- | Transfer Talk | Rumors | News | -

Andrew wrote:From

Vidal
Pogba - Pirlo - Marchisio

to

Pjanic
Rincon - Marchisio - Khedira

FAPFEST

Spoiler:

From:

Vucinic-Matri

to

Higuain-Dybala



Anyways, past teams are past teams. It doesn't really matter. For all we know Rincon will fit the system and play his role well, he might excel in this environment and if he doesn't, he'll be reduced to a rotational player and provide relief for our starters as we try to contend on as many fronts as possible this season.

I never believed January is the time to make big moves personally, but I like the Rincon signing. I'm certainly not against trying to bolster our midfield because that has clearly been the biggest cause for concern this season.

I'm really hopeful that Witsel joins, I want to see him at Juventus. I think he brings a nice dimension. He has experience and is a talented player, at 6M it's a no brainer and consider Zenit will lose him for free in June, they really ought to take the money at this point.

Let's say, the BONE of our midfield is Marchisio and Pjanic. These are the pillars of our midfield, the ones who will create scoring chances for our attackers and unlock situations. They support the offensive runs of Sandro and Cuadrado as well.

The FLESH around the bone however, is what we were lacking in terms of quality. What we need here is exactly what Vidal brings: energy, agressiveness, lucid positioning and at least decent football skills.

Witsel is an improvement over Lemina
Rincon is an improvement over Sturaro
Khedira is legit
Asamoah is not even a CM

As far as i know our main formation is still the 3-5-2 when everyone is fit. We were bullied this season because Pjanic-Lemina-Khedira is a way too slow and passive combination. Sturaro and Lemina will be out of the top 5 in the pecking order and will only play against provincial clubs or Coppa Italia. So i guess we can call it a problem solved.

The flesh around the bone is better now than it was during the autumn, and even better than 2015-2016 season. Prior to that, our midfield was world-class, but like Luca said, we did not have threats such as Higuain and Dybala in attack.

I honestly don't get why people keep saying that because we now have better strikers we should stfu and overlook the fact that we've went from having one of the best, if not the best midfields in the world to Sturaro being a starter. Yeah im greatful for the transfers we've had but still the downgrade in that department is sad. If you want to sacrifice some quality from one department of your team to strenghthen another, then do it but don't turn your biggest strengh into your biggest weakness ffs. What's the point of having world class strikers when they struggle to create space and chances because the midfield is disfunctional.

Also, I'm comparing the current starting 11 to the best one we had in the last 5 seasons which was that of 2014-2015 when we reached the C.L final. I'm not talking abou Matris and Boriellos. That starting 11 was better than the current one. Yeah Higuain is better than Morata and Dybala is amazing but you can't say that Morata and Tevez didn't get the job done. On the contrary, they both were amazing, especially Tevez. The only true upgrade is Alex Sandro and the depth we have on the bench.

We improved everywhere exception made of the midfield. Throw Vidal in the squad and i would rate this year's team over the one we had in the 2015 final.

nobody overlooks the midfield situation in this forum

obviously players Dybala, Higuain, Cuadrado, Sandro are keeping the team afloat, with a slight regression because the midfield is the crucial part of the strategy.

we might wait for a decade before having such a quality midfield again
3 out of 4 players are gone and there is nothing we can do about it. nowadays it seems the only options we have to compensate are Witsel and below... i mean, at least, the rest of the squad is pure class

Pirlo retired and was one of the greatest regista's in history. How exactly do you expect to replace him?  Pogba and Vidal wanted to leave. Both are world class. Again how do you replace them?  

We upgraded our attack with Higuain and Dybala. You can't say Morata and Tevez are better. Higuain scored 36 goals last year and broke the Serie A record. How can you compare Morata to him when Morata is not even a pure #9?  Also Dybala is wanted by every big club. We could easily sell him for $100M plus. He is also an upgrade over Tevez. Sandro is a massive upgrade over Evra or any left back we've had in recent memory. Pjanic if played in his correct role is a 12 goal 15 assist man. Sure we lost a lot of grinta in midfield so that is why Marotta is bringing in Rincon and Witsel. They will give us the missing grinta. We have enough players to score goals. Dybala, Higuain and Pjanic are good for 60+ goals combined in the right formation.

