Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

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Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Kaladin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:36 pm

You have come so far since Serie B. Won many trophies and done very well in Champions League even though you haven't actually won it. 2 finals in 3 years is a strong achievement anyhow. Constantly mentioned among the elite clubs, like Real, Bayern and Barca. Yet elite clubs don't bow down to the whims of others. Vidal, Pogba, Sandro, Coman and soon to be Dybala, this is the definition of a stopgap club, i'm not trying to insult you here, but this is the reality. If you want to win the CL, you have to do with an iron fist like the big clubs. Atleti made the final in 2 years and are now on a downward trend, you risk the same thing with semi rebuilding the squad every summer. Juve must be seen as a force to be reckoned with, sure all is well if you get 70m for Sandro, but why? He's already played well under Juve, why the effort to replace him? Is turning over a profit that much vital for you? You the richest team in Italy, who's still looking for cut price deals on Szczęsny and signing Schick on loan. This core of players is not lasting long, and cycling through players every 2 years is not helping at all. You need to wake up and seize this moment, and stop beating around the bush.


Last edited by ES on Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Luca on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:48 pm

For every one of those sales there's be an equal or greater investment. Not to mention all of those players mentioned were bought and sold on a higher margin.

What's the problem?

Not a single one of those players have exactly prospered upon leaving and we've done equally as good or better in each continuing season.

Now, if we're talking about a downward trend. It happens. All cycles must end and just like Buffon must hang up his gloves, it'll happen. But I won't be because we sold Alex Sandro or whichever agenda is being pushed this summer on us. It'll be because we have an aging group of our core players and it'll take a bit of time to transition and maybe some serie a fodder will actually mount a half decent challenge.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Kaladin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:50 pm

Do you think the sale of Sandro is warranted or necessary?
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Luca on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Necessary? No.

Warranted? Perhaps. That's a massive offer for a left back. He was one of our key players the last two seasons. But 70M for a left back? Who wouldn't entertain such an offer?

We'll see what happens. I'd much rather retain him because he's an excellent player. However, whenever we sell a player, I just consider how we use the funds. We've always done well in this area so I hope it continues that way and in which case, no one should b worried.

If there is a time when we start selling our key players and buying young players (for example) for peanuts like an Udinese or Porto type model, then I'll be genuinely concerned about the future of our club.


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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Kaladin on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:35 pm

But thats the crux of the issue here, especially when the core is ageing getting older.

'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'

70m is indeed a gargantuan offer, but this isn't like Juve is begging for it, they are well equipped financially at the moment. Highest earners in the CL over the past 5 years, marketing miasma's everywhere, Emily Ratalewandowski making appearances, they're the sexiest club in the world right now. There is no real reason to sell him, i think, its just really baffling
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 pm

@Luca wrote:Necessary? No.

Warranted? Perhaps. That's a massive offer for a left back. He was one of our key players the last two seasons. But 70M for a left back? Who wouldn't entertain such an offer?



Clubs who don't need the money and realise that no matter how much money you are offered you are unlikely to replace him to an optimal standard.

Put in the same position, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc etc wouldn't accept that offer so why should you.

It's not like you need the money to improve the team, you may be an elite club on the pitch right now but off it you act like EL standard team at best.

The attitude is not one of a winning club to me.

If i didn't know any better i'd think Juventus were a team battling with Atlanta with for EL places with the way it acts sometimes, rather than being one that has been has been to 2 CL finals in the last 3 years.


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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by rincon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:44 pm

I said it months ago when the rumor first came up. If Chelsea offers something absurd for Sandro (like whats being quoted) then go ahead and let the player choose.

Juve isn't as rich as many other teams (Madrid, Barca, EPL giants). Don't overestimate the capabilities. We can't drop as much money every time nor pay the salaries that City, Chelsea, United or Barca give.

So if a ridiculous offer like Sandro's comes then whats the problem? if he stays, great. If he goes? great. That kind of money lets buy another fullback with about a third of the money and then spend on a winger/midfielder which we so desperately need.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by rincon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:03 pm

This is how I see the management's strategy since they arrived (2010).

