Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Warrior on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:12 pm

Agreed with most of what was said by all of y'all.

Until Marchisio comes back (mid october ?) we shall never use a line-up without Pjanic and/or Cuadrado again. No links were made from the recovery to the attack, this trio of midfielders was a very bad idea.

Alves was useless today. In second half he was still underperforming despite a couple of chances created. He blew many crosses way too wide. Not good enough from him but he deserves some time to adapt.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:23 pm

@gigi

Alves has basically always been a wingback at Barcelona, I don't believe the 3-5-2 is the problem for him. His problem were always back 4s with Brazil when he didn't have as much protection. Thats fixed in our system, the problem I see for him at Juve is that he is not a good fit.

He tries to play as an extra midfielder and always do a one-two. He rarely hugs the touchline when going forward, and when he does then its a cross without purpose. His passing is so much better than his crossing but that's not what we always need from him.

With Barzagli-Khedira-Dybala on the right side we already have great passing lanes. We are better with Litch's runs or with Cuadrado's dribbling. Not more of the same style short passing that all the others do.

These first games he has just been an "old Alex Sandro". Sandro also loves to sneak in as a midfielder, but he actually takes the initiative to dribble much more, I guess its just a youth thing for them. Also the fact that on the left we have Higuain, Chiellini and Asamoah (or Pjanic) so Sandro's passing game is really needed. Not the case for Alves.


Last edited by rincon on Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:06 am

i kinda expected the approach, i think alegri made good decisions from the options we have

ucl you have to show more respect to the opponent you cannot go too attacking minded because there can be serious consequences if you a pass is blocked

we have to find ways to win the games without sending lots of players forwards

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Luca on Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:04 am

We just don't make enough chances and then we habitually miss the ones we do make and should score (Khedira and Higuain most prominently tonight).

It's the same story every year no matter the players or manager. It's this damn formation in my opinion. The 3-5-2 can be great, especially when teams want to attack us but when teams want to sit back tonight, like Sevilla, we see the low points of our team. With that being said, if either Khedira or Higuain finish those chances, then the game opens up dramatically, but with each minute of the game that passes scoreless, the advantage to Sevilla continuously grows.

I think Allegri got it a bit wrong today. I think he was expecting a Sampaoli approach, full attack from Sevilla and prepared by using Asamoah and Evra in the starting 11. Sampaoli played this one excellently and Sevilla earned their clean sheet.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by DeviAngel on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:10 am

This game proved Licht should be our starting RB, Sandro should be our starting LB. Khedira is our key player. Dybala needs rest

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:11 am

@rincon

It's the 3-5-2. If we were playing a 4-3-3 with Alves as a RB and Cuadrado as a RW than his crosses wouldn't be a problem as he would just be doing his short passes to midfield while Cuadrado would take over towards goal.

This game proved once and for all that the 3-5-2 does not work in Europe. Sevilla parked the bus and we had no answer up front with only 2 forwards. Sure we could have buried a couple chances and won the game, but Sevilla is a Europa League team. What happens when we play Bayern? How will we score against Bayern when we can't score against Sevilla?

Allegri got it all wrong I'm sorry to say. The 3-5-2 must be scrappped in Europe for the 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2. We need 3 forwards in order to play against the best teams who all play with 3 forwards. Either that or we play Pjanic as a CAM. One or the other. I am sure moving forward once Cuadrado starts to play and once Marchisio is back we can scrap the 3-5-2 in Europe.

Put it this way. If we had taken out Barzagli and put in Cuadrado in the second half and switched to a 4-3-3 the game would have totally changed. Along with Sandro and Pjanic of course. If I see Asamoah and Evra starting together on the left one more time I will go to Torino myself and have a talk with Allegri face to face.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:35 am

We can also play a 4-4-2 with our wingers that can be switched to a 4-2-4 during the game if need be for more offence.

Anything BUT a 3-5-2 in Europe.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by S on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:02 am

Put Pjanić and Sandro from minute 1 and we wouldn't make this discussion about formation or personnel. That was the initial mistake. We dint even field our best lineup.

With Asamoah and Evra, we were essentially playing with 9 men on the pitch.

