. Make up your mind, lads. It's either one or the other.

Bayern only have a net spend of about 80m euros in the past 3 years. That might be ridiculous for their bundi rivals but not for the european competition, that's pretty much the net transfer spend of a team like Barca or Real in a single season. And let's not act like he got his every wish. Pep asked for Neymar and got Gotze, which are not in the same class of players, for instance. That treble Bayern team had an aging squad that peaked, we have known for at least 2 seasons that Robbery is past it, for instance, and yet Robben would have started had he been fit in 2016 (and of course he wasn't).

I'm not saying that Pep met all the expectations, he didn't, but at the same time I wouldn't say he failed either. Bayern have never been as consistently considered a contender for the CL as over the past 3 years. It feels like in many instances Pep just didn't have that extra luck champion teams need (Muller penalty, year of tons of injuries, etc).

Yeah I was talking about the spending compared to the rest of the league because we were talking about Pep's dominance in the league..

As for Europe, to me that's the reason why I don't rate his Bayern tenure so highly. So he can only beat teams that are less resourceful as his? As soon as he faces a team that can match his squad, it's ok to lose? How does this make Pep not any different to all the other great managers? Shouldn't his tactical superiority give him an advantage to Luis Enrique and Ancelotti who have the same spending potential but are not tactical geniuses? Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. Why do these rules count for Pep but not any other manager?

so if AM win the champions lge does that mean all other teams and managers are shit.

by urbaNRoots Mon May 09, 2016 12:42 am

Unique wrote: so if AM win the champions lge does that mean all other teams and managers are shit.

If you say so.

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 12:52 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote: so if AM win the champions lge does that mean all other teams and managers are shit.

If you say so.

I didn't say so. but looking at some of your posts it looks like you are saying so. lets face it mate arsenal get whooped by far worst teams than AM. and with far less resources. you of all people should know football don't work like that. Wink

by urbaNRoots Mon May 09, 2016 12:57 am

Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote: so if AM win the champions lge does that mean all other teams and managers are shit.

If you say so.
I didn't say so. but looking at some of your posts it looks like you are saying so. lets face it mate arsenal get whooped by far worst teams than AM. and with far less resources. you of all people should know football don't work like that.

No, you are assuming that I said that.

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 1:01 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:

If you say so.
I didn't say so. but looking at some of your posts it looks like you are saying so. lets face it mate arsenal get whooped by far worst teams than AM. and with far less resources. you of all people should know football don't work like that.

No, you are assuming that I said that.

Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. that is what you said. so if he is crap for losing to them. if they win the whole thing then all other teams and managers must also be rubbish. or does that only count for pep

by guest_07 Mon May 09, 2016 1:05 am

Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote:
I didn't say so. but looking at some of your posts it looks like you are saying so. lets face it mate arsenal get whooped by far worst teams than AM. and with far less resources. you of all people should know football don't work like that.

No, you are assuming that I said that.
Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. that is what you said. so if he is crap for losing to them if they win the whole thing then all other teams and managers must also be rubbish. of does that only count for pep

there is no logic in gl, lol

by urbaNRoots Mon May 09, 2016 1:08 am

Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote:
I didn't say so. but looking at some of your posts it looks like you are saying so. lets face it mate arsenal get whooped by far worst teams than AM. and with far less resources. you of all people should know football don't work like that.

No, you are assuming that I said that.
Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. that is what you said. so if he is crap for losing to them. if they win the whole thing then all other teams and managers must also be rubbish. or does that only count for pep

Again you are assuming things, learn to comprehend

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 1:09 am

guest_07 wrote:
Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:

No, you are assuming that I said that.
Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. that is what you said. so if he is crap for losing to them if they win the whole thing then all other teams and managers must also be rubbish. of does that only count for pep

there is no logic in gl, lol

true. but his logic is pep has failed because he went out to AM who have less resources than Bayern. so by that he must also think that all other managers and teams are failures if AM win the champions lge.

