Is the US governmental system failing?

I'm starting to toy with the idea. Just like communism was too extreme... this form of capitalism is too extreme. After reading the relief bill that was signed yesterday, it became blatantly obvious that the government does not give a rat's ass about the people. It's about as heartless as it gets.

of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

Communism can't work. the funniest thing about it is its idea is to create a classless state but the moment you put a government in place an elite emerges which is a class in itself which circles back and defies point 1.

Not easy to find the balance... and a perfect economic system doesn't exist.

Social democracy is not the middle ground between socialism and capitalism, its not the golden mean. It may or may not be the way to go, but we already know its far from perfect even if better than the US' state of affairs.

El Gunner wrote:of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

r u serious. communism? get the fuck out of here. that ends your credibility.

Communists have murdered far more people than Nazis yet, for some reason, its fine to fetishize them. Its an inhumane and delusional view that should be censored

Marx was kinda right about capitalism but whatever he tried to propose as solution is 10x worse.

It also doesnt work because humans are inherently garbage, selfish, competitive, combative. Sorry. Anything can thrive under "the right conditions". But this is abstract.

The american government is heartless, they do artificial darwinism since many decades. What's the point of economics if the population is too sick to maintain it ? These guys care only about China not closing the gap

Anyways, today in absurd news, the USA have intentions of militarizing the border with Canada. Fair enough, fuckers, we'll gladly stay home

sportsczy wrote:

El Gunner wrote:of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

r u serious. communism? get the fuck out of here. that ends your credibility.

yea sure, stay clueless because you didn't read my post in its entirety

Not capitalism or communism is the problem but the way the voting system and presidential elections work. The way the USA is set up one needs HUGE financial backing for a presidential campaign. To get it the candidates become corporate b****es. From that point on they don't fullfil the regulatory part of the gouvernment anymore which is very important in capitalism. Someone has to set and adjust the rules. Usually, both sides profit call it corruption or whatever but in the case of the USA, the legislative ends up with much shorter leverage in the "deal" than the corporate America & the lobbies.
The second problem is, there are just democrats and republicans. Both parties have to accomodate huge amount of interest groups which are sometimes too contradicting, too left or too right. In a representative democracy like Germany or Swiss, there is a 5% hurdle for a party to enter but afterwards they represent their interest group and have leverage depending on the amount of the voters, not just by being left or right.

Myesyats wrote:
It also doesnt work because humans are inherently garbage, selfish, competitive, combative. Sorry.

are we really though, or is the system we live in that promotes these behaviours?

Myesyats wrote:Anything can thrive under "the right conditions". But this is abstract.

sure, i don't have all the answers and insight to detail out a government system to you as i'm only one human being, but i stand by what i said initially

Fuck communism and capitalism. Master Liu Bei found the answer centuries ago: the land shall be ruled through benevolence and common sense.

@babs... it wasn't like this at all in the US just a short 20 years ago.  Everyone said things in campaigns; but once the campaigning was over, they worked together.

That ended when Bush Jr "won" the presidency by stealing Florida (his brother was the governor) over Gore.  You suddenly had extreme conservatives take over the presidency.  The sad part is that it caused the left to start going extreme too. The two sides stopped working together for the good of the country and it all was about the good of their political parties.

The funny part is that Bush Jr was moderate in today's environment.  Very moderate.

Moderates always won until the Iraq war.  Frankly, the 9/11 terrorist attack created a lot of extreme nationalism and Iraq caused a break of trust between the people and the government.

The Tea Party began as a result... and that's when things started going south.  The cancel culture on the left is also insane.

It's not just the US either... the whole world has gone extreme.

sportsczy wrote:I'm starting to toy with the idea. Just like communism was too extreme... this form of capitalism is too extreme. After reading the relief bill that was signed yesterday, it became blatantly obvious that the government does not give a rat's ass about the people. It's about as heartless as it gets.

Can you tell us about the relief bill and what you analyze from it?