Also we have a rising star in Rugani at the back end. And we have Benatia that provides good cover. We just signed another young stud in Caldara as well. So our back end is set for a decade. In terms of the midfield we have a rising star in Bentancur coming in the summer and it looks like Gagliardini is coming a well. If you watch Atalanta you will know Gagliardini is a stud and a future regular on the national team. With these purchases our midfield is also set up for a decade. And don't forget Berardi. He will start playing again in January and you will see him become a star. He was scoring goals at will this year until he got injured. I can see him coming to Juve next year as well. Dybala Higuain Berardi up front will be a revelation for us and again we will be set for a decade.

GIGI said he is playing until he is 65 so we don't need to worry about his replacement for awhile. Really all we need now is a top right back. Pol Lirola is also our player and every indication is he will be a top player for us. So right back may be set for a decade as well. All we really need is a good right back who can step in for the aging Lichtsteiner until Lirola is ready for prime time. We can get one in the summer.

These Juventus teams go in ebs and flows. Sometimes we have better strikers, sometimes our midfield is stronger. Yes that 2014-2015 team was incredible. We almost won the treble with that team. But players retire and players get sold. That's life. We have moved on. Let's see where these new players take us. I have a feeling we may challenge for the treble again this year. That's my gut feeling.

Andrew wrote:I honestly don't get why people keep saying that because we now have better strikers we should stfu and overlook the fact that we've went from having one of the best, if not the best midfields in the world to Sturaro being a starter. Yeah im greatful for the transfers we've had but still the downgrade in that department is sad. If you want to sacrifice some quality from one department of your team to strenghthen another, then do it but don't turn your biggest strengh into your biggest weakness ffs. What's the point of having world class strikers when they struggle to create space and chances because the midfield is disfunctional.

Also, I'm comparing the current starting 11 to the best one we had in the last 5 seasons which was that of 2014-2015 when we reached the C.L final. I'm not talking abou Matris and Boriellos. That starting 11 was better than the current one. Yeah Higuain is better than Morata and Dybala is amazing but you can't say that Morata and Tevez didn't get the job done. On the contrary, they both were amazing, especially Tevez. The only true upgrade is Alex Sandro and the depth we have on the bench.

You've misconstrued my point brother.

My point is talking about our past midfield line ups is not relevant and I'm demonstrating that by showing our past forward line ups.

It's just like how some of us are still talking about how we started with 12 points from 12 games last year.

Or how Conte said we couldn't do anything in Europe and the team he took over finished seventh before he arrived.

All these things may be true but they really don't matter right now. Today, it doesn't matter that we had Pogba, Vidal and Pirlo, just like it doesn't matter that we had Matri and Vucinic and yet won the league undefeated.

The only thing that matters is at the end of the season how we have done. The names in the midfield aren't as shiny and hyped? I could care less. I think the only 11 that comes close to this is the CL final 11 but in reality, I think I almost prefer this one. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer for teams to gel and we have yet to see the best from this group this season.

The positives though shouldn't hide the negatives. Yes we signed world class players since 14-15, yes our bench is way better compared to back then but the plain truth is that we had one of the best midfields in the world and we ended up with a disfunctional midfield that is holding back the rest of the team from performing at its best. What's the point of having absolute monsters up front like Higuain when you can't deliver him the ball or Dybala having to drop so deep in the midfield because the midfielders can't carry the ball forward? And yes I know the stats of each player we signed mate, but please let's be honest, it's not as if were playing with Boriello and Matri back in 14-15. For example I'd love it if we still had Tevez in our team.

Also please stop with the "they wanted to leave" excuse. If we want to be considered as a top club then hell yes we HAVE to convince them to stay. Just like all other top clubs have been doing with their players for I don't know how many years now. Didn't PSG manage to keep Matuidi despite him wanting to leave? I'm sure the same thing will happen with Verratti too. How does Bayern manage to keep their players from leaving? We should be taking notes.


The truth is that we fraked up. If we didn't then we wouldn't be planning a complete midfield overhaul in the coming summer.

Anyway this topic isn't new, we've discussed this times and times before over the past 2 years. It's just that we've been doing a lot of mistakes in the recent transfer windows that I worry we've lost our clear ideas and plans. That's the cause of my outburst.

I replied without noticing your post mate. The above was a reply to gigi.

Andrew wrote:I replied without noticing your post mate. The above was a reply to gigi.

