In my history Zidane's Real Madrid is the worst footballing side I've seen

introducing an inspired james in attacking mid, not CM and letting the attack go through him, might actually change the style a bit. because now you'll have a more dynamic player who can beat opponents, run behind defenders, create in the final third and not sit deep in the middle of the park. but you might sacrifice something on defense doing that, considering as i mentioned earlier, you already have two wingers who don't track back; a wing back who hardly defends, ramos who can be ramos....add an attacking midfielder who also may not defend and voila

i do hope to see more of james with casemiro out, at least before we face any top side. i just wish we had brought in a reasonable back up for the brazilian. filling the side with no rough and tumble midfielder seems very shaky.

That might happen with Casemiro injured Tito. The sensible thing to do is keep both Modric and Kroos back as neither is good enough defensively to sit alone in front of the back 4. It would, however, put a lot of responsibility on James. But he has the talent to do it.

Right now, we're playing like this:
Casemiro
Modric Kroos

It would change to:
Modric Kroos
James

Interesting that Sports is now saying they will now play the way he said would never work, if Casemiro got hurt!

I for the most part agree with Nick on this. Nothing to the extreme that guest and Adit were saying, but we do want an improved offensive game, yet we don't want it at the expense of a leaky defense.

His comparison to Italy in the Euros is a good one. Unfortunately (for me), I was quite impressed with that team. The Spanish team had more talent, an identity (with some weaknesses - most notably lack of goal scorer and weaknesses on defense) played with the possession game that Sports and others refer to. Yet that Italian team with far less notable talent was by far the better team, playing a different sort of possession game that Nick is referring to.

I also agree with Nick that the style or identity is grilled into the players by way of practice. If I recall correctly, Zidane used these opportunities, at least last season to get the players in shape, something somehow amiss under Rafa and concentration on team defensive setup and play.

What we see on the field is that defensive shape and concentration, but on offense we don't see any off the ball movement, at least in terms of getting play forward. There is no movement to open forward spaces nor triangles being formed by the midfielders nor the forwards nor that laterals. The only movement I see is between the 2 CBs and the midfield, occasionally the laterals. Then there is the horizontal play between the midfielders.

What Isco and James bring to the table is that verticality, but also a weakness to the defense, that is if both players play up to their potential. I don't agree that Modric can't do this as well and even Kross has done so with Germany.

So I don't agree we don't have the players to do this, but Zidane has to want, plan and teach this.

Otherwise, we end up playing what used to be the boring Italian game, which is surprising coming from an ex excellent offensive player. I, being the eternal optimist, like to think that Zidane is concentraing on player harmony, fitness and team defense first, but will eventually start imposing the offensive tactics, his identity if you will.

titosantill wrote:i'm not against the conversation or people's desire to want whatever kind of football they want. my prime belief is, the profile of the players we have especially in midfield doesn't suit what it is people want. modric and kroos, fantastic players; will walk into almost any team....running behind defenders isn't their forte. playing long passes from deep and recycling possession is their thing. even for their national teams that's how they play

if you critique zidane for not delving into the market to curtail that problem of not having one who can penetrate defenses or passes in the final third, i'm with you. the front 3 should have the skillset to do that, but it resembles 3 CFs than a striker and two wingers.

my prime disagreement as i've repeated constantly is, modric and kroos aren't going to all of a sudden start doing things they hardly do with their countries, nor with any other former madrid managers despite whoever's managing the team. the concerns could have been addressed in the window (not by spending 9 figures on a central midfielder), but for whatever reason we stayed quiet

another prime reason they pass wide is because they've got bale and cristiano as the primary targets. cristiano's the talisman, its not rocket science that a lot of passes will go towards the left flank....a leopard doesn't change its spots; modric and kroos won't start playing joga bonito even if the coach showed them how. the front 3 hardly dribble in tight spaces, at their ages i doubt they'll all of a sudden start doing that...marcelo remains the best dribbler on the side, but not the best of passers

I think you are missing the point completely. This is not just about Modric and Kroos not running behind defenders or hitting the box, it is part of the problem of the non existent positional play. It is not the problem.

The lack of proper ball movement when we have the ball, starting from the back is the problem. Our ball movement is inefficient and fails to take advantage of numerical superiority all over the pitch not just in midfield. To move the ball players have to be free to receive the ball and take up proper positions on the pitch which we lack.

Positional football isn't about Pep Guardiola if anyone thinks that way. Even defensive and counter attacking teams can bring positional football to their game which improves their football multiple times. I think we are missing out on a footballing revolution frankly.

