Next season's midfield

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by chad4401 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:56 am

So much rubbish in this thread,  pogba is overrated af he is no way better than kroos, the kroos hate on this forum is a prime example of rm fans who don't know anything about footy and only want who is hot at the moment, while rambling about how midfielder  should play yet can watch isco play like crap most games and praise him for the sake of it, I know for a fact if pogba comes is he gonna get the isco treatment,  does nothing to change the shape of the game but all the fans gonna worry about is highlight vid on youtube.

I remember before kroos joined almost all the posters on here wanted him, now everybody wants kante over him cause one good season lmao typical, I have no problem with the cl winning midfield that all the experts wrote off half way through the season.

Lol at bill talking about who runs the club sit down, you don't know more than anybody of this forum, all you is push your spanish adenga and leech off posts.


Last edited by chad4401 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Turok_TTZ on Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:03 am

If everyone actually plays as tactics required, there would be no balance issues. Isco, James, even Kova can displace whoever is on our current midfield. If you can deliver the performance, then the perception of what needs fixing needs fixing itself.

Only problem with our current reserve mids are that the reason James, Isco, and Kova are on the bench vs the starting lineup was that they didnt meet the performance required and there are better players ahead of them. Isco of the 3 has least to be worried about, just needs to keep his play simple and more effort tracking back.
Kovacic needs to show more product but tbf wasnt given much chances and James well, his attitude is his number one problem and one I do not see fixing itself. a lost cause.

What weaknesses in midfield that a cl winning side have? I would agree the midfield lacks mids able to run vertically to open space but with the way we play, that doesn't really matter. Yes we lack diversity in midfield but the kind of diversity y'all want is very difficult to get. you're basically asking to get rid of 3 midfielders to get this perceived midfield diversity. not just kroos. modric may even have to go as well, he isnt safe from what you're asking. though most likely in realistic terms if sacrificing kroos... Kroos, james, Isco gone. Kova is the only one of the 3 benched who actually pushes forward and provide dem vertical runs y'all want and creative enough to be pogba's sub. modric stays (risky however due to age) but we need to sign another midfielder for his cover and we still have the main problem that is Casemiro not having a backup. and that above all else should have been our main priority if not for Flo and Zidane apparently.

You guys don't even think about this, do y'all? saying this and actually making sure it works are two different things. and that is just but one scenario. The other which kova isnt trusted and we are considering getting rid of him by loan or transfer, then you need 4 midfielders. how long can isco accept being on the bench? playing with fire this is.

I don't really care how this goes down as I have max trust in Zidane. I'm sure he will figure it out. but I would be very surprised if we don't sign a backup dm. pogba right now is a luxury. sure we can sign him, at the very least, it will fun to see how Zidane handles the can of worms that comes with making certain tactical decisions regarding transfers.

Why do I say this? I will continue to have max faith in Zidane even if he flops this upcoming season. I am just explaining all this now if by some bs chance Zidane loses the plot next season and you incompetents don't get why such happened so I don't have to explain it later. If y'all turned on Carlo Ancelotti so easily, I wonder how quick ye would turn on Zidane when things get rough...
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by vanDEEZ on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:01 pm

So most of the discussion has been around Pogba/Kroos.

How about Casemiro? I think he has earned his position, I believe he has been great for a player than has not been a consistent starter. Still just 24, he has plenty of room to improve. Buying another DM/ DCM may falter that improvement.

Thoughts?
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:07 pm

I think he is filling a gap where we had no one like him. One of the things to address this summer is actually depth in that position because he is the only one we can rely on for that role without hurting the team balance in the process.

I wouldnt say he has earned his position with no natural competition, because others have it tougher. I would appreciate us signing another DM, first for depth, then maybe for competition.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by vanDEEZ on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:18 pm

The thing is, I don't believe we will play a 4-3-3 all season. If it is a technical 4-3-3 it will fluctuate between a defensive 4-3-3 (with Casemiro) and an attacking 4-3-3 (with Isco). In other words I believe we will switch between a 4-3-3 (with DM) and a 4-2-3-1 (with an AM).