All good, I figured as much. Cheers bro

Andrew wrote:The positives though shouldn't hide the negatives. Yes we signed world class players since 14-15, yes our bench is way better compared to back then but the plain truth is that we had one of the best midfields in the world and we ended up with a disfunctional midfield that is holding back the rest of the team from performing at its best. What's the point of having absolute monsters up front like Higuain when you can't deliver him the ball or Dybala having to drop so deep in the midfield because the midfielders can't carry the ball forward? And yes I know the stats of each player we signed mate, but please let's be honest, it's not as if were playing with Boriello and Matri back in 14-15. For example I'd love it if we still had Tevez in our team.

Also please stop with the "they wanted to leave" excuse. If we want to be considered as a top club then hell yes we HAVE to convince them to stay. Just like all other top clubs have been doing with their players for I don't know how many years now. Didn't PSG manage to keep Matuidi despite him wanting to leave? I'm sure the same thing will happen with Verratti too. How does Bayern manage to keep their players from leaving? We should be taking notes.


The truth is that we fraked up. If we didn't then we wouldn't be planning a complete midfield overhaul in the coming summer.

Anyway this topic isn't new, we've discussed this times and times before over the past 2 years. It's just that we've been doing a lot of mistakes in the recent transfer windows that I worry we've lost our clear ideas and plans. That's the cause of my outburst.

You are forgetting the most important aspect of a sale and a transfer in regards to a foreigner, MONEY. Pogba is getting $13M net wages from ManU and Vidal $8M from Bayern. How did you expect Juventus to keep these players?  It didn't even matter if we could convince them to stay, they would have followed the money regardless. Also, you mention Matuidi. First off he is French and so stayed with his French team. Secondly his net wage is $12M. Again how did you expect Juve to match that?

The fact of the matter is that Serie A cannot compete with the other leagues when it comes to player salaries. The players will go where the money is, especially if they are foreigners. They do not have loyalty to Italy like in the past when they were getting paid the same as in other countries. Times have changed. The only players that seem to stay are the Italians. Bonucci is the best example. He could have easily went to ManCity and got paid ALOT more money but decided to stay in his home country.

This is the reason why Juve needs to stay Italian and sign homegrown players and that is what Marotta is doing. Rugani, Caldara, Gagliardini, Berardi. These players are a must as they will be more loyal to the club and not leave at the first big offer.

This is why we are in such grave danger of losing Dybala. If Real Madrid makes a $120M offer amd agrees to pay Dybala $12M net wages how do you expect us to convince him to stay?  Alex Sandro is another player who could see a big money offer come his way. He is one of the best left backs in the world. There is a rumour ManU will pay $60M for him. So he's also a target.

I wish these foreign players would stay at Juve forever. Unfortunately it is not like the old days. We simply cannot compete with the other big European clubs when it comes to wages. Those days are gone. Maybe one day it will change, but that day is not now. Maybe when the Milan clubs start spending all that Chinese money Serie A will become more profitable. But they still have to build their own stadiums. And our TV deal cannot match the ones from the other leagues, especially the EPL.

Totally agreed gigi. There is nothing that Juve can do when the money in Italy is not like it was in the old days. What they can do is invest in the best Italian players like what they are doing now.

So if we are unable to keep our top players then we should simply accept that until Serie A is healthy again we will be to Europe what Roma is to Serie A. Always around there but unable to truly match the top dogs.

If what you guys are saying is true then we shouldn't be comparing ourselves with Barca, Real or Bayern from a financial point of view.

Witsel going to China. Almost done. He's getting €18M net per year.

Well bullet dodged then. Hope we don't bring anybody else in now other than Rincón of course and go all in for a real quality CM in the summer.

Andrew wrote:So if we are unable to keep our top players then we should simply accept that until Serie A is healthy again we will be to Europe what Roma is to Serie A. Always around there but unable to truly match the top dogs.

If what you guys are saying is true then we shouldn't be comparing ourselves with Barca, Real or Bayern from a financial point of view.

No one does tbh. We can't even compare ourselves to EPL teams from a financial perspective even though we're growing each year financially.

But things are different on the sporting side. We are able to build a top squad comparable with some of the best teams in Europe despite the obvious hurdles so in that respect, there's definitely some basis for comparison. Nothing wrong in that.

S wrote:

Andrew wrote:So if we are unable to keep our top players then we should simply accept that until Serie A is healthy again we will be to Europe what Roma is to Serie A. Always around there but unable to truly match the top dogs.

If what you guys are saying is true then we shouldn't be comparing ourselves with Barca, Real or Bayern from a financial point of view.

No one does tbh. We can't even compare ourselves to EPL teams from a financial perspective even though we're growing each year financially.