Relying on individual brilliance is depending on luck, it can't be a game plan, it can only be a get out of jail free card in certain situations but never as a game plan. We use it as game plan which is why we are always expecting Ronaldo to bail out or Ramos to score that header.

ExactlyvAdit the heart of the problem here is out inefficient and poor we are at leveraging our talent. I don't know if I will go as far as saying that we are missing out on a revolution because that form of playing has been around for a while, but we are certainly not doing anything to catch up.

Zidane, just like Mourinho, Carlo and Benitez is incapable of making it happen. If he could we would have seen the results already.

That we struggle so much and play so poorly vs the likes of espanyol is a disgrace. It should not happen in this day and age and saying that we are away without CR and Bale so it's normal is just making excuses for Zidane.

Completely agree with Adit as well.

You can't play a certain way if the mix of players you have are not suited to execute it.  And the bigger issue:  The Euro was this summer.  So Modric, Kroos, Ronaldo, Bale, Pepe, etc. weren't even available for training camp or preseason.  Benzema was injured. ZZ couldn't implement something new even if he wanted to with half his regulars being unavailable.

In this sense, Pep was lucky (since he's the one you all have a man crush on).  The England team got knocked off nice and early in the euro and the copa america also ended very early.  So almost his entire City squad was available for training camp.  The only missing piece was Sagna since France went to the final.

ffs.

lol you all have mentioned different things at different times. which is why i stated before that though we are trying to analyze the aesthetics of our game, even those who agree i think have different approaches. my talk about modric and kroos was mainly a rebuttal to "the midfielders not running behind the defense, and not playing through balls in the final third". my talk about the attack was in response to the same argument levied at them (i have criticized the front 3 last season for not doing more btw, especially from an individual standpoint)

everything i've said here has been a rebuttal. and the main reason why i and others have spoken about differences with pep is because you guys brought him up. we didn't blindly assume that any form of possession play is pep related. but when people post things like "if you look at guardiola's teams for example", or "if pep had this team", you can't be surprised that people will either assume that's what u're looking for or that people might critique it. if you use simeone as an example, we'll asses his style and critique it. we didn't pluck pep's name from thin air, people mentioned what pep would have done, and we responded

its only in recent post that italy 2016's system has now been brought up. and the system they used is largely different from ours no matter which way you want to slice it both in terms of formation and personnel. they have more bodies in midfield, actual wingers and two CFs. if we want to adopt any of these systems suggested, a formation change is necessary. not to mention, we saw them use that over the course of what, like 4 or 5 games? with the best being against spain and belgium...its much different over the course of a season....a lot of that mirrors the juve system if you ask me, i think you might need to address the formation if you want something along that ilk, i dunno

all i'm asking is that we analyze things with the formation for a second. sports is right, look at the players' strengths and weaknesses as well as the system. the front 3 are pushed far up front, one winger's a poacher, the other sometimes runs with the ball and has the tendency to bundle things at times, the cf primarily does one touch pass and move. he gets the ball does one touch to whoever is there and runs.

to execute what some of you want, they might have to actually play like wingers, drop deep and combine more with the midfield 3, i doubt they have any interest in that. the main thing one can ask of them is better interplay between each other in the final third especially when teams park the bus

as far as building from the back, which only mrnick has brought up. you'll need marcelo to do better with the ball than do trick passes in the defensive half; even with his teammate close to him, he still attempts a trick pass that confuses said teammate, ramos to be disciplined. casemiro all of a sudden being a good passer of the ball, wasn't it on here people criticized casemiro for his passing? the CMs will need to draw closer to him so he has an outlet, thus making the front 3 drop deep as well

to carry out what it is y'all have mentioned, i reckon u'll need to not only suggest "let's play proper possession game", or "let's play a more aesthetically pleasing game", but you'll need to put forward the best lineup/formation that suits that play e.g. you want runs behind defenses, you only need one alonso-type player on the pitch; you want pressing you need the front 3 to join in or have one or more of them benched; you want better build up from the back, you may not want hoof ball pepe, or marcelo giving the ball away

@Tito
Just going on an assumption here but in Nick's defense, he is watching Man City playing (to some extent) how Pep wants them to play i.e this positional football stuff and I reckon in his (and mine) mind, our players are no way inferior to them. So if City players can do that, why not our guys. All my own assumption on this mind you.

I, of course, have little faith in our back line to be disciplined or even tactically aware to perform such tasks especially when you have Sergio "it's Ramos time" Ramos and Marcelo. Pepe and Carvajal can but one is very limited in technique and the other is just one guy.

