In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by vanDEEZ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:45 pm

But all we do is cross and hope for the best..

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by sportsczy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:48 pm

We only win because the players like Zidane and play hard for him..

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by halamadrid2 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:52 pm

God forbid beating the record without playing the Pep way.....so undeserved tbh. Bit disrespecful to total complete ultra false tactician Pep if you ask me....
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by chad4401 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:10 pm

rofl why do casual fans think wanking to big names like mou, means something the guy football sucked ass, and all he could do is blame the players, so good what a great coach rofl.

Last season I thought this section would get over the whole complaining for the sake of it, just proves how clueless they are but my mistake.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Mr Nick09 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:20 pm

I have always had a very strong opinion about the way this team play, i dont think that's any surprise.

But i want to make it clear, first and foremost, i will take scrapping and winning over playing champagne football and being average anyday. Winning is what matters and if we have to crawl, scrap, bite our ways to win then that's what matters the most.

Now, if we have to argue about the aesthetic value of the football we play, then yes i would say that we dont play that well, or we play according to the form of the players we have around the pitch. Since Mourinho, our managers have been quite average at getting this squad to play any form of quality football.

Mou's high tempo counters had their time, Carlo's did his thing, Benitez was outright shit and Zidane is not doing anything outstanding himself with the team. The squad has unified and consolidated around him in a spectacular fashion, and that's enough in pro sports to win and to be successful.

Is Zidane playing the worse football we have seen recently? of course not. But he is not distinguishing himself from that point of view as well. As long as you are willing and receptive to discuss about quality of our game, then i think we are poor.

There is no plan nor specific organization around how we play the ball from the back, how we build offense, the movements in between the lines to open passing lanes, the runs from midfielders or forward behind the defense, little to no attempts to play through balls, to press collectively, and i can go on. We continue to win by the talent of our players more so than by the quality of how we play collectively. Literally you can copy and post one of my posts criticizing mou or carlo here and just replace their name with Zidane.

My opinion is simply that we should play better football, while winning of course, as both should go together. I am not a possession football theocrat, but i think everyone appreciates a team generating lots of movements on and off the ball while scoring goals. It doesnt matter what we have our defensive line in front of keylor as long as we generate quality plays when we are on possession. I have read and seen enough about positional football to know what i am talking about. We have all seen the likes of Italy playing fantastically in the euros while being defensive and organized, because some here would think i am think talking about tiki taka.

I have a vivid memory of Madrid achieving such a decade or so ago. I hope we can return to that in the next few years or so.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:27 pm

you said it yourself; mourinho, carlo, rafa haven't managed to get the team to play the way you want....add pellegrini too- his sides played well against minnows but lost or dropped points to every top side faced. all those managers are way more experienced than zidane. zidane hasn't even completed one full year as a coach.....and once again, his personnel is different from guardiola's in his first season at barcelona (cos i know people will go "well pep in his first year did.....").

i get what some of you are hoping for, and i don't think there's anything wrong in having a difference of perspective or opinions. i don't however get this sense of broken promise that zidane isn't living up to what he promised....he took a broken side, and he's a novice coach, he wasn't in a position to promise anything. cos he was a great offensive talent doesn't mean all our players will start playing like him all of a sudden

and, i see people referencing "oh he went to watch guardiola's team so he should play like that". just cos you watch something doesn't mean you'll immediately follow that way blindly, especially when you're both managing different teams, its not like you're inheriting that manager's team. i don't want to sound like zidane is beyond reproach, because he isn't....but a handful of games in and no losses yet? i'm not going to go into full praise mode, neither will i critique yet. let's at least drop points first
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by guest7 on Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:40 pm

You can play attacking football and win with this team, just sayin'. This team is that good.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:46 pm

the team wasn't playing defensively when we were getting knocked out by juve. we had the ball a lot, nobody remotely knew what to do with it at all. at one point even the back 4 pushed forward, but everyone lacked ideas.
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:00 am

and i think from a tactical standpoint, whilst vandeez, guest7, mrnick, demon and co are all calling for the same brand of football, the approach you all might want us to go en route to playing that brand is totally different.