If we are to completely change to a more traditional 4-3-3 with a true DM then we should buy a backup, but that would mean we should sell both James AND Isco.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:27 pm

We have been through the motions of a midfield with Kroos playing as anchor, and it's consistently proven to be weak and vulnerable to transition football. If you were to tell me that at 100% fitness we could do it? then i would agree but 100% fitness doesnt exist in football.

I would rather we keep things as they are now, an actual positionally strong strong anchor who has actual defending qualities, i.e. good int he air, strong tackling, etc...

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by vanDEEZ on Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:51 pm

I'm hypothesizing, but if we have a midfield of Modric, Casemiro, Pogba, Isco, Kovacic- that will be enough to cover 3 midfield positions.

Some games will require more attacking (Most La Liga matches and some early group matches CL):

Isco/Pogba/Modric, Isco/Modric/Casemiro, Isco/Kova/Modric.

Some games will require more defense (Some La Liga games, and most of knockout CDR or CL):

Pogba/Modric/Casemiro, Pogba/Kova/Casemiro, Kova/Modric/Casemiro

5 players IMO gives us enough options and flexibility without having too many players fighting for time.

And if anyone is uncomfortable with the Pogba addition just swap that for Kroos, that is just how I am envisioning our midfield next season
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by futbol_bill on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Deez I think they are planning on Kroos staying. They are close to a deal of Kovacic, either loan or sale (with a possible buyback) to either Roma or Juve.

James seems likely he will be sold if they get a suitable offer. That leaves Kroos as the backup to Modric and Isco as backup to Pogba. Supposedly they also plan on another DM, however of the two mentioned targets (Kramer and Kante) one is already signed and the other is being pursued by both City and Chelsea.

My fear is they bench Casemiro for Kroos.
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Nivash on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:45 pm

He's earned the position based on having performed well. Well enough to bring stability to a team generally accepted as unbalanced.

While he wasn't the sole reason for the turnaround, he played a big part in it, and the drive to the CL win. As far as I'm concerned, he's won the position. Filling a gap undermines the contribution he's made.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Valkyrja on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:56 pm

This is galacticos all over again. Benching a proven world class player for an overhyped marketing tool. At least if it were for a superior one Laughing

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by shadexticos on Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:37 am

Enough has been said here, so much repetition of points.
I think the discussion should continue once we have an addition or subtraction so we can reduce the number of hypothesis.
*yawns*

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:21 am

Playing Kroos deep could work as long as you play a 352 with 3 CBs like Juve did which protected Pirlo playing deep.  But in a 433, no way.  It won't be as bad as having James or Isco on the left as Pogba is far better defensively...  but it still would be poor.

Besides, Casemiro has earned his chance.

It would be kind of cool to play a diamond 442 we sell Ronaldo...  we have the perfect squad for it.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by futbol_bill on Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:28 pm

There was a report out yesterday that Perez doesn't want to pay the price for what Juve is asking. This could just be a negotiation ploy, but we have to look at what Zidane said initially.

He wanted to fill the open spots to allow relief / alternatives at LB, DM and CF and then he had his list of dream players that would improve the lineup. But that those dreams, would only be pursued if they felt they could negotiate with the club (Juve or Bayern).

So it is a real possibility that they may give up on this dream, ..... For now.

On the other hand, we haven't seen any action yet on the list of backup players for CF, LB and DM, only that it could be Morata and Coentrao for two of the spots. We heard That Arbeloa is gone, nothing about James (and so far no offers for him despite him basically saying he's available and playing well in Copa America) plus the reported loans for Nacho, Kova and Jese.

The way I look at it, they can carry on with basically same lineup and be competitive in all competitions (with a better coach than they started last year) and have sufficient talent out on loans to be able to compete the year after during a transfer ban.