Same goes with our forwards. Our midfielders, however, yeah, I think they can pull it off. Probably...

Interesting thread. Adit I understand what you are saying but saying position play is a very specific concept that less than handfull of managers execute at top level football. Sure you can have numerical superiority in counters and overloads but the automatisms and the structure have to be coached. The modern version was pretty much created by Cruijf. It seems like there is a lack of understanding to how tyhe concept works. Zidane can't just wake up and say he wants to implement it. Arsene Wenger doesn't even use it properly as ARsenal rely more on individual players free styling without any structure in the final 3rd. You say positional play isn't about Pep, but he is the biggest proponent of the concept.

Even if Zidane can coach it, do you think CR will be constantly making himself available, running to create space for others consistently, something he has never shown his whole career? Your tactics are dictated by the players you have and then you have. Zidane is doing his best with the players based on the past. Madrid are a counter attacking team because to get the best out of CR and Bale you need to counter, it is that simple. Barcelona's position game is almost non existent in the opposition half and relies exclusively on the individual brilliance of MSNiesta and this is a club that at least had CRuijffs ideas ingrained to them although that is fading very quickly.

Simply put, Zidane is coaching like an Italian manager. The team will need massive restructuring if you want to even think of applying concepts of the position game. At the end of the day I think that Pep's Barcelona has made it seem like there is only one way to play good football. It would require all the players to work very hard for it to be pulled off effectively and as long as CR is there, it won't be implemented effectively.

Zidane has done a remarkable job for me. He is no Pep but he doesn't have to be. I Madrid win all 6 competitions they are in this year I don't think anyone will complain. Everyone wants some sort of signature style now but it's not that easy. Zidane is of the ilk of SAF. Do the best with what you have and win.

i agree our players are not inferior to city's, mine and sport's point from the jump has been we have different types of players playing different roles. xabi alonso is (imo) a better footballer than ozil, doesn't mean he'll do what ozil does on the offensive end. to get to what people might want, the team as a whole might have to follow a whole different approach and formation. tough for a coach to do coming off the back of a win especially if he believes in the side

and that's probably my biggest criticism with regards zidane, cos i thought we should have made some moves over the summer, considering our issues with teams that sit deep. i'm not however going to suggest that he go out of character and start experimenting with things he has little to no idea about yet...he's a novice coach, with the most high pressure job in football, and a side that has some inadequacies.....that's my last post on this topic, to avoid me repeating points i've made.....good convos though

@tito...  For those whom both ZZ and management agreed upon, we tried to get those players.  But we were either outbid for them (Pogba) or they were simply unavailable (Alaba and Lewandowski).  The other issue was that Zidane didn't have the power to make transfers alone.  He could only suggest.  Flo and his crew make those decisions.  At least, Zidane was allowed to approve or veto moves.  From what I heard, the reason for the very quiet summer was a significant difference of opinion regarding whom Madrid should buy and sell.  It was a recipe for complete stagnation in our transfers.  Zidane didn't want players that he didn't rate and Flo & Co. weren't willing to break the bank for players that they didn't feel were worth it.

In the end, Zidane would rather give cantera players a chance if he feels those he's being offered via transfer aren't significantly better.  He has incredible (and maybe misplaced) belief in the Castilla players.  That's because he got his chance in France and went through that system... all clubs in France trust their youth players first.  It's just the culture here, whether by choice or necessity.  I think he wants to bring that culture to Madrid (which we did have in the past btw).

@jibers.  The SAF comparison is a good one in terms of approach (i'm not saying his SAF so people calm down lol).  He believes in the club's youth system and he implements the system he feels will win first and foremost.  After that, whether the team plays a certain style or not is entirely reliant on whether he feels it gives the club the best chance to win.

@doc. As tito mentioned, it's not the quality of the players... it's the type of players. We could pull it off IF we benched 2 of BBC and played 2 of James, Isco or Vasquez in their place. Then, you would actually have the 2 wide forwards who would help defensively in ball recovery and would also significantly contribute in build up. You can't do it if you play 3 strikers with the profiles of ours.

You guys are telling me that our players aren't the type we can coach to play slow organied build up from the back.... you are all on drugs

Mr Nick09 wrote:You guys are telling me that our players aren't the type we can coach to play slow organied build up from the back.... you are all on drugs

I'm not saying you can't but is Zidane even capable of coaching position play? It's a very specific concept hat as I said, a handful of managers can actual coach. Pep could do it because he is a genius and he learnt it from it's originator Cruijff. Lillo, Paco and Tuchel even started implementing it after having meetings with Guardiola.