We were crap, coming from a 7th place finish and recently Serie B. Then Marotta and co. joined and changed almost the entire squad. In the first 2 summers they signed players who would define Juve for the next years. We had no money for offers above 25m basically, also not much appeal. Regardless, they brought Vidal, Licht, Barzagli, Bonucci, Pirlo, Matri, Quagliarella, Vucinic, etc. Those guys, combined with our worthwhile core (Buffon, Chiellini and co.) made the team a success.

So for 3 seasons we had basically the same squad, except changing a few forwards, and adding Pogba for free. Things were very stable. During that time results were the necessity, the club was broke because of spending so much in 2010-12, and so no young players were brought or played (except Pogba).

Then Conte's cycle ended and as such things had to change. The club still relied on the core players, and kept it going for 1 more year.

At this point everybody got old and Vidal was at odds with the management because of indiscipline. The departures were unavoidable (Pirlo and Tevez retiring and Vidal sold).

From here on the management started signing 2 kinds of players. A group for immediate success and, for a change, a ton of young players for the future. Some of the most talented in Italy and abroad. This way success keeps going with the players signed to perform while the rest grows, making sure there is not much downfall form the old retiring.

This is why I don't buy into the panic mode. Every year the club's finances improve. Every year the club acts more ambitiously. Whenever a player is sold, that gets reinvested right away. For every 30 year old that joins to play CL, a 21 year old joins the project. I see it as a great way to keep success and growth going.

To put it into perspective, one of the reasons Conte left was because we couldn't get Cuadrado (and others like him). Now we have Cuadrado on the bench.

Pogba roughly gave us Higuain. If Sandro turns into Bernardeschi and a good right back then sign me up.

When I see them signing Higuain, Pjanic, Khedira, Alves, Benatia, Cuadrado, etc. and then at the same time they sign U23 Dybala, Pjaca, Mandragora, Rugani, Caldara, Schick, Bentancur, Spinazzola, etc. Plus they manage to do it in a sustainable way, then I can only say god bless Marotta, Paratici, Nedved, Agnelli and co.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Tomwin Lannister on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:05 pm

I'd appreciate it if our next shirt sponsors weren't from Exor getting cheap advertising for Jeep. We should be making at least 3x more than we are. Basically, the Alex Sandro money should be mostly there by default for us every season but we're getting trash deals.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Doc on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:11 pm

Pretty sure Madrid would not entertain a 70 mil bid for Dani Carvajal.

Anyway, as Rincon mentioned, the money would help strengthen other areas so it definitely won't be wasted and Jjuve's transfer policy is clearly working for them so far. That being said, selling off a quality full back is not the best of ideas and Jjuve probably should not be entertaining bids for Sandro.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by M99 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:17 pm

Compare it to pre Calciopoli Juventus, only Zidane was sold for a large sum because Madrid offered an unheard of sum for those days. Would Juve have sold Zambrotta if someone offered them a lot of money? Hell no. Mole is right, the attitude of the club is not like that of an elite one any more when it should be.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by rincon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:32 pm

@M99 wrote:Compare it to pre Calciopoli Juventus, only Zidane was sold for a large sum because Madrid offered an unheard of sum for those days. Would Juve have sold Zambrotta if someone offered them a lot of money? Hell no. Mole is right, the attitude of the club is not like that of an elite one any more when it should be.


We sold Pogba for literally an unheard of sum of money. Sandro would be sold for what probably is the most out of any fullback ever too.

We are getting stronger every time (the club as a whole). We signed 3 young forwards for 90m total when this would have sounded absurd 5 years ago (Dybala, Pjaca, Schick). Their strategy is certainly working.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by M99 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:24 pm

Not that unheard of, everyone spends insane money these days, Bale's valuation was not that far of Pogba. Teenagers move around the price Sandro is being sold for. Back in those days no one spent close to what Madrid was, only some Italian teams came close and then again the maximum they spent was like half of what Madrid did for Zidane.

There may very well come a time when Pogba is the undisputed best CM in the world and there is no striker better than Dybala. When will Juve keep their stars like Real, Bayern, Man Utd, and Barca do instead of providing them "educational experiences"? You can keep on replacing your stars for so long, at one point you will inevitably regress like Dortmund and get overtaken by clubs like Man Utd and Chelsea who are buying your stars and have the mentality to keep hold of them (example: De Gea, Hazard).

