Apoel vs Real Madrid

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:45 pm

i would not trust Illarra in front of my defense lol... and as far as him playing better than casemiro, i would not agree either

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:47 pm

Question, now that it seems we are playing 4 midfielders (counting AM as midfielder) or maybe even 5 as I wish, could we leave Casemiro on bench, particularly against lessor teams or park the bus team, and play Kroos deep with Modric and Ceballos or Kovacic up front (and then Isco and or Asensio as AM(s)?
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:49 pm

@Mr Nick09 wrote:i would not trust Illarra in front of my defense lol... and as far as him playing better than casemiro, i would not agree either


Oh well, it was just a thought. I have watched him a lot lately and he is a completely different player than he was here.
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 pm

He was a completely different player before he signed with us too.
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:19 pm

great answer from vandeez....he was also different before we signed him. i never wanted him to begin with, i always felt the role he had at sociedad wouldn't be something he would be able to replicate here. similar to why i didn't want us to sign isco from malaga (albeit different roles/positions).
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by Mr Nick09 on Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:28 am

generally speaking, it's not good to sign players that play a specific role in their teams, designed to make them shine, while they are likely to play a different role/position with less "protection" in ours. It's a lesson we have not yet learned

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:32 am

if the coach doesn't have any say in who's coming, its hard to learn that. ancelotti was still at psg when flo delved into the market that year. he just pretty much said yes to everything (until he got fired, then he like rafa pellegrini queroz et al started talking about how they wanted to do this or that) and it ultimately messed him up.

flo loves good pr, doesn't want to be thrown in the media unnecessarily, managers may not want to risk getting on his bad side, but if you lose u'll get fired regardless, so do what you can to build a side you want, if u win you don't get fired. if you lose, at least you lost on your terms.....carlo did nothing to keep di maria who was actually a revelation in his side
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:40 am

I disagree with that.  You CANNOT say or do anything contrary to what the executives want.  You just can't.  Only place it's tolerated is the EPL and that's because the managers are acting sporting directors.  PSG absolutely won't tolerate it.  Neither does Bayern.  Juve... the same.  And I'm just naming the big clubs.  Rafa got fired halfway through the season at Inter for saying that the club wasn't doing as he wanted with the players.

As the manager, your job is to do the best you can with the players the club provides... end of story.  If you want to get involved in the player personnel decisions, either get it in your contract or go to the EPL.

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:35 pm

you SHOULD not, not 'you cannot' . the manager doesnt get fired for saying to the media who he really wants to keep. if you know you can actually win with them, put pressure on the president. for me its about growing a pair. use the media as your tool instead of being a yes man, like how rafa always praised flo. then he gets fired and goes "well i really wanted to do this that and the other but presi didn't allow". checks and balances...cristiano has done it well as a player cos he's confident in what he can do on the pitch. playing it safe as a madrid manager is protocol but i don't think its the way to go, especially if you really have confidence in what u're doing
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by vanDEEZ on Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:42 pm

I agree with Tito, as a manager, if you are not getting the support you need in order to be successful from the president/higher ups (especially at a club with the resources of RM), then it is on you to speak out. ZZ is probably the most diplomatic manager we have had, so I don't expect him to say anything. That being said, it has gotten to such a rotten level with our front line that if Perez and co are not listening to ZZ behind closed doors to make changes then ZZ should be using the media to put pressure on them. Otherwise he will be out of a job regardless, but because of poor performances not for speaking out.
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:02 pm

That's a very utopian... yet completely naive view. Like any top job with a scarcity of opening in the world, you're looking to keep your job first and foremost. You don't set the culture... you blend into the culture. Once you build a track record of success over years, then you start to try and implement change... as long as the consequences don't involve the likely loss of you job.

This is how the professional world works unless you're an owner or there are so many opportunities for you that you don't care or you're so indispensable that you can't be fired

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:57 pm

Trying to get job security at Madrid? Right, you'd have an easier time finding a needle in a haystack.

Florentino's back closet is filled with the rolling heads of the managers who had the naivety to believe that, by saying yes to him, they would keep their job. No, let's be serious for a second here.

Basically, you have two options when you arrive at Madrid:

1. Either stand up for what you believe in and you might get something out of it.

2. Roll over and become a yes-man, and then eventually get fired anyway.

The two scenarios usually have the same outcome; especially when the manager isn't delivering good results. But if you're winning and have the support of your players, you can bench God and there's nothing Florentino can do to stop you.