I don't know any details other than "2 trillion $"

El Gunner wrote:of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

dead

All of world history proves this wrong. Anything else is not worth considering either because we don't live in a hypothetical, ideal world. The world is flawed and those flaws demolish communism as a workable governmental system.

In any case, this thread is too broad. We need a tighter definition of "failing" to determine whether the US government is failing.

Because as of right now, the US government is the head of the most powerful military and economy of the world. As far as nation-states are concerned, those are two of the biggest indicators of success.

Now, when you start to zero in on the individual level (which I think you are doing), then it becomes a much different question, and a much different answer

CBarca wrote:

El Gunner wrote:of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

dead

All of world history proves this wrong. Anything else is not worth considering either because we don't live in a hypothetical, ideal world. The world is flawed and those flaws demolish communism as a workable governmental system.

why are you living in the past?
but sure CB, go ahead continuing to live your fake, soulless life while millions made of the same organic matter as you commit suicide because they don't see the point and live in starvation and war-torn countries because of capitalist greed.

Just know that your mentality and practices contribute to upholding all of that.

rincon wrote:

sportsczy wrote:I'm starting to toy with the idea.  Just like communism was too extreme... this form of capitalism is too extreme.  After reading the relief bill that was signed yesterday, it became blatantly obvious that the government does not give a rat's ass about the people.  It's about as heartless as it gets.

Can you tell us about the relief bill and what you analyze from it?

I don't know any details other than "2 trillion $"

Here's a basic read on it:
https://www.npr.org/2020/03/26/821457551/whats-inside-the-senate-s-2-trillion-coronavirus-aid-package

Now I'll tell you some things wrong with it:

-  The relief for states is not based on economic impact... but literally divided between states.  So on a per capita basis, CA and NY get very little while smaller states make a HUGE profit.  This works well for Trump and the Republicans because it gets more money to their "red" states while, for example, NYC is getting 4 billion of aid despite the economic loss already standing at 15 billion.

-  What is a one-time 1200 dollar check going to do for anyone?  It should be a standing monthly payment, with the amount adjusted based on where you live, until the pandemic is over and you can go back to work.

-  The Small Business Administration is... well HORRIBLE.  Nobody uses it because it's super difficult to qualify and the paperwork is crazy.  AND, you have to personally guarantee all of it.  So, in essence, you will need to go personally into heavy debt to save your businesses.  Tell you what...  i would think very hard before doing that.  What they should have done is directly pay workers their wages and pay rents for the businesses...  That would allow property owners and business owners to both not lose their shirts This SBA loan thing is going to be a disaster.

-  Executive compensation...  specifically, bonuses.  Companies that are being bailed out should have the bonuses frozen or at least capped.  Taxpayer money is saving your ass and you shouldn't get to pay yourself millions with it.

Etc.

@cbarca... in an absolute sense, yes we still have the largest economy and military. However, we had a massive lead in 2000. Since then, our economic influence is shrinking (China is about to become number 1 in less than 10 years) while our military is losing its edge as well.

To put it in gambling terms... we were the house. We stopped behaving like the house should... so people will eventually no longer trust us to act as the house. That's when it's all over for us as the dominant economic power. We'll be elite of course... but no longer someone who can dictate terms unilaterally. We're losing the privelege.

I'm not sure I understand the premise of the OP.

Is the criticism on the American political apparatus itself, such as the 3 branches of Government, the 2 chambers of Congress, the structuring of the Executive Branch and the system that makes up the Supreme Court?

I do not believe all of these institutions are broken. I do believe the laws and rules around how they operate are due greed, avarice and corruption. We're talking centuries of this stuff, long before Trump was elected. Politics fuels our government. Ideology fuels our politics. Values fuel our ideologies. If there's something broken, it's far deeper than government, which is merely the top level.