mrnick has pointed out his issues- midfielders and strikers running behind the defense (i'm sorry you'll hardly get that from kroos and modric for reasons i have mentioned before. modric doesn't even do that with croatia, kroos hardly too), little to no attempt to play through balls (the CMs are too far back to do that, so the hope is on the front 3. its more like 3 CFs....and if we catch teams on the break u'll see some through passes ), press collectively (not a bad idea at all, don't know if we can do it week in and week out, guys get exhausted, coupled with the fact we have many injury prone players already)

i doubt everyone mirrors the same stance....and once again, if you've criticized multiple coaches for the same thing, at what point do you think it could be personnel related? considering carlo rafa and zidane have practically had the same side.
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:58 am

We dont necessarily need to have Kroos and Modric run behind the defense, i was giving one way of creating superiority in the last third. And to be honest, it's not a crazy scenario to imagine, we see Modric occupying those AM zones, same as Kroos enough during games, those are positions where they need to spend more times to create an advantage with the ball. And i refuse to believe that BBC are not intelligent enough to make runs inside out from both side to confuse the defense.

Frankly, what a team produces on the pitch is a factor of the coaching they receive in training week to week. It's the simplest truth of football. Simeone has drilled it into his team to move into open space aggressively on counter, just like Mou did when he was coach here, and we were the best counter attacking side in europe by miles. Pep drills his team into playing a specific way, and they do. Klopp is another one.

What i have the biggest issues with is the way we use the ball. We have far too much talent in contrast of how poorly we utilize the ball to generate possession, and chances. We dont generate any offense at times it's shocking. The way Sporting assaulted us at home in CL, Wolfsburg last year? In my opinion a disgrace, there is no scenario in which that's even remotely acceptable.

Look, young coach or not, if this team is not doing something it's because they are not working on it. In a way, we are thankful to Zidane for having unified the team but he should also be thankful for having started his career with the amount of players we have in their prime and at the highest level of european football. Because we win with Talent up front, and with collective compromise, not out of collective superiority generated by some added value he brought to the training pitch.

He has been here for 9 months, and i see nothing that he brought to this team other than "team spirit". in the absolute it was perfectly what this team needed, but for the sake of this thread and argument, it is not enough. I dont want to waste time discussing the abrasive manner in which guest7 created the post, but in essence he has a point, and to me a valid one. Anyway, i welcome anyone to share their opinion, but what i find the most annoying are the ones who think playing better or juego de posicion = tiki taka possession ala Barca. it tells me a lot here dont know what positional football is and how important it is in terms of creating superiorities all over the pitch. In a way i am thankful we have seen Italy 2016 because they were applying their own version of positional football while being a superb defensive team with very little talent.

ps: any jibe at zizou emulating pep is basically a jibe at Sports who was telling us how Zizou spent months studying his systems and Bielsa's and he would be replicating their attacking football yadi yada yeah right Laughing

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Casciavit on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:16 am

This is a pretty interesting discussion. On one hand, Zidane's results have been fantastic, on the other hand, it seems like Madrid lacks an identity, a style.

The players believe in him and listen to him, so I don't think he'd have much trouble in implementing an identity and convincing them of that said identity. IMO when you watch Madrid, you should have an idea of what you are going to watch. This goes for every big club, but more so for Madrid, since they're arguably the biggest club in the world.

It doesn't have to be champagne football, it just has to be an identity. If we look recently, you had a counterattacking one under Mou, Carlo started all the creative players and played a balanced compact 4-4-2/4-3-3, but what exactly is the identity Madrid has under Zidane?

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by FennecFox7 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:43 am

@guest7 wrote:You can play attacking football and win with this team, just sayin'. This team is that good.


Yeah, just like last season with Rafa right? Clueless as usual

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:44 am

Thanks for chipping in Casc, i greatly enjoyed your post in the Ribery section. You are one of those who understand what positional football is, and that it doesnt necessarily equate to tiki taka barca way.

Because it has become systematic around these part that if you want play better football, then you want possession football, thus tiki taka which is to be hated since it's the enemies style. I wish things were that simple... actually i am glad they are not.

Playing quality football has dozen of nuances, if we could cover a few layers, i'll be happy.But i dont actually think Zidane is capable of achieving any of that

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by vanDEEZ on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:47 am

As much as I love Carlo, I don't feel like RM had any more 'identity' under him than under ZZ. Besides, 'identity' isn't always a good thing. Under Mou it was rough counter attacking, which was far from anything beautiful.

Also need to keep in mind, we saw Carlo for 2 years, Mourinho for 3, we haven't even had Zidane for a full season.