When you're playing with 3-5-2 , playing with 3 of the best defenders in Europe, the least you could do is field attacking wing-backs. We're too scared of conceding when in fact we have to be approaching the game in the opposite way especially if you want to make up the step up to the elite.

Formation is absolutely not a problem in my opinion. It's the mentality that should change especially when playing these so called 'lesser' teams with all due respect to Sevilla.  You could field a different formation and you could still see us struggle because we are scared to concede so we play  it safe.

Right now we play like a team that can handle the big teams but struggle against lesser sides.With the wealth of talent we have in our squad right now, that should absolutely change.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:42 am

I agree that Sandro and Pjanic from the first minute would have made a big difference. But it's been 5 years now and other than the magical run of 2015 we have nothing to show for our CL efforts.

The good teams can easily counter the 3-5-2 and it's been proven time and again. Even in International play Italy has problems scoring with a 3-5-2.

3 forwards will always outscore 2 forwards. It's just basic mathematics. The 3-5-2 was created because Conte saw BBC and thought it was a great idea to have them all on the pitch together. It was our strength. It worked perfectly that first year in Serie A as we went undefeated. However we didn't have to play in Europe that year. Once we made the step up to the CL we started to have problems. Conte never got past the quarter finals. And Allegri last year failed to win the group and we got screwed having to play Bayern.

Allegri can do what he wants in Serie A as it won't matter. But in Europe we need to get Pjaca and Cuadrado involved if we want a chance to succeed. As soon as Pjaca came in today he was making a difference. Should have had that penalty. Put him on the wing with Cuadrado on the other side and magic will happen.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juvealbanian on Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:16 am

We were more defensive than we should be against teams like Sevilla.With a back 3 made of world class defenders we should think about attack & counter attacks more.Forget about Evra and put Alex Sandro there, if he needs a rest I would like to see Pjaca there.I was impressed how with all the pressure of dying minutes and the little time he got he didn't make any mistakes.On the right wing we should play Cuadrado when we have a offensive approach and Lichtsteiner if we want more safety.
As for the midfield I think Pjanic should play just as Pogba was doing,he is very good at the final pass and we can't limit him to play deeper.Khedira has been good as well but I think he is the only midfielder we have atm that can perform the best before our defense.His lack of speed was seeb when he lost too much ground and failed to score.He should change position with Lemina.Lemina is faster and safe going forward.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:30 am

Its wasn't the formation last night, it was the personnel.

Lemina with only 46 had less passes than: Chiellini, Barzagli, Bonucci and Alves. As the central midfielder that is shameful, remember Pirlo and Marchisio having 70-90 passes some games...

Then add Asamoah on the left who is a runner and that's 2/3 midfielders who can't pass particularly well.

Throw in Alves with 12 crosses like he is playing for Moyes out there. Only 1 of those was a real threat which Higuain headed into the bar. As opposed to Evra who with only 3 crosses created 2 chances.

Put Pjanic, Marchisio and Cuadrado/Litch in there and the difference is immense. Marchisio is out so Lemina will have to do, but then we would still have won with the other 2.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Andrew on Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Sure thing is that Allegri always learns from his mistakes and last night was all on him.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by LeBéninois on Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:30 pm

For those who want to see a 4-3-3 , who are going the 3 FW ? Cuadrado - Higuain - Dybala?

What's up with Alves ? I thought Lichteiner was on his way out and now many of you are saying he should replace Dani ?

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Luca on Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:42 pm

@LeBéninois wrote:For those who want to see a 4-3-3 , who are going the 3 FW ? Cuadrado - Higuain - Dybala?

What's up with Alves ? I thought Lichteiner was on his way out and now many of you are saying he should replace Dani ?


Probably
Pjaca-Higuain-Dybala

Anyways, while I agree with you guys that the personnel was an issue, I believe with any formation that involves a back four and not a back three would've forced Allegri to play either an attacker or another midfielder, which in turn should add more going forward
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Tomwin Lannister on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:37 pm

We'll never have a global brand like the European elite if people tune in to see us playing like cowards in the CL whilst our supposed CL rivals are literally scoring more goals in 1 game than we manage in 5. Hell even in Serie A we stop playing after getting a 2-3 goal lead and it's a horrible practice to get in to. It's literally cancer in Europe. Only in Italy. Right now Italy is such a backwards footballing nation.