El Gunner wrote:

CBarca wrote:

El Gunner wrote:of course it's a heartless, terrible system lol. The most terrible there is

communism can work under the right circumstances and conditions, if not communism, some other form of 'socialist'-centric government. People have mostly become stuck in old ways of understanding stuff, and on words/labels and what they've come to represent instead of looking forward and being politically innovative.

dead

All of world history proves this wrong. Anything else is not worth considering either because we don't live in a hypothetical, ideal world. The world is flawed and those flaws demolish communism as a workable governmental system.

why are you living in the past?
but sure CB, go ahead continuing to live your fake, soulless life while millions made of the same organic matter as you commit suicide because they don't see the point and live in starvation and war-torn countries because of capitalist greed.

Just know that your mentality and practices contribute to upholding all of that.

If not to learn from history what should we learn from?

I'm struggling to understand your point of view. You actually support communism? Come on EG. Your point about suffering of millions seems so comical. I mean, you want to talk about countries that have killed millions...and that of their own people-- it's attempts at socialism/communism.

McLewis wrote:I'm not sure I understand the premise of the OP.

Is the criticism on the American political apparatus itself, such as the 3 branches of Government, the 2 chambers of Congress, the structuring of the Executive Branch and the system that makes up the Supreme Court?

I do not believe all of these institutions are broken. I do believe the laws and rules around how they operate are due greed, avarice and corruption. We're talking centuries of this stuff, long before Trump was elected. Politics fuels our government. Ideology fuels our politics. Values fuel our ideologies. If there's something broken, it's far deeper than government, which is merely the top level.

2 are extremely politicized and that development is recent.  Pretty sure nobody here is old enough to have experienced the US government in the 90s where there were politics of course...  but not to the detriment of moving the country forward.  The parties would compromise with each other to get things done.  Now it's just a game of sabotage from both sides regardless of the consequences to the country.

Congress and Executive branches are broken.  Judicial branch... pretty much hasn't changed.  

America has lost its compass.  I've become increasingly sad about it.

What caused the shift to extremist?  People's standard of living has decreased in the past 20 years overall for the first time in American history if you account for inflation.  The wealth has only benefited a small segment of society over this period.  

The median income in the US was $61,526 in 1999... and it was $63,179 in 2018.  Yet the GDP went from 9.6 trillion to 20.6 trillion in that time... the Dow went from 10.4k to 26.4k.  The general population did not benefit AT ALL from all that wealth.  Many people became disenfranchised = blame the government and anyone else they could find = Trump (anti-establishment guy).

A government that does not serve the majority of the people = broken system. Can it be salvaged? I'm not sure. It would take compromise, respect for other people's opinions and, well, humanity.

sportsczy wrote:@babs... it wasn't like this at all in the US just a short 20 years ago.  Everyone said things in campaigns; but once the campaigning was over, they worked together.

That ended when Bush Jr "won" the presidency by stealing Florida (his brother was the governor) over Gore.  You suddenly had extreme conservatives take over the presidency.  The sad part is that it caused the left to start going extreme too.  The two sides stopped working together for the good of the country and it all was about the good of their political parties.

The funny part is that Bush Jr was moderate in today's environment.  Very moderate.

Moderates always won until the Iraq war.  Frankly, the 9/11 terrorist attack created a lot of extreme nationalism and Iraq caused a break of trust between the people and the government.

The Tea Party began as a result... and that's when things started going south.  The cancel culture on the left is also insane.

It's not just the US either... the whole world has gone extreme.

Na, I still stand by my points. In times of peace, the society expresses itself as a bunch of interest groups so you see ecologists, clima centrics, far rights and other "minorities" becoming more vocal. This is just the blabla on the outside. The voting leverage an US American has got is skewed because the financial interest group is MUCH more powerful than the rest. They influence heavily both republicans and the democrats. In other words, the voter has got a "choice" which lesser evil to elect. People can't create another party to get away from the system or to change it because:
1. Needs huge financial backing
2. The other two will crush it with the help of the financial groups and the media
Trump was elected because the "footfolk" thought he'd be financially independent enough to go against his own party in the interest of all of the American people.
All said, the legislative isn't functioning as it should, the regulation benefits one interest group only.
What worries me the most, the so called independent media isn't reporting anymore. More often, opinions are enrobed as "reports". They are the 4th power next to the legislative, executive and the judicative. One way to change the system would be through the power of the judicative part. The other versions require a crisis, aren't peaceful.

