A swinger to hold the BBC

I have long thought that we need "better" help forward with BBC. Why? There are multiple reasons:
-433 is a wing heavy formation that requires quality outwide, and the more fast wingers we have the better.
-BBC is often injured and rarely play together meaning that those are positions that need quality cover
-We have long seasons where we compete for almost everything so again, quality subs are needed
-the drop off in quality between Ronaldo and Bale, and then the two other actual wingers we have. Jese is simply not up to standard, and while Vasquez was much better overall this season, i think we can still find a better player out there, maybe not as good as our starters but that can massively impact big games, whether in europe or in la liga. I expect Jese to move on, so that woud leave Vasquez, and someone that needs to be better.
-We are facing a ban that could stop us from signing anyone in the next two transfer windows
-all that list of other kids like Asensio, Odegaard, etc... are not even close to ready, so they should all be loaned as far as im concerned.

Those being my arguments, there is a list of other players that could do that job:
- Ben Arfa: The new version of Ben Arfa is pretty damn good. excellent 1v1, one of the best dribblers in europe. Essentially a one man attack on his day. would be super cheap at the moment as well
-Payet: Flavour of the month, great set piece taker, not really a winger, but had to throw him in there. would cost a lot though.
-Perisic: Personally i think he is the best winger i have seen in the euros so far, i did not think he was that good. But he looks fast, defends, plays left and right. Dont think he would cost a lot
-Draxler: was very good in the CL, still a bit young, but would be expensive.
-Ribery? we tried to sign him once
-Hulk
-Gaitan: Atletico already snatched him, they have the right ideas
-Brahimi: interesting winger, very vry good in 1v1, not the some efficient player but could contribute.

I'm okay with Jese and Lucas. Ronaldo plays 90% of the games and doesn't need a specific backup. Jese and Lucas are reliable

I would give asensio a chance assuming jese goes out

Ronaldo will rest more from the coming season

Would love to have nolito though...

For all the good things being said about him, I'm a bit reluctant about Ben Arfa. Feels reminiscent of Cassano in the sense that his environment is a big determinant of how he performs, and Madrid is hardly the environment for someone dependent on such.

If this quote is anything to go by:

"There are people here who trust me, who do not judge me as some people want to judge me through the press," - http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/30689370

Madrid is definitely not the place for him

The problem is convincing these people to come sit here on the bench. Now lot of teams have money, why sit on bench when they can start for those clubs and earn similar money? ..

For the same reasons that a player like Arda Turan went to Barca in the first place, or that very good players have joined big clubs knowing that even though they woulnt start they would have important roles off the bench and would start quite a number of games.

I just dont find it normal to go from two of the 5 best wingers in europe, to kids who are still wet behind the ears. It's the kind of quality drop that can ruin your year late if you are playing an important game and someone is missing. Quality on the wings can't be understated

rather have guys like lucas and jese who i know that will always give 100% no matter what than 30 y.o. footballers who have no link to the club and also a history of attitude problems.

Arda Turan is a bad example tbh. the guy is out of his range in that Barca team and many fans want him sold this summer to make space for their homegrown players. Lucas and Jese played CL semifinals/finals and did good.

Arda is just an example of a mature player that decided to join one of the biggest club in europe to garnish is remaining years. Whether he is liked by the fans or succeeding for them or not after is irrelevant to my argument.

what is this fantasy that only cantera players can play hard for the club? where is this coming from. At the end of the day i want good players around, and i don think those two are up to standard.

The width comes from the fullbacks or form the CMs going on wide runs... not both obviously.

Wingers have nothing to do with it. The "typical" 433 setup has one of the forwards as a playmaker, one as a CF and one as a SS. If one of them was a winger, it's more of a 442. In any case, 2 are supposed to attack the box while 1 is supposed to help create on each play.

The cantera desire is just bloated bullshit, excuse my french. Carvajal is a good player that's why he is succeeding, Casemiro is a good player, that's why he is succeedong and he is not cantera lol. Morata who is a supposed cantera is also a good player and has never even said that he wants to come back to madrid lmao.

It's fan fiction imo, you will succeed if you are good. People dont get better all of a sudden because they have been at the club most of their lives.

@Sports, wingers have nothing to do with width up front? good lord. There is no such thing as a "typical" 433, it's your own conception you are describing, so please dont try to pass it up as an universal truth. Different managers have different conception and approach to formation, and do with the players they have available.

your judgement is simiilar now as it was with Danilo's transfer last year nick, and look how it turned out. iirc you were 1 of the few who expected that scrub to challenge dani

@Valk, I expected Danilo to be a lot better, that's true. But i never look at it from a perspective where one is a cantera and the other is a foreigner. I just look at what each player brings in strength and weaknesses.

@Halamadrid, Morata ran and work hard for juventus. Does that mean he was a juventus youth product? What about Guti? the laziest midfielder i have ever seen? was he not our cantera?

which leverkusen player? Kramer? loool

If we had cantera players who had genius level talent and abilities i would be pushing for them as well. But to me you guys are pushing for average players who were in 3rd division last season and were pathetic in their attempt to go up to 2nd division, to come in the team to play valuable minutes. To that i say no, they need to go on loan to prove themselves like Carvajal, like Casemiro, like Morata even, and then we can talk about them.