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 1:15 am

urbaNRoots wrote:
Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:

No, you are assuming that I said that.
Hell this season he went out to a team that is clearly far less resourceful. that is what you said. so if he is crap for losing to them. if they win the whole thing then all other teams and managers must also be rubbish. or does that only count for pep

Again you are assuming things, learn to comprehend

so what is it exactly you are trying to say. it looks to me like your saying pep should not have lost to AM because Bayern have more resources.

by Unique Mon May 09, 2016 1:35 am

only 2 managers in history have won more champions lge titles than pep. Carlo Ancelotti 3 titles in 20 years. Bob Paisley 3 titles in 9 years.

BarcelonaLa Liga: 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11
Copa del Rey: 2008–09, 2011–12
Supercopa de España: 2009, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League: 2008–09, 2010–11
UEFA Super Cup: 2009, 2011
FIFA Club World Cup: 2009, 2011

Bayern MunichBundesliga: 2013–14, 2014–15, 2015–16
DFB-Pokal: 2013–14
UEFA Super Cup: 2013
FIFA Club World Cup: 2013

pep in 8 years. jesus Christ if this man is not a great manager then great managers don't exist :facepalm:

by Winter is Coming Mon May 09, 2016 2:04 am

halamadrid2 wrote:@ winter, i suppose we have different tastes on this particular subject. Maybe because you lived through your best years with him. Personally for me as long as you dont play shite on a stick football i have no problem with supporting you. What irks me however is when someone calls one approach better than the other.

I agree, but my statement was more general also, not just off of Pep tbh in terms of style of play. The thing is some people support a style of play like they support a team, so they'll always defend one over the others and glorify it, at the end whatever works for you works for you, many aren't a fan of Simeone style, but it works, like wise Pep, Mou, Fergie, etc.

by Winter is Coming Mon May 09, 2016 2:10 am

Doc wrote:It reads exactly how James acted when Brendan was the bees knees to becoming the scum of the earth or Mole's love for Pardew turning like milk. Hope springs eternal, stuff like that. Don't blame their initial reaction honestly, Pep is really a fantastic manager. But like anything that doesn't live up to expectations comes what is taking place now. Which bodes the question: what exactly were their expectations?

The question is obviously CL is an expectation, even BM never won the treble it wouldn't change the fact they'd still expect that from him, but for people to solely say that his reason there is a flawed. Had that been the case his 5-0 thumping against RM should've been sacked, if not that losing 3-1 to Porto, if not that then losing 5-3 to Barca, but yet they actually wanted to extend his contract, so clearly they were happy with him. Franz quoted something from the Bible of how Pep and BM were destined together or something despite being a critic Laughing

by sportsczy Mon May 09, 2016 3:13 am

The one thing i don't like about Pep is that he left despite not reaching his goals. I think he owed it to the Bayern fans to stay on until he really felt he couldn't achieve a CL win. 3 years is not enough for the type of project Pep undertakes. It takes 2 years just to get his players and system completely ingrained. Was there tension that caused him to leave?

by Winter is Coming Mon May 09, 2016 3:28 am

Pep is like a closed book at time when it comes to this, he just doesn't want to stay long term, if he wasn't with us it won't be with anyone else. However we know he's a drama queen, still think he's not happy without that Neymar signing Laughing

@Doc

I find this interesting article

Bayern were on top of the world when Guardiola arrived. His task – to make Bayern even better – was not an enviable one, but if one man could do it, Guardiola was "the one."

He relished that challenge, too. Part of the reason why he left Barcelona to begin with, after winning two Champions League titles and making Barca the envy of the football world, was to prove he could do it somewhere else.

Aesthetically, Guardiola even succeeded. The football he installed at Bayern, born out of his furious obsessiveness, attention to detail and tactical acumen, the club nor Germany had ever seen before. Bayern strangled the life out of opponents with their coach's ultra-possessive style, yet entertained fans with phenomenal combinations and brilliant team goals. Guardiola took the best of Heynckes' ideas, successfully infused his own philosophy, and turned Bayern into the most dominant force in German football history. He did push them to a new level.