Also Counter attacking football is the antithesis to using a consistent position game. With CR and Bale, your team is built to operate a certain way. It would be like when AvB went to Chesea and tried to change the style and couldn't implement it because Chelsea seem designed to play powerful counter attacking football.

Do you honestly think CR would work to create space for others and press and cover passing lanes consistently? Defensive phase is a big part of the concept. Just imagine, CR constantly running back, pressing his full back over the course of the season...i tried and the CR in my head is just laughing at me

The main players you have are geared towards CA and if you want a position game, you need a coach that can implement it and Zidane has never shwon he can and does he even coach Madrid or leave it up to his assistants? He seems more like a SAF/Blanc manager than an actual coach who corrects body positioning etc More of a figure head. Madrid are about to renew CRs contract for life.

I can't believe people still use the argument that players are not fit for positional football

Just like every other argument against tiki taka, they are all false. CR can play in any system, just like any great player can. They are special one of a kind players that are monsters at whatever they need to do.

I bet Pep would die to have CR in his team, it's so sad I'll never see it to prove all the haters wrong though. Like really I'm sad about it. It gets me depressed to see Madrid play like this *sigh*

So I would like to pose a few questions, since it is very easy to be critical.  Much more difficult to actually pose a viable solution.

1.  Who should be our manager?
2.  How would we play under this manager?
3.  How would this improve our 2016/17 season so far?

guest7 wrote:I can't believe people still use the argument that players are not fit for positional football

Just like every other argument against tiki taka, they are all false. CR can play in any system, just like any great player can. They are special one of a kind players that are monsters at whatever they need to do.

I bet Pep would die to have CR in his team, it's so sad I'll never see it to prove all the haters wrong though. Like really I'm sad about it. It gets me depressed to see Madrid play like this *sigh*

Except CR has shown throughout his career he is incapable of playing it. Pep would never want CR in his team, what would he offer him? He doesn't get involved in build up play, he ins't good between the lines and is only there to finish moves off that the teams create and he is trigger happy with his shots. Would he run every single game to create space for others? Close dpwn the opposition, cover other players and be willing to score less as his position now is not feasible as he is not a #9? He would never be a winger in Peps system. He isn't good in one vs ones and would constantly come inside so he can get goals and cause the team to lose numerical superiority which is the main tactical crux of the whole concept. CR has played in the same system all his career, counter attacking.

If you can't understand that then not only do you lack an understanding of Pep and positional play in general, it seems you know very little about the sport. What next? Messi would be useful in a team that defends with 10 men behind the halfway line? And tiki taka doesn't exist except in the media. It doesn't mean anything so that kind of sums up your debate.

Nice post jibs guest clearly doesn't understand footy, the guy said mou coached good footy ffs .

Too many wanna be elitist fans in this section/Madrid fans in general, always bitching about something, and when there is real issues in the team their too stupid to realize or trying to deflect blame on other players.

I'm a wait until after 10 games or so, until the team is settled back into a rhythm then wait for another stupid thread, about something stupid and minor.

Mr Nick09 wrote:ExactlyvAdit the heart of the problem here is out inefficient and poor we are at leveraging our talent. I don't know if I will go as far as saying that we are missing out on a revolution because that form of playing has been around for a while, but we are certainly not doing anything to catch up.

Zidane, just like Mourinho, Carlo and Benitez is incapable of making it happen. If he could we would have seen the results already.

That we struggle so much and play so poorly vs the likes of espanyol is a disgrace. It should not happen in this day and age and saying that we are away without CR and Bale so it's normal is just making excuses for Zidane.

Complete utter nonsense all you guys talk about is dribblers and pace whores, there is nothing wrong with the team stop making stuff up.

what you guys need to do is stick to YouTube, watch your highlights and keep your idea's to yourselves.

constantly looking down on a team you support cause there not enough YouTube friendly players on it, its disgusting no wonder you guys love isco so much, since he does nothing but dribbling now he is bench warmer wow, but want a way more proven and complete mid like kroos out of the team, cause he lacks of shitty dribbles and pace, can't wait until the team wins some more trophies so I can read them fake praises like last season.

chad4401 wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:ExactlyvAdit the heart of the problem here is out inefficient and poor we are at leveraging our talent. I don't know if I will go as far as saying that we are missing out on a revolution because that form of playing has been around for a while, but we are certainly not doing anything to catch up.

Zidane, just like Mourinho, Carlo and Benitez is incapable of making it happen. If he could we would have seen the results already.

That we struggle so much and play so poorly vs the likes of espanyol is a disgrace. It should not happen in this day and age and saying that we are away without CR and Bale so it's normal is just making excuses for Zidane.