But things are different on the sporting side. We are able to build a top squad comparable with some of the best teams in Europe despite the obvious hurdles so in that respect, there's definitely some basis for comparison. Nothing wrong in that.

I wouldn't worry because we will always be chasing silver wear and should always make the knock out stages of europe. Also if Inter and Milan start buying big which i predict because of the new owners it will raise the profile of the league and will effect the tv deals. We are growing in revenue each year don't forget we are at around 0 net spend in the transfer market after this year. next year if say we went out and spent 100 mil euros on the market it wouldn't be a risk. Only issue is wages but their going up every year and we are slowly starting to compete there. I wouldn't worry about China got a few years before they really start taking over calcio

^Agree with S and marottalad here. No one should be comparing us to Madrid in financial terms, probably only United can be compared, not even Bayern or Barca. These are different levels. To Bayern we can be compared to, to Barca maybe.

----------

Looks like Witsel might follow the money and go to China. If not him then do we bring anyone else? I don't see too many opportunities we can pounce on given that most are CL tied. We got Rincon, then lets get a real investment in midfield for the summer. Verratti Gagliardini

Maybe we bring in Gagliardini in January? We are already allowing Caldara to potentially stay until 2018. That could be an option.

If Witsel chooses Chinese money rather than coming to Juve, then he is no where fit to come to Juve. Unfortunately he is not as ambitious as we thought he would be... It is very embarassing that he said previously he was gonna join us either in January or June.... Who knows, maybe he will come in June if he doesn't like the Chinese league...?

If he wants to go get paid huge amounts in China then fair lay to him and good luck. We don't need players without sporting ambition here, if he joins then great if not then it wasn't meant to be.

Tbh I don't want N'Zonzi, he is expensive and cup tied. If its gonna be him I'd rather go for Gagliardini and/or wait for Bentancur in the summer. Other than Verratti I don't know who could be a big CM signing in the summer. It will probably have to be young talent like Bentancur, Gagliardini, Tolisso, etc.

Any ideas?

Pjanic/Bentancur

Rincon/Sturaro - Marchisio/Gagliardini - ?/Khedira



Of course I have no idea how good Bentancur is or whats his best position.

I was so wrong about Kante calling him the "french Sturaro" this summer when there were links. Been watching a lot of Chelsea (watching the game now) and he was the guy we needed.

Totally agreed with you rincon. I'd rather have Gagliardini over N'Zonzi. Not because he's a better player than N'Zonzi, on the contrary, N'Zonzi is having an amazing season but the lad simply doesn't fit the standards of my ideal midfielder. That's a personal preference though and nothing more.

Also, I know it's never going to happen especially now that we keep signing more midfielders and also having in mind that it won't suit Pjanic's game but do you think that a 3-4-3 could work for us ?

rincon wrote:
Any ideas?

Pjanic/Bentancur

Rincon/Sturaro - Marchisio/Gagliardini - ?/Khedira



Of course I have no idea how good Bentancur is or whats his best position.

Tolisso seems like an all around midfielder. Would love to have him. Also, would love to have someone in the mold of Nainggolan or Allan over Khedira. Don't know who that player can be though.

For example this would be amazing to have.

@Andrew on the 3-4-3

I think it could work well for us with the right players but it would mean the death of Khedira imo. I don't think he can play in a 2-man mid unless he is next to a work horse but then Pjanic and Marchisio would be much better choices.


In this setup I'd rather have

Rincon - Marchisio,
Marchisio - Pjanic,
Rincon - Pjanic

than anything to do with Khedira, Lemina and Sturaro. With only 2 midfielders they then have to do more and be more important, Khedira is great when fresh but burns out quick and the other two have a lot of gaps in their game.

rincon wrote:@Andrew on the 3-4-3

I think it could work well for us with the right players but it would mean the death of Khedira imo. I don't think he can play in a 2-man mid unless he is next to a work horse but then Pjanic and Marchisio would be much better choices.

Sandro/Pjaca - Higuain - Dybala

Evra/Sandro - Marchisio/Rincon - Pjanic/Khedira - Alves/Cuadrado

Agreed and that's the problem. One of Pjanic and Khedira have to be sacrificed and it simply can't happen. I was thinking that Khedira would be able to play in a double pivot since he played there for Germany but I agree with you, Pjanic offers way more.

I was just writing an edit on my post at the same time with my thought on that^.

I agree with you, Khedira does well in Germany's double pivot but there he basically has 4 other midfielders in front of him in a very dominant setup.