But the goal wasn't to be the most dominant force in Germany. It was to be the most dominant force in the world. Setting the bar that high may have been unfair, but it was Guardiola and Bayern who were the ones that placed it there.

and this from a BM fan on one of the forums

Frankly, no member of the board has ever said that. It was, however, said that he was hired to take Bayern to the next level. The next level might not have meant winning the CL, just tactically to the next level, and on that account, weather we like it or not, Pep has succeeded.

By many accounts your players seemed to enjoy their time under him and learned a lot.

So obviously he did take you guys to the next level tactically and is leaving behind a squad that's rejuvenated to a certain degree instead of a bunch of oldies that will decline rapidly soon.

Now just because certain transfers like Bernat and the German Messi Gotze didn't turn out so well, doesn't mean he did a bad job in that department either.

In some ways yes, and in some ways no. We could say that positioning should be better once the defensive line switches to a normal one, Pep has also reinvented positions for some of our players, or to phrase it batter, has made us realize that some players can be very useful in different positions in case of emergencies.

Now the question of a successful or a failed stint depends on which point your looking it from. I said when Pep was hired that if he delivers two semis and a CL title I'd consider it a success. Unfortunately he hasn't delivered that. Some of the members wanted him to either win the CL in his first year, some wanted us not to get humiliated like we did by Real, and some just wanted him to build on on what Jupp had left behind.

The truth is we don't really know what the board wanted from him. They will probably brand his tenure a success, and it was so in many ways, but we will never know what they actually demanded from him. Considering the fact that he hasn't been fired, I can assume that winning the CL wasn't a mandatory assignment from the board.

by M99 Mon May 09, 2016 3:56 am

Unique wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Look at it this way... from 2000 through 2013, Bayern won 7 of the 13 Bundi titles and never more than 2 in a row.... Pep has gone 3 of 3. The 4 in a row including Heynckes' title is a Bundi record.

But don't let facts get in the way

Can't believe I have to defend Pep and Bayern. I feel a bit dirty tbh. But this was ridiculous.

Look at it this way if you will.

Pep took over a team that won the league in April(!), a team that was already utterly dominant BEFORE PEP TOOK OVER (because people seem to have forgotten this), signed their biggest title rival's future and current best player, signed the best striker in the league (from their only title rivals of course), outspent all their other rivals by millions and millions of euros, so tell me again what an impressive feat this is.

The expectations will be the same for Ancelotti, winning the Bundesliga is the absolute minimum for Bayern or you get sacked. If Pep won the PL three times in a row with Man City, that's impressive. Same with La Liga, that'd be impressive with any team. Most here make fun of the Bundesliga daily but also consider it a great achievement that Pep won the league while having the best squad, the best finances and the psychological advantage over the rest of the league. Make up your mind, lads. It's either one or the other.
david moyes took over a title winning team at man u.

Saying Pep is Moyes's level is a bit too far IMO

by Doc Mon May 09, 2016 3:59 am

Right, thank you Winter. I was looking for something like that. I always wondered if even the Bayern fans knew what exactly the board wanted from Pep and what they meant by "next level". To all we know, Pep achieved everything the board asked of him or maybe he did not.

My own personal take is that the board really wanted the UCL title but was more or less pleased with the work he has done and whether one likes or it, he really did good work. Left a legit core for Carlo to utilise, players improved (Muller, Alaba, Lahm, whoever else) under him, the team itself has more tactical insight and whatever else you wanna wax lyrical.

Losing 3 semis in a row by similar sets of sucker punches is kinda laughable though. Even as a Pep fan boy, I really can't see how that can be defended. A man of his esteem thinking should not have been caught by the same act twice far less for 3 times (if one thinks Barcelona did the same as Atleti and Madrid which I don't think is the case but whatever).