Or they pay the price for Pogba to ensure we are the team to beat in all competitions for the next TWO seasons.
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by FennecFox7 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:16 pm

I'd be all down to sell CR at this point, but the team proved they can't do anything noteworthy attacking wise in the final third without him.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Valkyrja on Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:29 pm

Let's say we sell CR this summer but there have any replacement remotely close to him tbh and I don't want to see the day when we'll rely on Benzema to score goals Laughing

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by The Madrid One on Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:47 pm

Re midfield, Jose Felix Diaz (Marca) says that Juve promised Pogba in 2014 that they would negotiate with whatever club once Pogba eventually decides to leave, aka supposedly now. I would assume if we don't get him then we very well may get Kante.

Here's an interesting article from a year ago that tries to round up Pogba.

http://www.ecosdelbalon.com/2015/06/analisis-paul-pogba-estrella-juventus-final-champions/

Some interesting quotes?

- "With a (talented) figure like Pogba, there are always specific and particular qualities that can be commented and focused on.
     
     -His vertical jump is noteworthy, an aptitude that gives Juve important options after a goal kick or in a set-piece.

     - When it comes to his relation with the ball, we are looking at a brilliant mid-range shooter, capable of potent missiles without charging his legs. He's virtuous with volleys, and a relentless danger in and near the opponent's box. He also has a change of play (flank) pass that is firm yet smooth at the same time."

- "The evolution of the frenchman will be marked (defined) by that footballing entity which he forms a part of in the upcoming years."

- "The great defect of Pogba as an "interior" midfielder (side midfielder in a 433 for example) is the low quality of his movements without the ball. Pogba doesn't really shuffle positionally as a midfielder alot or all that well at the moment.

Receiving the ball in between lines is not his forte, at least not where a midfielder is supposed to receive (move). This is where that feeling of him not being consistent or the feeling of him disappearing is born out of.

Summary: Pogba still doesn't know how to move like an elite. This is why he doesn't quite dominate yet."

- "Pogba's current game, decisive in many occasions, is still not at the level of his peculiar talent."

As hinted in the quotes though, Allegri is responsible in part for how Pogba plays.

- "Pogba at the moment is not the type of player who will collaborate excessively in "creative" tasks and nor is he a player who lives (it's not in his programming yet) thinking about how to help the centre-backs or creative midfielders create/organize play (ala Modric for example (more on this later) ). But Allegri knows this and he hasn't really asked him for it, Pogba's role (as crafted by Allegri) in the team is that which he plays."

- "But it's one thing to not be able to do things and another to not be asked for them". When Pogba is on the ball, he can be quite exotic. On top of all things, Pogba is a player with a very very fine technical level. His short passes are always clean, and his oriented control is amongst the best in europe despite his towering height. He has a very precise first touch and he can be very creative when it comes to passing the ball forward. In summary, his talent floods through his pores."

There's alot more in there, too much to keep quoting but here are the final thoughts, with ideas as well from another of Ecos Del Balon's articles on Pogba.

http://www.ecosdelbalon.com/2015/01/analisis-tactico-como-juega-paul-pogba-extremo-interior-lateral-juventus/

"Even though his current offensive role dynamics on the pitch don't fully make use of his full potential...let's not forget the early Modric of Tottenham. He started playing there as an "extremo," an attacking minded midfielder with attacking centered mentalities. Paul is still young and he has all the time in the world to mature and learn how to channel his powers, as that one Croatian magician did."

Is Pogba ready to cross the bridge?


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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by futbol_bill on Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:26 am

Another article today said we are going after Kante, as the Dm we need and still we will continue the Pobba pursuit!!!
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by vanDEEZ on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:36 am

I have a feeling the Pogba deal does go through this summer.

Perez has always flirted with it, and with the pending transfer ban its now or never.

Anyone think a midfield of Pogba-Kroos-Modric would work?
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:38 am

If you are going to post out transfer news without any source, how about you try to be accurate because the story is not "we are going after Kante" but instead, Kante has been offered to madrid and they are reviewing his signing, specially as he is not incompatible with Pogba

!! for dramatic effect

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:38 am

@vanDEEZ wrote:I have a feeling the Pogba deal does go through this summer.

