Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

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Which two teams will progress ?

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Total Votes : 17

Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:44 am

@Sports @Arq

This is the description of Lotito, not ADL.

ADL talks like a clown in the radio to play the show but runs his club in a totally opposite manner. You are stopping at the rhetoric and not looking at the actions.

He is the president who has only sacked 1 coach in 10 years and that was after a regular 3 season cycle. There is not short term impulsive decision. They have grown the club each year, progressively, in the table and in profile.

Everyone is for sale except Hamsik and Insigne, yes, but for huge prices. We should ask Hysaj's agent how "available" ADL makes players on the market. He priced Koulibaly out of the market these years.

Compare the term of Napoli players to how long players spend on other similar clubs. Everyone that succeeds is kept. Which protagonist has left Napoli in the last few years? Jorginho for big money and Higuain for his release clause. Other than them no players since Cavani left in 14. 100% sure everyone here that watches Serie A is able to write down Napoli's starters in recent years more easily than any club but their own. Because Albiol, Koulibaly, Allan, Hamsik, Insigne, Mertens, Ghoulam, Hysaj have been there forever.

They kept Hamsik after many offers from everyone, including us. They replaced Cavani with Higuain in a brilliant move. Every summer they sign young players for the first team while also looking for players in their prime.

It's a sustainable model that is clearly working.

In terms of coaches too. 4 years of Reja, 4 years of Mazzarri, 2 years of Benitez (resigned to join Madrid), 3 years of Sarri, Ancelotti. These were at least appropriate choices, in most cases brilliant. Stability and nothing impulsive about it.

Spending the bulk of the budget on young players is not short term. Fabian, Verdi, Milik, Ounas, Zielinski, Diawara, Meret, Rog, etc. this is long term.

Working with the budgets they've had, they have grown the club faster than anyone could have predicted and they reached a sustainable level.

We are talking about a "crisis" after a 1-0 loss in Anfield where they exit the CL with the same points, GD, and H2H in a group with Liverpool and PSG. Out of here. That is a testament to their work.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:11 pm

@rincon... I'm not saying there's anything wrong in terms of business with what ADL and Aulas are doing. In fact, both are very pragmatic and base their decisions on the risk they're willing to tolerate.

My interpretation of the term "provincial" is limited true ambition despite rhetoric to the contrary. Tbh, OM is becoming like that too.

These clubs are satisfied with their current stature, for various reasons good and bad... there's no ambition to take the next step.

That's my only point.

As far as how clubs are run... Lyon and Napoli are run well. OM... remains to be seen. we're typically a disaster Laughing

With the passion and the fanbase, I don't think having more ambition is irrational. Both Napoli and OM could easily take the next step with an owner that has the right vision. Lyon, however, is limited imo.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:17 pm

But this are narratives forced to a situation, where exactly was the satisfaction with the current stature in ADL's tenure? Like I said these are descriptions of Lotito. They fit Lazio and Roma.

Pick a season, look two behind it, and compare what you see. Use actual examples, not broad narrative, and see where the discussion goes.

it's been 15 years of constant, and fast, growth. ADL has run his club the same way that AA is running Juve. The difference is that the baseline is hugely different for Juve and Napoli.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BusterLfc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:28 pm

There's no ambition by Napoli? They almost won the Serie A last year against Juve who's been dominating the league for years.

Napoli spent most of last season on 1st place, they had 93 points, the highest ever for a 2nd placed team , they were just unfortunate to compete with that Juve team
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Doc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:15 pm

I actually went and look up this sacked 1 coach in ten years because that just sounded way too good to be true. Turns out, it sorta is not correct but it is still worthy of praise imo. ADL terminated both Reja and Donadoni tenures but the former did really good work for them before, the results just wasn't happening. Apparently Donadoni was a dud. That was in 2009, within the 10 year gap.

Still, 2 coaches outright terminated in 10 years is a pretty solid achievement. Still does not excuse their performance yesterday. Or their "performance" last year while I'm at it.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:19 pm

@Doc wrote:I actually went and look up this sacked 1 coach in ten years because that just sounded way too good to be true. Turns out, it sorta is not correct but it is still worthy of praise imo. ADL terminated both Reja and Donadoni tenures but the former did really good work for them before, the results just wasn't happening. Apparently Donadoni was a dud. That was in 2009, within the 10 year gap.