Complete utter nonsense all you guys talk about is dribblers and pace whores, there is nothing wrong with the team stop making stuff up.

what you guys need to do is stick to YouTube, watch your highlights and keep your idea's to yourselves.

constantly looking down on a team you support cause there not enough YouTube friendly players on it, its disgusting no wonder you guys love isco so much, since he does nothing but dribbling now he is bench warmer wow, but want a way more proven and complete mid like kroos out of the team, cause he lacks of shitty dribbles and pace, can't wait until the team wins some more trophies so I can read them fake praises like last season.

in which part of my text did i talk about dribblers or pace whores? I am talking about creating situations of advantage for the talented players we have, like 1v1 for bale, how to capitalize on CR's runs with through balls, being disciplined and consistent building from the back

another example of you clogging up threads with your nonsensical rhetoric. you have become an idiot and i refuse to discuss with you. Please do not quote me again as arguing with you is a complete waste of time nowadays. go kick rock or something. good day

jibers wrote:

guest7 wrote:I can't believe people still use the argument that players are not fit for positional football

Just like every other argument against tiki taka, they are all false. CR can play in any system, just like any great player can. They are special one of a kind players that are monsters at whatever they need to do.

I bet Pep would die to have CR in his team, it's so sad I'll never see it to prove all the haters wrong though. Like really I'm sad about it. It gets me depressed to see Madrid play like this *sigh*

Except CR has shown throughout his career he is incapable of playing it. Pep would never want CR in his team, what would he offer him? He doesn't get involved in build up play, he ins't good between the lines and is only there to finish moves off that the teams create and he is trigger happy with his shots. Would he run every single game to create space for others? Close dpwn the opposition, cover other players and be willing to score less as his position now is not feasible as he is not a #9? He would never be a winger in Peps system. He isn't good in one vs ones and would constantly come inside so he can get goals and cause the team to lose numerical superiority which is the main tactical crux of the whole concept. CR has played in the same system all his career, counter attacking.

If you can't understand that then not only do you lack an understanding of Pep and positional play in general, it seems you know very little about the sport. What next? Messi would be useful in a team that defends with 10 men behind the halfway line? And tiki taka doesn't exist except in the media. It doesn't mean anything so that kind of sums up your debate.

First of all, you can't say that CR is incapable of doing it, i would assume you mean integrating another idea of play, when he has never been coached by a manager capable of it in the first place.

You talk about CR being a winger in Pep system but look at what Pep did with Muller in Bayern. He is even worse than CR in 1v1, yet pep created schemes to give him that freedom to move around lewandowski and to be successful. the 1v1 were left to costa and the other winger most of the time. you argue that CR would not have the same intelligence of movements or tactical discipline, that's a fair point, but then again positional football isnt so much about playing a high line, pressing high etc. This is what i have an issue with.

Everybody here is making the false assumption that we are asking about somekind of sub barca type football, no. There are a lot of elements that you can draw from it, without looking like Barca. I took a very simple example to make my case in this thread.

Building from the back is mainly done with the GK, the CBs, the DM and the CMs. you can create any variation of how you want your DM or FBs to move to open space for the CF.  Even at this aspect we fail at. It's getting as bad as seeing Casemiro being completely ignored when we try to play from the back. You see Modric dropping in that DM zone to be the first receiver, and Casemiro moving up vertically and having no clue about using the half space in modric right CM zone to become a passing option. This is not acceptable. And again, i am not talking about gegenpressing, i am talking about playing from the fcking back. one example.

You might be right that with our attacking line playing very high up the pitch is not the most effective way to play. I have nothing wrong about us dropping deep to defend when we have to that. yet that still doesnt excuse the poor usage of the ball when we try to play forward. And i would even argue that as we are now, we are not as good a counter attacking team we were under mourinho.

The part of your text where you hyped Lucas Silva I suppose (:

all this garbage man.

Mourinho would get beaten down if he were to face this current team. We actually have a "midfield" on our current setup compared to Mou Madrid.

Jibers can be kek-worthy at times but in this case he is absolutely correct. A matter of profiles, concepts, and decisions to make. Zidane has done his best with what he has and what he knows in context of the former so far. We're a counter team first and foremost. our attackers are counter attacking kings. We won 2 CL doing this, lets not fix what isnt broken. need only refine.

And this is not the worst footballing side of Madrid. That belongs to Juande Ramos.

I have been away for a while now. what the hell has this section transpired to in my absence? is like the football IQ went down double digits.

This is unbelievable stuff really