His tenure at City would be quite, um, challenging if I can put it like that. He won't have the legendary players from Barcelona or the intelligence of Bayern players. Nope. He would have, as Nick wrote, an headless chicken in Sterling and a guy named Fernando and Fernando Junior (Fernandinho).

by M99 Mon May 09, 2016 4:01 am

Legit dying at this rofl

http://www.bayernzone.com/discussions/3069-coach-pep-guardiola-369.html#post467225

by alexjanosik Mon May 09, 2016 6:29 am

halamadrid2 wrote:@WIC & Alex, early knock out of Semi means them same thing. No trophy and you dont celebrate not winning a trophy. Maybe Pep can celebrate it on a personal level but as a fan that is nothing to be happy about. He isnt a failure and I dont think that was what RG meant. A failure would be someone winning nothing in the 3 years and that is clearly not true

It is not even about the squad, it is about the tactics he chose to use which answers your question Alex, if he doesnt progress with his team using the approach that he came up with then there is nothing to praise. For example would you praise his time at Barca if he made you play tiki taka and you won nothing in the years he was there?? At the end of the day it is only about winning and if you play nice football while at it then that is just a bonus. If you dont win anything then the football you came up with will quickly be forgotten

That is where we differ. I dont watch the game for the pleasure of winning. Nor do I support the team because we win. I support the team because we play the Cruyff way. Winning is secondary. As long as we play the Cruyff way and the players give their all, I am happy and satisfied. Cant ask for anything more. We played the best football that I have ever had the pleasure of watching under Pep. Gave me immeasurable joy. Winning was just the cherry on top. Even if we won nothing during those years, I would still call those years a success.
The masterclass against Arsenal at the Emirates still remains the nadir of footballing excellence. It is not humanely possible to play better. And yet, if we go by results, that match was a failure as we drew. I dont classify that game as a failure. I classify that game as a resounding success as Pep took us to unmatched highs that night.

by Kebab Mon May 09, 2016 9:50 am

Argument still going on.predict 14 pages

by Dredg Tue May 10, 2016 12:36 pm

Guardiola is a lie.

He's always on top squads with a huge amount of money to signings. Barça, Bayern, and City are always a serious candidate to their league titles.

He destroyed one of the most powerful Bayerns with their no ending posession/passing-nowhere style, IMO.

by futbol Tue May 10, 2016 3:51 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
halamadrid2 wrote:@WIC & Alex, early knock out of Semi means them same thing. No trophy and you dont celebrate not winning a trophy. Maybe Pep can celebrate it on a personal level but as a fan that is nothing to be happy about. He isnt a failure and I dont think that was what RG meant. A failure would be someone winning nothing in the 3 years and that is clearly not true

It is not even about the squad, it is about the tactics he chose to use which answers your question Alex, if he doesnt progress with his team using the approach that he came up with then there is nothing to praise. For example would you praise his time at Barca if he made you play tiki taka and you won nothing in the years he was there?? At the end of the day it is only about winning and if you play nice football while at it then that is just a bonus. If you dont win anything then the football you came up with will quickly be forgotten

That is where we differ. I dont watch the game for the pleasure of winning. Nor do I support the team because we win. I support the team because we play the Cruyff way. Winning is secondary. As long as we play the Cruyff way and the players give their all, I am happy and satisfied. Cant ask for anything more. We played the best football that I have ever had the pleasure of watching under Pep. Gave me immeasurable joy. Winning was just the cherry on top. Even if we won nothing during those years, I would still call those years a success.
The masterclass against Arsenal at the Emirates still remains the nadir of footballing excellence. It is not humanely possible to play better. And yet, if we go by results, that match was a failure as we drew. I dont classify that game as a failure. I classify that game as a resounding success as Pep took us to unmatched highs that night.

That game was Xavi at his absolute peak with a young and mobile Messi + prime Alves against Cesc, Diaby, Alex Song, Clichy, Vermaelen etc. Men against boys.

The fact that Pep still managed to throw away a 2 goal lead is another proof of his 1-dimensionalness. Players logically can't press after 70 minutes the same way they can do in the first 45. So playing the same high line no matter what conditions is not very clever at all. A better team can play possession football but also utilize counterattacks when needed. Luis Enrique's Barca is superior tactically. We rekt Madrid with beautiful possession football and we rekt Bayern with great counterattacks. And if Enrique had a younger Alves, Abidal instead of Alba, a more hungry and mobile Messi like in his younger days, prime Xavi and squad depth like Yaya Touré and Keita, we'd be literally unstoppable under Enrique. We wouldn't go unbeaten 39 games but 99 games.

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