Still, 2 coaches outright terminated in 10 years is a pretty solid achievement. Still does not excuse their performance yesterday. Or their "performance" last year while I'm at it.

Reja was before, and after 4 years, good enough. I wrote that from memory, not checking, figured Donadoni was 10 seasons ago, after the euros with Italy.

So the last 10 seasons are:

1 Ancelotti (current)
3 Sarri (sacked, relationship broke down)
2 Benitez (left amicably)
4 Mazzarri (left amicably)

10 seasons, close enough. Then the half(?) season from Donadoni.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Doc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:35 pm

Basically, ADL clearly gives his managers wiggle room unless they are legit duds (like Donadoni). Also, more reading up on ADL's tenure, I'm not seeing the characteristics Arq is mentioning, definitely not all of it. I know about his antics but the club has been well run. Really well run if I'm being honest.

I think the "problem" is what folks would want from Napoli (and Roma) always conflicts with what those two clubs can actually do. In Napoli's case, ADL (from my readings) clearly has ambition but even ambition needs to be grounded and Napoli is still competing with more attractive clubs who'll pay better and win more. The fact they have a competitive enough squad despite real limitations to squad building speaks volumes as to where they have reached under his stewardship.

However, that performance yesterday was dog shit and they deserve all the criticism in the world...for that match.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:50 pm

Indeed. In the end yesterday Ancelotti got it wrong in the first half and Liverpool were better. ADL wasn't playing that game.

Roma is a clear example of these things. They were in drastically better standing after calciopoli than Napoli or Juve. Then they basically stagnated and hovered around the same level, a few ups and a few downs. Except for Totti and DDR of course, all Roma players are truly for sale and easily available, to rivals as well. Very high turnover of players.

Twice as many coaches in roughly the same time frame: EDF, Spalletti, Garcia, Enrique, Montella, Zeman, Rainieri, Andreazzoli (?).

A few presidents too.

Now we assume that Napoli must perform better than Roma and if the opposite happens, Roma is "overachieving". That is the contrast in direction.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:14 pm

Unambitious isn't really the right term tbh.

But undoubtedly every Italian team apart from Juventus are incredibly negative and have a losers mentality.

Napoli basically spent the entire game sitting back and doing fuck all hoping to scrape a 0-0. It's not 1985 anymore, these teams need to stop playing not to lose or they'll never succeed.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by urbaNRoots on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:15 pm

Reminder that Liverpool have spent 200m+ on players in recent years while Mbappe/Neymar alone cost more than Napoli's entire squad. Napoli did alright against what they were facing.

Inter should be ridiculed more for bottling it against Tottenham of all teams rofl
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:24 pm

Money is irrelevant, money doesn't make you sit back and not even try to attack for most of the game and go in with the mentality of drawing instead of winning.

I really wish people would stop leaning on the money excuse, it's so tired and lazy. If it was the be all and end all PL teams wouldn't suck historically and PSG would have multiple CLs by now.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by urbaNRoots on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:30 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Money is irrelevant, money doesn't make you sit back and not even try to attack for most of the game and go in with the mentality of drawing instead of winning.

I really wish people would stop leaning on the money excuse, it's so tired and lazy. If it was the be all and end all PL teams wouldn't suck historically and PSG would have multiple CLs by now.


Money rules football just like it rules almost everything in life.

Don't be deluded man.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BusterLfc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm

You really think Napoli could come to Anfield in a big CL game and play an open game? Look what happened last time City and Roma tried to do that. Liverpool at Anfield thrives against teams that come to play football, it's the parked buses they stuggle against
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BusterLfc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:37 pm

Napoli was unlucky to be in such a group in the first place, look at Porto's group Laughing , I remember I think around 2013 when Napoli was also in a group with Arsenal, Dortmund, Marseille. Arsenal, BVB & Napoli all finished on 12 points and Napoli got knocked out so this is not their first time Laughing
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by sportsczy on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Atleti is a great example of how to build a team without completely breaking a bank AND competing at the highest level. Dortmund used to be. Etc.

Super elite teams can fix their problems very quickly and remain elite forever basically.