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by rincon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 pm

@M99 wrote:Not that unheard of, everyone spends insane money these days, Bale's valuation was not that far of Pogba. Teenagers move around the price Sandro is being sold for. Back in those days no one spent close to what Madrid was, only some Italian teams came close and then again the maximum they spent was like half of what Madrid did for Zidane.


This is not true. Figo went for close to that money before, not more difference than Pogba and whoever is next. Same for Crespo and Vieri. We signed Buffon for some 2/3rd of the money too.

@M99 wrote:There may very well come a time when Pogba is the undisputed best CM in the world and there is no striker better than Dybala. When will Juve keep their stars like Real, Bayern, Man Utd, and Barca do instead of providing them "educational experiences"? You can keep on replacing your stars for so long, at one point you will inevitably regress like Dortmund and get overtaken by clubs like Man Utd and Chelsea who are buying your stars and have the mentality to keep hold of them (example: De Gea, Hazard).


You don't realize that right now we can't pay what United or Chelsea can in wages. So what's the alternative? piss everyone off and let them run off their contracts and leave for free like Dortmund did with Lewa?

People have no patience. We are at the top of the world and working to stay there and get richer. We sell 2 players (hypothetically, as this hasn't even happened ffs) for record fees and everyone loses their minds.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by urbaNRoots on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:44 pm

Bayern were offered a record bid for Ribery from Real Madrid and they straight up refused it. Money is not an excuse for top clubs selling their best players.

I'm not a hater at all but the way Marotta deals with his squad is no diffeent than what clubs like Monaco, Porto, Udinese do. It shows a lack of ambition and excessive greed. Juve have been lucky with transfers in recent years but one mistep and they lose their status as the top dog in the league and let alone win the CL.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Robespierre on Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:44 pm

Nah Juve did it also before of Calciopoli ,sold Baggio , sold Vieri to Atletico Madrid, sold Ravanelli just a month after he scored the decisive goal for their last CL won (96) , Inzaghi etc
Expecially Ravanelli explains everything, imagine if Inter sold Milito after the CL '10.
It's always same the Exor' s policy and so Juve's policy, noone is essential or more important than club. Take big money and he'll be replaced worthily. It's the Agnelli policy.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by M99 on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:11 pm

@rincon wrote:
@M99 wrote:Not that unheard of, everyone spends insane money these days, Bale's valuation was not that far of Pogba. Teenagers move around the price Sandro is being sold for. Back in those days no one spent close to what Madrid was, only some Italian teams came close and then again the maximum they spent was like half of what Madrid did for Zidane.


This is not true. Figo went for close to that money before, not more difference than Pogba and whoever is next. Same for Crespo and Vieri. We signed Buffon for some 2/3rd of the money too.

@M99 wrote:There may very well come a time when Pogba is the undisputed best CM in the world and there is no striker better than Dybala. When will Juve keep their stars like Real, Bayern, Man Utd, and Barca do instead of providing them "educational experiences"? You can keep on replacing your stars for so long, at one point you will inevitably regress like Dortmund and get overtaken by clubs like Man Utd and Chelsea who are buying your stars and have the mentality to keep hold of them (example: De Gea, Hazard).


You don't realize that right now we can't pay what United or Chelsea can in wages. So what's the alternative? piss everyone off and let them run off their contracts and leave for free like Dortmund did with Lewa?

People have no patience. We are at the top of the world and working to stay there and get richer. We sell 2 players (hypothetically, as this hasn't even happened ffs) for record fees and everyone loses their minds.


Yeah Figo did, and it was Madrid who bought him. Like I said some Italian clubs came close but 60 million+ was unheard of in those days. Nowadays 60 for Sandro is not a shocker and really Juve should not sell him if they wanna make a statement to other clubs that they are not free to be raided.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Doc on Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:18 pm

Robes is actually correct, had to look it up myself. Jjuve has always done this sort of policy but with one major difference: Juventus, back then, was the best or one of the best clubs in the world. It is easy to replace (aging) stars when you're the big cheese.