Our footballing mentality in Europe is as provincial as it gets. Making changes out of fear for the opposition, lining up with 3 CBs and offensively quite frankly shit midfielders for the most part, and Evra providing width, the 50 year old man who can't attack.

You'd never catch the likes of Barca, Madrid, Bayern or to also list tier 2 teams I.E PSG, City, Dortmund etc benching their most talented players to accommodate for hard workers and defensive players. Because those teams understand that they should be focusing on their own game and not shitting their pants worrying about the opposition particularly when the opposition is in no way, shape or form a World class them themselves.


Long story short until we play with confidence, and ditch the 'not losing > winning' mentality we often have, we're going to accomplish nothing in Europe, even if our team on paper has the personnel to do so.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:45 pm

to play attacking minded i believe we need more effectiveness in serie a

until we see ourselves extreme effective like winning the games 4-0 you cannot go attacking minded vs ucl opponents because you are still unsure if you may lose the game like 0-3

so you better show more respect like alegri did until we have more convincing performances on serie a

if we manage to score like 4-0 against smaller clubs because the effectiveness, than you decide to approach even clubs like sevila as a small club

you don't attack them 433, instead you attack them 334

sandro--- hig --- dyb ----cuadrado
---- pjanic ---march--- khed -----
----- chiell-- bonuci - barz -----

so you attack

but now we still need time to improve





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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Tomwin Lannister on Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:47 pm

I will agree to that to some extent, we're still content grinding out Serie A results. As soon as we look like the game is wrapped up we completely shut off. Which is a terrible habit. You spend years content with a 1-2 goal lead and then all of a sudden you're in the CL against a team that can turn the game on it's head in moments.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Warrior on Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:53 pm

Before this match against Sevilla i was not sure whether i prefer the 3-5-2 or a 4 def formation...  now i fixed my mind about this: 3-5-2 ALL THE WAY !!

3-5-2 is what the team is built for and we should stick to that, seriously. We may adapt during the matches to other formations depending on the situation, but we should always start with 3-5-2. Juventus 2016-2017 is a squad where most players can play at least 2 positions anyway, so in-game modifications are not very complicated.

- We have 4 world class CB and one in the making. Our defence + Buffon is the pillar of our team. 3 CB formation with quality RWB/LWB is impenetrable.

- Moggi's posts are often refering to players shifting positions, and i agree with him entirely on this point. 3-5-2 is more suitable for a team, like us, that has a lot of versatile players. If you have to get one goal and you play 4-4-2, you're kind of screwed because you'll either make a substitution or ask you fullbacks to attack more, leaving only 2 man at the back. With 3-5-2 you just modify the strategy and still have the BBC defending.

- At least one creative midfielder should be starting every match. (These guys are Pjanic, Marchisio and Cuadrado). Lemina, Asamoah and Sturaro are just runners, nothing but support players who must cover the ass of the creative ones. Khedira is between the two: he covers a lot of field, recovers some balls and participates to the attack but he's not someone you can rely on for offensive sparks. Yesterday was a disaster, all 3 of them were clueless and Dybala had to do the job by himself.

- For the Champions League, i don't trust Alves at all in a four man backline. Cuadrado either... i think both are wingers actually. That's why it's important to have 3 CB's, to make sure the right side is not leaking every time he's running back and forth. Barzagli is excelling in that matter. If we play 4-3-3 in CL then Barzagli should be the RB.


For all of these reasons (talented defense, versatility in our line up, lack of creativity yesterday that distorts our analysis) i think the 3-5-2 is still the key to our success. Starting with 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 should be reserved for easy games, just for the fantasy of spicing things up a little Thumbs up
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juve_gigi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:41 pm

Tom is da man...

3-5-2 should be scrapped completely. It condones cowardness. Either you man up and play with 3 forwards like all the other top teams or you stay as a CL pretender the rest of your life.

Juve doesn't belong in the same conversation as Barca, Bayern and Madrid until we officially scrap this pre-historic backwards thinking Italian mentality of defend, defend, defend.

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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by Warrior on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:47 pm

It's all about the mentality, not the formation.

BARZAGLI-BONUCCI-CHIELLINI
ALVES-LEMINA-PJANIC-SANDRO
CUADRADO
DYBALA-HIGUAIN

How screwed are Sevilla against such a line-up ?