The ones right below need almost everything to go right in order to compete at an elite level. BUT, unless you have the ambition to compete at the elite level, you don't even give yourself a chance for everything to go right. Hope this makes sense lol.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Helmer on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:39 pm

Mentioning the money issue is so stupid and laughable. I dont know why people keep going back to it. It is not as if Liverpool are spending the unlimited oil money or money coming from a business running on Moon or Mars. All what matters is how you spend the money you earn (some famous investors have said this time and again). That is what makes us look ruícher than we are. It is just a well run sustainable business model. People dont get it.

Once it is becomes sustainable, then Football comes into the picture. A club in huge debt or running things illegally or going into administration doesnt earn you trophies. Liverpool are always late in terms of spending money compared to rivals in EPL. And that is the reason we havent won anything. We ride our luck with signings like Robertson from Hull, Gomez a youth signing, Trent coming from the academy, Milner - free signing from ManCity.

Napoli played brilliantly both against PSG and Liverpool. They were favourites to go through even before MD 5. But on the other hand, they did so many mistakes e.g. conceding late goal against RedStar. So money was really not an issue if they wanted to get out of the group. It was just football, mentality and tactics.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BusterLfc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:46 pm

Also Anfield pitch dimensions are small so it's easier for Liverpool's athletic midfielders to press the shit out of teams that try to attack so it's much easier for the attackers to use the space. San Paolo has one of the widest and longest pitches in Europe iirc, so no wonder lfc struggled there while Napoli is obviously used to that pitch. Home stadiums and pitches are big advantages in football and people forget that
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by urbaNRoots on Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:48 pm

@Helmer wrote:Mentioning the money issue is so stupid and laughable. I dont know why people keep going back to it. It is not as if Liverpool are spending the unlimited oil money or money coming from a business running on Moon or Mars. All what matters is how you spend the money you earn (some famous investors have said this time and again). That is what makes us look ruícher than we are. It is just a well run sustainable business model. People dont get it.

Once it is becomes sustainable, then Football comes into the picture. A club in huge debt or running things illegally or going into administration doesnt earn you trophies. Liverpool are always late in terms of spending money compared to rivals in EPL. And that is the reason we havent won anything. We ride our luck with signings like Robertson from Hull, Gomez a youth signing, Trent coming from the academy, Milner - free signing from ManCity.

Napoli played brilliantly both against PSG and Liverpool. They were favourites to go through even before MD 5. But on the other hand, they did so many mistakes e.g. conceding late goal against RedStar. So money was really not an issue if they wanted to get out of the group. It was just football, mentality and tactics.


Liverpool broke the record for both CB and GK in the last year, gtfo with your "lucky" bs. Liverpool did well to get in this position but then so did Napoli. When De Laurentis took over Napoli were in Serie C, now they are in the CL regularly competing against giants such as Liverpool, Juventus and PSG so accusing him of lacking ambition is what's actually laughable.

Napoli played really well despite the odds, the fact that they couldn't overcome squads 200m more expensive doesn't make them a failure, the same is for their league campaign.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BusterLfc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:06 pm

@sportsczy wrote:Atleti is a great example of how to build a team without completely breaking a bank AND competing at the highest level.  Dortmund used to be.  Etc.

Super elite teams can fix their problems very quickly and remain elite forever basically.

The ones right below need almost everything to go right in order to compete at an elite level.  BUT, unless you have the ambition to compete at the elite level, you don't even give yourself a chance for everything to go right.  Hope this makes sense lol.

Dortmund are doing that again, they are 1st in the bundes & CL.

Atletico are still spending a lot on transfers and built a new stadium as well. Griezmann is on like 20m a year so that says all, they got the money and they are using it.

Napoli can certainly reach that next level, they got a lot of talents and proven players and the progress they made from Serie C to here is unbeliveable. They should definitely build a new stadium first though like Juve did, because San Paolo is in such a bad state its gonna fall apart lmao
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Helmer on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:12 pm

@urbaNRoots wrote:
@Helmer wrote:Mentioning the money issue is so stupid and laughable. I dont know why people keep going back to it. It is not as if Liverpool are spending the unlimited oil money or money coming from a business running on Moon or Mars. All what matters is how you spend the money you earn (some famous investors have said this time and again). That is what makes us look ruícher than we are. It is just a well run sustainable business model. People dont get it.

Once it is becomes sustainable, then Football comes into the picture. A club in huge debt or running things illegally or going into administration doesnt earn you trophies. Liverpool are always late in terms of spending money compared to rivals in EPL. And that is the reason we havent won anything. We ride our luck with signings like Robertson from Hull, Gomez a youth signing, Trent coming from the academy, Milner - free signing from ManCity.