Problem with Z is that he's not delivering right now, not to mention that he came out during the summer transfer window to say that he doesn't want to bring anybody here and that he's perfectly content with the squad he has.

Now, to me, that's a stupid and borderline insane thing to say because:

A) If he really meant it, then he should really quit coaching because even someone with an IQ lower than 70 points would know at that point that we were in desperate of strengthening the squad.

B) If he didn't mean it and he was just saying it to please Florentino, then he should quit coaching as well because that would mean he has no spine on top of not having a good tactical mind.

Personally, I think Z is truly content with the squad and that he's the reason behind the sudden change of Florentino's transfer policy.

It's been two years in a row that Florentino hasn't gone crazy in the transfer window and it only happened under Z's reign. 14 years at the helm and we've only witnessed this unusual behavior of his under Z and Z only. That's no coincidence, he obviously listens to him.

Z has his back against the wall here. He's trapped in the hole that he dug himself and the only way to get out of it is to win a major trophy this year. If he doesn't, he'll join the long list of the naive managers whose heads are decorating the back closet of Florentino.

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by titosantill on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:39 pm

i still maintain my view, if you'll get fired anyway, take the risk. madrid will never fire a manager cos he holds a press conference saying i really want this that and the other. i think some are scared they'll actually get what they want and might not deliver so play it safe.

i also refuse, vehemently refuse to believe that zidane is a yes-man. he's a nice guy but he's got some dog in him, and whilst he may not go the mou route by going to the media (and no, he won't head butt flo neither), but he doesn't strike me as a pushover.

also, he was a player, and played in some of the worst periods at this club, he has seen a ton of pushover coaches, and he knows the little respect they receive from flo and players. he has also seen goodey two shoes guys like del bosque get called an s.o.b by a player cos he played the star, and in the end still get fired. so i don't believe this theory that he's flo's puppet and flo just has him coaching. i think he has relatively more input than people think
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:20 am

Entitled to your opinion... but the real world doesn't work that way. Sure zz makes his opinions known in private. But he is a company man in public 100%.

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:37 am

Yeah and you’re entitled to your opinion. I hear socios just as much as your second hand info and I say Tito’s and DoC’s opinion are reality.
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:28 am

Well i hear stuff from ZZ's entourage and you can't be more wrong Bill.  He is more dedicated to the institution of Real Madrid and Flo than any player he may want.  In public, he will always go with the message of Real Madrid, not his own. Different in private. So it all depends on who you believe.

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by futbol_bill on Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:59 pm

Yeah and I hear the opposite from socios and some board members.
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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by The Demon of Carthage on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:04 pm

If what you're saying is really true, if Z is really revealing confidential information to people outside the Bernabeu then he's really  a special kind of stupid.

But I'd like to give him, since there's absolutely no proof to your claims, the benefit of the doubt and assume that the people telling you all this have no idea what they're talking about and are just making up excuses for Z's horrendous and inexcusable results since the beginning of the season.

You would be surprised to know that some people can't handle any criticism, whether it's constructive or not, of their idols. So instead of calling a spade a spade, they try to gather all the excuses in the solar system to justify their idol's royal suckage. I wouldn't rule out the idea of your friends being like that.

The reality is, Z is under-performing right now, and he's entirely responsible for it. He refused to strengthen the squad in the summer after selling one third of his bench and he's trusting a talentless lazy CF to spearhead Madrid's frontline. He has nobody but himself to blame.

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by Doc on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:15 pm

Even if Zidane has little control over transfers (I am really certain he has a genuine say in the team's transfers), he is still gonna get blamed. It's the nature of football clubs, the manager gets blame for essentially everything. Hence why I tend to blame the club in general as, unlike us fans, they (upper management/Perez/Zidane) has a real influence in the running of the club and they watched the entire scope of the team and said "Yup, Benzema, Bale and Ronaldo would do. Mayarol is a good back up and if we don't get Mbappe, it's cool, no one else matters."

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Re: Apoel vs Real Madrid

Post by sportsczy on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:10 pm

The idea Doc was that we had Isco, Asensio and Mayoral to back up BBC. We didn't anticipate that the entire BBC would go down the toilet, Asensio would disappear and we'd actually need Mayoral to step up.

A lot of things have gone wrong in the attack.

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