When they let go of Baggio, they had Del Piero signed from Padova ready. They let go of Ravenelli and Vialli to have them replaced with some ridiculously good footballers in Vieri, Zidane, Boksic and Lombardo. Then they let go of Vieri, Boksic and Lombardo to replace them with Inzaghi and Davids. Got Henry the year later, he turn out to be a dud of sorts. No biggie, got themselves Darko Kovacevic, Zambrotta and Van Der Sar.

Then Pippo, Zidane, Kovacevic, Van Der Ser were either sold or just let go for Nedved, Thuram, Salas and Buffon.

My disdain for all things Jjuve has just been reignited....

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by rincon on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:04 pm

Its the same as people will say in the future about the current strategy. There is continuity here.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by titosantill on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:07 am

to me, it depends on the talent. you can't question some sales. pogba's replaceable, same goes for vidal, as well as sandro. good players, but they are replaceable, and one doesn't know the financial situation at juventus. another thing is, not only are those players replaceable, even without them, the juve board probably are super confident that their team has a grip on the league. so its a rebuilding process financially that doesn't seem to affect their league position in italy....yet

i doubt if any of these players where once in a lifetime players or players scoring large chunks of goals, juve would sell. winning the league has made other clubs look at their players and want to spend more than normal, if you know you can replace them, still maintain domestic form and pocket much more than they're worth, then go for it

their board is probably saying "see ya sucker" after most of these deals that have taken place in the last 3 or 4 years
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by BarcaLearning on Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:48 am

Reading all this just made me appreciate what good business Juve is doing in general then? Bottom line for many of the directors is money, unless u r one of the clubs where making money isnt really an issues Razz

Also part of it Im pretty sure is comparatively Serie A still overall arent attractive on itself, and maybe the style of football, might not suit many of the biggest stars liking, apart from the wages like many said already. Perhaps it will take a Juve CL win and the league in general to keep improving before they can attract and keep the biggest stars.
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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Mr Nick09 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:16 am

Look 70 mil for a player like Sandro? You take it and you send a private jet for him. Look the guy is not Cafu reincarnate, he is a nice player, thats it

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:42 am

Nick stop acting like you know everything about a player based on one performance in a CL final where the entire team fell apart lol.

He's one of the best LBs in the world, has been since his Porto days anyone who has consistently watched him will tell you that.

Same thing with Dybala, he's a lot better than you think because you haven't watched him enough and dismiss him.

It's no better than stupid PL fans calling Ibra overrated because they only watched him against PL teams.

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:05 am

@Mr Nick09 wrote:Look 70 mil for a player like Sandro? You take it and you send a private jet for him. Look the guy is not Cafu reincarnate, he is a nice player, thats it


This x100

Amazing to see Milan fans selling so much hot air. Will make the inevitable crash down to earth all the more enjoyable to watch Proud

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Re: Juve should not be considered an elite club anymore

Post by Warrior on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:50 am

Juventus is a Lady, maybe one day some people here will understand this.

We like to keep our best players, like any other team, but we don't challenge them when they ask to leave. That's what happened for Pogba. We refuse every offer until it became clear that the player himself wanted out.

Then the Old Lady raise her chin up, make a doleful smile and said "ok". We all know how women act when they feel offended, well Juve acts the same.

The same will happen for Sandro if he handles a proper transfer request. Yes we like to keep our best players and make them legends in our club. But these legends, they need to be passionate lovers for the Lady you know what i mean...

Del Piero, Buffon, Marchisio, Chiellini... all these players have Juve tattooed on their heart and those are the jewels we like to have in Juventus. We'd prefer a team with a (quality) Juventino in every position rather than a 500 millions worth melting pot.

Always been the case btw, this is not a recent trend. Some might say it lacks ambition, well if you say so look at our trophy case and you'll realize you are wrong. Only thing laughable is the 7 lost CL finals, but at least it means we went 9 times to the Holy Grail of football matches.

Milan fans criticizing Juve's transfer policy is the most ironic situation. 7 years of bull shit and now they give us lessons because they bought superstars Kessié + Rodriguez ??
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