But i put up a list of quality wingers up there and there is 0 cantera who is even close to one of those guys.

We need better standard from our bench, not just kids from the youth team because we need to develop some misplaced promotion system.

futbol_bill wrote:I don't get Val, Hala, DoC. They all were very critical all last season, and yet it seems they are against any changes to this previously acknowleded flawed squad other than promoting under developed canteras.

Their arguments seems to be this squad won the CL and came close on liga, so it is good enough and doesn't need changes.

I've already said that we must upgrade on casemiro and benzema. the former is good but we can do better, and you all know my opinion on karim. but imo there is no need to improve on lucas and jese. considering that they will most likely backup bale when he's unavailable since cristiano plays 90% of the games.

why should we buy an unreliable player like ben arfa or a scrub like perisic who's spending his prime in obscurity ? can't believe that perisic is better than lucas or jese.

This is stupid nick. No, there is a difference between a player like Lucas who doesn't have it all going for him but busts his ass, compared to James, who clearly doesn't give a shit about working hard (until recently). Heart is the reason we won what we did last season, not "talent" like you want to put it. Not everything is based upon a fifa rating.

All the canteros you mentioned made it with hard work. Lucas was very good last season and we need someone to replace him? Lol. Don't try to rewrite the da vinci code, fact is Lucas is more then good enough to challenge for a starting spot, some of us were even saying he should get some starts over bale.

Lucas challenging for starting spot? Loooool ok

Please dont make it sound like i said i dont value hard work, i never said that, if i did pls quote me.

I argument in this thread is that we would benefit from having another wide player off the bench, one in between Vasquez and Bale/CR. Its not a crazy proposition specially that Jese is not what he uaed to be.  I did not say Vasquez needa to be replaced i said there are better players out there we can sign

I listed fuys i think are better than vasquez and jese. Its ok to disagree with my choices, but if you disagree that there are better players than vasquez but not as good as Bale for ex, you are essentially saying that Vasquez is some kind of next level prodigy.

Guys....  wingers are rare enough these days and they absolutely do not fit in a 433.  In a 442 and a 4231, sure.  But a 433?

It's not a 433 with Vasquez.  It's a 442.  Bale is a bit unique because he is great both wide and in the middle.  So he can switch up between being a winger and a striker and even a AM (unfortunately).  We do get some winger attributes out of the 433 with Bale just because of that.  But how many players that have Bale's profile exist?  I can't think of another.  Ribery and Robben are the clear ones as they evolved into far more than just wingers.  But they're old and past it now.  Who else fits the bill?

I don't have any problem playing a 442 btw with a winger instead of 3 strikers.  But let's make sure we know what we're talking about  We're not going to break up BBC so it's not even a realistic discussion though.

As far as width goes...  that's really up to the fullbacks and the midfielders supporting those fullbacks.  Modric/Carvajal/Bale are fantastic for width on their side.  Kroos/Marcelo/Ronaldo are horrible now that Ronaldo rarely goes wide.  So the upgrade would be either to Marcelo or Kroos or both... if you're looking to improve width. This is assuming Ronaldo is kept. If Ronaldo was sold... Reus would really fit the bill. He's one I just remembered. He is a guy who started wide and evolved into more of a striker later. He would be perfect. But he can't stay healthy.

i get both arguments. i'm opposed to a lucas upgrade for a couple of reasons; one, the guy had a reasonable showing late on when he was called upon, had a reasonably good season, better than our other back ups (i don't consider casemiro and carvajal back ups) he took our first pk, in a tight pressure situation and was calm...he's earned another shot.

two, cristiano's always fit, won't miss too many games, so we've got lucas as bale's back up, i trust bale will get one of his injuries again next season, i think lucas can manage...jese's been dissapointing

three, when a coach hints that his front 3 will always play if they're fit (i don't think zidane has come out to say this, but that's the perception we get), then its difficult to attract those other names that mr nick has mentioned. to be honest, i don't want players who are happy with the bench. i want players who want to fight for a place and compete with those starting or even force them out.....so no, i don't want an arda turan type

here's where i agree with mr nick, the perception that only cantera players are hardworking is without basis. there have been many who have passed through real madrid, and only few are worthy of the 'hardworking' tag. two, there must be a balance between hardwork and talent. three, guys like carvajal are doing well here because they are good and put in effort, not necessarily because they are cantera players. after all, carvajal and lucas did have loan stints which may have helped their development process

i don't want some scrub who can't cut it in the lower divisions start playing for us simply cos they grew up in madrid. we have had enough of those; pavon, mejia, minambres, jotha, miguel torres (who was a hard worker, but provided extremely little in terms of talent). if a cantera is really good and performing, promote. if he's okay to alright, loan him out, and asses his development....we are trying to win titles here not raise kids

but as far as the discussion of today, i think lucas has earned a shot at another season as the main back-up winger

We don't need world class players on the bench
Lucas, Asensio, maybe a ben arfa and any other player who does not believe he will win balon d'or in 2 - 3 years time or ever.
We have an untouchable, completely untouchable front 3. No need for world class players on the bench.