Zidane is a new manager who I think has a balanced style of play, who in the future may develop a more refined style of play to meet this forum's ridiculous standards.

Until then, is winning enough?
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by FennecFox7 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:00 am

Identity is overrated. I love peps style, I love the way he has his team plays, but I don't think we can do that. And ZZ isn't that type of coach, but he keeps it simple and effective, enough for us to win.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:21 am

i do remember when sports made that post. it was actually in reference to me because i didn't get why people were keen on zidane being manager, and since i have no interest in watching castilla i was curious about his methods were over there that made people so keen....or if it was just the allure that came with having a former player become manager?

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:38 am

castilla was nothing impressive under zidane, make no mistake.

and to both Deez and Fennec, i dont think this thread is about winning or not. Clearly we play enough to do, and having the time to discuss about team aesthetic or footbaling quality is a luxurywe have.

If all you care is about win or losses, then respectfully dont post in here.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:43 am

@casciavit, you are wrong...why? if zidane decides he wants to play 5 at the back (varane, ramos, and nacho); pepe and casemiro in holding midfield, with kroos/modric infront of them, then goes in front of the press and declares real madrid's new identity is to defend, defend, defend...that too is an identity is it not? and that identity will see him crucified (besides it being very foolish putting every defender on the pitch)

you've also referenced carlo and mou, and somewhat lauded them for at least having an "identity"- well, if you read through this thread neither of those two managers have gotten any praise on here. the only manager referenced in this thread that has gotten any ounce of praise is guardiola

so NO, this isn't about an "identity", from my understanding, this is about the "identity" being an interesting brand of football. i have no problems with that, i understand fans especially of spanish clubs, (besides atleti of recent, and valencia of old) want to watch eye-pleasing footy. so don't bring the lack of identity rhetoric; when the other two who had identities have also been criticized

and i still maintain, all of them have basically played the same way. the second goal today (beautiful goal btw) has been a typical kind of goal by madrid under mou carlo and rafa.
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:54 am

mrnick, the team has won 1 league title in like 7 or 8 years, you can't expect fans to ignore the concerns that come with wins and losses in any real madrid thread. 1 liga title in that long, will always raise questions about risk associated with anything we want to implement. its not a circus, we play every game to get maximum points...beauty is part of it, it can go hand in hand. but with certain elements around, whether it should override everything is a fair question to ask.
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:14 am

I would actually argue that my qualms with the way we play has more to do with efficiency on possession than pure aesthetic. It's about leveraging the talent we have to be less exposed in games such as the one we had today, and to make sure we win on a more consistent but also decisive manner.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Adit on Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:13 am

We have only 1 league title in 8 years exactly because we played structure less football so we always struggled against the top teams in La Liga.

Like todays match we wastes the first half not moving the ball properly and ends up regretting the lack of time in second half. The inefficient ball movement is because of lack of positional play. I was amazed how despite having 3vs2 and 4 vs 3 in our favor today we turned the ball over in the end because we couldn't position ourselves properly. They were either too close to each other or too far apart to take advantage. If we don't learn or coach teach them to take advantage of numerical advantage and create numerical advantage then we will never be able to move the ball through the center. Which is there to see with our dependent on crossing.


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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by Casciavit on Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:28 am

@Nick

I've been learning about the concept for about two years now. It has given me another outlook on football and massively improved my general and tactical knowledge. If you are ever free sometime, I wouldn't mind discussing some of the finer nuances of the idea.

Regarding Z, I think it was you (I'm not sure), but when he was hired I translated a spielverlagerung article that analyzed some of his games in Castilla and the author complained that his side lacked connections due to the poor off the ball movement and that the Castilla players lacked ideas on the ball. He said this was either down to the players not being good enough or Zidane's failing to properly show what he wants from them.

Judging by this thread and some of the others in the Madrid section, it seems like the latter is the problem.

@VanDeez

You are right those coaches had lots of time and had more experience than Zidane, but I think after 9 months it's time for Zidane to show his thing. He's won trophies, and the players believe in him, do you not think it's time for Zidane to put his own stamp on the team?

@Titosantil

Let's not go to extremes here. When I say identity, I'm talking about Zidane putting his own stamp on the team, which I don't feel like he has. When Mourinho and Ancelotti were there, you could tell that it was THEIR teams. I don't get the same feeling from Zidane.