Perez has always flirted with it, and with the pending transfer ban its now or never.

Anyone think a midfield of Pogba-Kroos-Modric would work?
No i dont think that midfield is good

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by Sushi Master on Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:15 am

This just smells of that whole "sell Di Maria, get James" fiasco. That got you guys back a season. Don't try to fix what ain't broken. A Casemiro-Kroos-Modric midfield is very balanced and can still on a good day dominate any midfield. Who exactly is underperforming that needs replacement?

Casemiro's 24, Kroos is 26, Modric will be 31 by mid season... These players are all in their prime and even have space to improve, apart from Modric. Modric still has easily a few seasons ahead of him. You have quality players in your bench which do not get enough game time as it is (Isco on your bench, FFS). Sure, sell James and maybe loan Kovacic or something.

What the hell do you need a 100 mil Pogba for? Yeah, he's an extremely good player. But he's still raw. You're not gonna just pump him into your XI. If you're gonna be patient and hone him into the type of player you want, alright. But that won't be right away. So if Perez can spend a 100m and not order to play him just cuz, and kill the footballing chemistry you have, it's really not worth the price.

Money's not really the issue here, and frack is it nice to show off a new, shiny signing, but from a neutral perspective, you guys really don't need Pogba as of now.
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:15 am

Sushi... we have no vertical play other than Bale. Also, Marcelo/Ronaldo's side have struggled defensively since Di Maria left because they don't have a B2B cover there.

Pogba... or any other elite B2B player on the left... makes a massive amount of sense. No disrespect to Kroos or anyone else. We have a balance problem. We won by being pragmatic and a bit lucky... nobody is going to say we played beautiful football and dominated to win the CL last season. Zidane is not stupid. He's looking to fix our team balance.

Other than Pogba, I expect us to sign a backup leftback that can compete with Marcelo and either bring back Morata or sign another CF to compete with Benzema.

We were very deep at some positions, very thin at others and completely lacking at others last season. There is definite room for improvement.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by vanDEEZ on Mon Jun 20, 2016 1:05 pm

To me it is almost the opposite of the Di Maria out/James in deals.

Di Maria was a type of player we didn't have in stock and James was a type of player we have plenty.

We currently don't have any players like Pogba, but have quite a few like Kroos.

Originally when Kroos was signed I think the plan was to have him play deeper. IMO that has not worked out, he works best occupying the same space as Modric.
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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:01 pm

Kroos plays like Modric but on the left.  If we played a 352 like Juve and we had 3 CBs behind him, he could play the deep role like Pirlo did at Juve despite the crap defense...  but we don't play like that.  

It also wouldn't be that big of a deal if Ronaldo tracked back consistently and Marcelo wasn't so piss poor on defense.  We just can't afford a defensively challenged and generally nonathletic player on that side even if he's a good football player.  Someone has to compensate.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by sportsczy on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:05 pm

@Deez...  we are apparently looking to sign both Pogba and Kante.  Kante has a 32 mil release clause and his agent approached us... and we listened apparently.  We will overpay for Pogba.  But Kante would be at a discount.  If you get both for 130-150 mil, that's not a bad deal in today's market given their talent and their ages (23 and 25).  They have high resell value which drives the price up.  This is an aspect that people don't really understand.  If they were 27 and pushing 30 in 2-3 years, they had little to no resell value, which would dramatically impact their present value.

When you model the value of a player, terminal value is important, which is the value of a player at the end of your model period.

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Re: Next season's midfield

Post by futbol_bill on Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:27 pm

If they do sign both, they would almost for sure have to sell Kroos?

If we listen to all the talk / rumours, james will be sold, Kova lent out, leaving Isco and Casemiro on the bench. The only way they could keep Kroos would be on bench behind Modric?? I doubt whether he would accept that? They would have to have another CM on squad as a reserve. The only cantera I can think of for that is Medran? But he said yesterday, that he knows he will be going out on loan again?
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