As i said in an other thread, our opponent did what they had to do. We lost because our midfielders did not know what to do once they had the ball.

With 3 cbs of that caliber you have pretty much nothing to worry about... add to that decent full backs and one midfielder to help them (until Marchisio is back it seems like this guy is Lemina).

Leaves you with 4 players that should be minded on creating chances (and god knows we have quality in that matter) + the 2 full backs that will support them. THIS is showing some balls without touching the pillar of our team (our CB's). No need to change our game completely just because we did not win our first CL match. Yesterday we had only three offensive players, one of them being a right-back on misform. Of course the 3-5-2 is uneffective in that case !

If Juve play 4-3-3 in the Champions League we have less defensive power since we need to take off one world class CB. On the right side Alves is sloppy in his defensive game and Lichtsteiner is not even available... Only solution would be Barzagli, but then again, what's the point since he won't provide any attacking support.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:56 pm




here is a comparision

-------------- del piero - trez -----
zambrot - nedved - emers - vieira - camora
------------ cb ----- cb ---- cb ---------

------------- hig---- dybala--------
sandro - pjanic - march -- khed --- cuadrado
------------ cb ---- cb ---- cb -----------

the wings are good

we just need more creativity in the center mid instead of lemina + asamoah together






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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:08 am

i would not subst khedira because he gives that extra man who can go for headers, unless there is someone like witsel in midfield

but cuadrado + pjanic + khedira in the center may be good
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by rincon on Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:08 am

Agree in all with heftkzar and moggi
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juvealbanian on Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:58 pm

Yeah we must get rid of this ultra defensive approach, we have taken it so far that we even apply it against teams we are supposed to destroy with our superiority.

It's a weak mentality when you defend a 1-0 result, after all we ain't a second tier team,we are supposed to be on top 5 of European best.
Ok Conte didn't have the right tools to be more offensive, we didn't have Dybala,Higuain,Pjanic etc. we were kinda forces to take that approach.

But now it's totally different, you can't take a defensive or balanced position against teams like Sevilla.

We have enough firepower to kill them,attack is the best defense,we should go all out attack , score 2-3 goals then lower the tempo.
If we had Sandro,Pjanic and Cuadrado in from the first minute I'm sure that with the intensity we started the first minutes we could have scored at least 2 goals.Then Allegri can be coward again and put in defensive players.

Pjaca-Higuain-Dybala must be tested against weak teams in Serie A, with support from Cuadrado and Sandro from wings I'm sure it could be as devastating as other top teams,not forgetting Pjanic as well.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by juvealbanian on Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:59 pm

^ I bet there is not a Serie A team that can hold that firepower longer than 30-40 minutes.
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Re: Juventus Champions League campaign 2016-17

Post by lucianomoggi on Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:16 pm

chiellini wrote:Giorgio Chiellini has told fans that Juventus outscore sides such as Real Madrid and states his club instead prefer a steadier, more defensively solid approach.

The Serie A champions were criticised for their defensive attitude in the scoreless Champions League clash with Sevilla on Wednesday, with head coach Massimiliano Allegri opting to bench creative midfielder Miralem Pjanic.

However, Chiellini has made it clear that it is Juventus' DNA to be solid rather than a team that sets out to score five or six goals a game.

"With all due respect, but Juventus are not Real Madrid or the AC Milan of Ronaldinho's days," Chiellini told reporters. "They can win games 6-2 or 5-2. Juventus are not like that.

"We have to win 1-0 or 2-0. It's in the club's DNA. That does not mean we will not try to win 3-0, but we are a team that cannot concede a goal when we are ahead.

"We are not like Real and will never be like them. We have different characteristics.

"Atletico Madrid have not reached the top in Europe by winning games 5-0 or 6-0. You need balance."

Nevertheless, Juventus are the clear favourites to win a sixth successive Serie A title, while they are also among the outsiders to win the Champions League.

But Chiellini is adamant they are not getting carried away, adding: " here is a certain balance in the dressing room. We are perfectly aware of the difficulties in each game.

"Everything seems very simple from the outside and that is why Allegri is right to be on top of everything.

"You could lose some of your sharpness if people are saying you have already won Serie A and are a Champions League contender. "
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