Napoli played brilliantly both against PSG and Liverpool. They were favourites to go through even before MD 5. But on the other hand, they did so many mistakes e.g. conceding late goal against RedStar. So money was really not an issue if they wanted to get out of the group. It was just football, mentality and tactics.  


Liverpool broke the record for both CB and GK in the last year, gtfo with your "lucky" bs. Liverpool did well to get in this position but then so did Napoli. When De Laurentis took over Napoli were in Serie C, now they are in the CL regularly competing against giants such as Liverpool, Juventus and PSG so accusing him of lacking ambition is what's actually laughable.

Napoli played really well despite the odds, the fact that they couldn't overcome squads 200m more expensive doesn't make them a failure, the same is for their league campaign.

ok you dont know anything about how Liverpools financial model is managed then Laughing I can post here comments from Liverpools owners and various other people at the club. Liverpool earned hundreds of millions through sales, breaking a functioning team again and again-reconstructing- remodifying the style of the football bit by bit. Breaking the record for CB and GK does sound like something big from the outside but from the inside it is just a numbers game. We were smart enough to realise our limitations and not spend astronomical amounts on new stadium or complete modification. So there are lots of such examples which prove my point that every decision is taken to make the club sustainable and then think about football.

And I nowhere made fun of Napoli at all. In fact I am praising them again and again, did it even in my last post, if you just read it again. I am just saying they went out of the group because of mistakes on football pitch, either in terms of tactics or mistakes during the game. I just replied to your post because you brought money in the picture which is completely irrelevant if you wish to objectively evaluate why Napoli went out.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:16 pm

It's hilarious for Liverpool fans to act like a poor team.
@Helmer wrote:Mentioning the money issue is so stupid and laughable. I dont know why people keep going back to it. It is not as if Liverpool are spending the unlimited oil money or money coming from a business running on Moon or Mars. All what matters is how you spend the money you earn (some famous investors have said this time and again). That is what makes us look ruícher than we are. It is just a well run sustainable business model. People dont get it.

What is this comment. It's easy to act like money doesn't matter when one is rich. This is how out of touch with reality the PL is. Napoli is at most top 4 in Serie A for wages. Budgets are drastically different between them and Liverpool. Easy to say money doesn't matter and then buy the most expensive GK and CB ever.

It's the same for us, we have bench players (cheaper than Liverpool's bench players of course) that would be around Napoli's all time record transfers. These things obviously matter. A well run rich club has all the advantages over a well run club with less resources. There is a point were returns diminish, Napoli are not at that point.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Helmer on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:25 pm

I do not think, I said anywhere that Liverpool are financially a poor team. I just said it is sustainable business model, that's it.  
I am not sure if money really mattered that much if we want to objectively evaluate why Napoli went out. In my opinion, from MD5 onwards they had more chances of going through compared to PSG or Liverpool. That is such an amazing achievement to come so far. I think they have to build on that for coming seasons or going deep in EL this season.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Doc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:27 pm

Money is always a factor. Napoli grew to what they are now due to a very sound business model that needed money. Liverpool didn't break the record for cb and gk by paying with hugs and kisses, it was through money. It cannot be ignored nor dismissed.

That being said, Napoli had the squad to do a lot more than that nonsensical showing yesterday so while the factor of money is very prevelant, it isn't the reason Napoli played like shit. That's on the players and their manager as they have shown that they are able to compete with psg and pool.

It's not that they lost, it's the manner in which they did it despite having the tools to do more. Much more.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by rincon on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:30 pm

It's not the reason why they lost a game as player play, not accountants. But saying that money is irrelevant in football, and a laughable issue, is absurd.
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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:30 pm

Don't understand why Napoli is being so heavily criticized here. They did as well as could be hoped in this group. Should they have lost points against Red Star? Of course not, but it's not like losing to Liverpool on GD should be a blemish to their name.

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Re: Champions League 2018/19 | Group C

Post by Doc on Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:33 pm

Because they played below their level and it was infuriating. I think it's justifiable to criticize them for that match. For their overall performance in this hard ass group, yeah, they did well. But that match was souring to say the least. Mind u, Liverpool could and should have battered them off the park too.

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