At Madrid, the expectation is attacking football because you are the biggest club in the world and have some of the best talents in the world.

Pep has brought positional attacking football into the scene, and people love watching that style. For a team that wants attacking football, why are you surprised that fans want to see something like that and use his teams as an example as to how they want Madrid to play?

When Zidane was hired I said that the style wasn't important, due to the mess Benitez created. However, in time he should put his own stamp on the team, but whenever I watch your games I don't get that feeling. That's all I'm saying.

I guess this conversation means nothing if Madrid continues to win despite having some flaws, but I don't believe they will. These weaknesses will get exploited regardless of individual talent.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by sportsczy on Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:56 am

I think he has.  It's very clear for me actually.  The basis for his style is a compact and solid defensive shape.  The only variable there is how much freedom he gives the fullbacks and even the CBs.  In away games and against good opponents, there is very little freedom and he demands complete discipline.  In other games, those players have the opportunity to move up the pitch if there's an opening.

Same with the CMs... their primary role is to block the oppoent's attack and force the play wide.  You rarely ever see teams being able to attack us through the middle anymore.  Every attack is pushed wide since the CMs flood the middle defensively with the idea that the sideline will limit them and act as an ally.  

Because the focus is on protecting our goal....   the attack suffers.  It would look better if the CMs were athletic enough and had the skill to project themselves from attack to defense and vice versa quickly and under duress.  But that's not the profile of our CMs.  We either have to get control of the midfield to settle our attacking game or we rely on counter attacks and plays from the front 3.

As expected, we are able to assert more control in the midfield and pass it forward as the game goes along since the opponent gets tired and can't pressure our CMs as much (standard tactic against Real Madrid).  

It's very very very methodical.  It lacks offensive flare... but who cares really.

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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by halamadrid2 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:18 am

If we manage to beat both Villarreal and Las Palmas we have a bunch of easy games until the local derby against Atleti in late November then an easy home game vs Gijon before the Clasico

Schedule

Real Madrid vs Villarreal
Las Palmas vs Real Madrid
Real Madrid vs Eibar
Real Betis vs Real Madrid
Real Madrid vs Bilbao
Alaves vs Real Madrid
Real Madrid vs Leganes
Atleti vs Real Madrid
Real Madrid vs Gijon
El Clasico

The hardest games are going to be our next 2 games. Can't wait to destroy the record tbh Proud
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:36 am

i'm not against the conversation or people's desire to want whatever kind of football they want. my prime belief is, the profile of the players we have especially in midfield doesn't suit what it is people want. modric and kroos, fantastic players; will walk into almost any team....running behind defenders isn't their forte. playing long passes from deep and recycling possession is their thing. even for their national teams that's how they play

if you critique zidane for not delving into the market to curtail that problem of not having one who can penetrate defenses or passes in the final third, i'm with you. the front 3 should have the skillset to do that, but it resembles 3 CFs than a striker and two wingers.

my prime disagreement as i've repeated constantly is, modric and kroos aren't going to all of a sudden start doing things they hardly do with their countries, nor with any other former madrid managers despite whoever's managing the team. the concerns could have been addressed in the window (not by spending 9 figures on a central midfielder), but for whatever reason we stayed quiet

another prime reason they pass wide is because they've got bale and cristiano as the primary targets. cristiano's the talisman, its not rocket science that a lot of passes will go towards the left flank....a leopard doesn't change its spots; modric and kroos won't start playing joga bonito even if the coach showed them how. the front 3 hardly dribble in tight spaces, at their ages i doubt they'll all of a sudden start doing that...marcelo remains the best dribbler on the side, but not the best of passers
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Re: In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

Post by titosantill on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:42 am

introducing an inspired james in attacking mid, not CM and letting the attack go through him, might actually change the style a bit. because now you'll have a more dynamic player who can beat opponents, run behind defenders, create in the final third and not sit deep in the middle of the park. but you might sacrifice something on defense doing that, considering as i mentioned earlier, you already have two wingers who don't track back; a wing back who hardly defends, ramos who can be ramos....add an attacking midfielder who also may not defend and voila

i do hope to see more of james with casemiro out, at least before we face any top side. i just wish we had brought in a reasonable back up for the brazilian. filling the side with no rough and tumble midfielder seems very shaky.
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