CBarca wrote:

El Gunner wrote:

CBarca wrote:


dead

All of world history proves this wrong. Anything else is not worth considering either because we don't live in a hypothetical, ideal world. The world is flawed and those flaws demolish communism as a workable governmental system.

why are you living in the past?
but sure CB, go ahead continuing to live your fake, soulless life while millions made of the same organic matter as you commit suicide because they don't see the point and live in starvation and war-torn countries because of capitalist greed.

Just know that your mentality and practices contribute to upholding all of that.

If not to learn from history what should we learn from?

I'm struggling to understand your point of view. You actually support communism? Come on EG. Your point about suffering of millions seems so comical. I mean, you want to talk about countries that have killed millions...and that of their own people-- it's attempts at socialism/communism.

Sure we should, but things aren't set in stone. Just because it hasn't worked properly in a few countries over history doesn't mean it, or some version of it, is doomed for a different future of humanity.

You should look at who has had the power to control your mind and education your entire life, and free your mind my friend. Just because America has instilled certain ideals and views into your life and mind, and that of geopolitical histories too, it doesn't mean that's exactly how everything happened.

I am in favour of the ideals of communism.

I believe it can work if implemented correctly from the root up and if it is done globally.

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:I'm not sure I understand the premise of the OP.

Is the criticism on the American political apparatus itself, such as the 3 branches of Government, the 2 chambers of Congress, the structuring of the Executive Branch and the system that makes up the Supreme Court?

I do not believe all of these institutions are broken. I do believe the laws and rules around how they operate are due greed, avarice and corruption. We're talking centuries of this stuff, long before Trump was elected. Politics fuels our government. Ideology fuels our politics. Values fuel our ideologies. If there's something broken, it's far deeper than government, which is merely the top level.

2 are extremely politicized and that development is recent.  Pretty sure nobody here is old enough to have experienced the US government in the 90s where there were politics of course...  but not to the detriment of moving the country forward.  The parties would compromise with each other to get things done.  Now it's just a game of sabotage from both sides regardless of the consequences to the country.

Congress and Executive branches are broken.  Judicial branch... pretty much hasn't changed.  

America has lost its compass.  I've become increasingly sad about it.

What caused the shift to extremist?  People's standard of living has decreased in the past 20 years overall for the first time in American history if you account for inflation.  The wealth has only benefited a small segment of society over this period.  

The median income in the US was $61,526 in 1999... and it was $63,179 in 2018.  Yet the GDP went from 9.6 trillion to 20.6 trillion in that time... the Dow went from 10.4k to 26.4k.  The general population did not benefit AT ALL from all that wealth.  Many people became disenfranchised = blame the government and anyone else they could find = Trump (anti-establishment guy).

A government that does not serve the majority of the people = broken system. Can it be salvaged? I'm not sure. It would take compromise, respect for other people's opinions and, well, humanity.

See you understand. Now you just need to see further into the setup of power structures vs the ideals of a better rooted society.

Let me first say that I am in agreement with Sports. If you look at the discussions / disagreements over this bailout bill, it was democrats fighting for the common everyday people, the workers if you like and the republicans fighting for business and the rich and as  Sports pointed out very selectively for republicans.

But to me I draw a distinction between socialism and communism. I believe communism is the equivalent of dictatorship and no different that a ‘to the right’ dictatorship such as Hiltler or Franco.

Almost all countries have some socialism which in basic terms is more about every day people and less about the rich. I would suggest the US has less than most countries. While I do think some socialism is good in reducing that divide between rich and common folk, there are two elements I strongly disagree with. First is implementing socialism doesn’t mean government should take over everything, as government run literally means inefficiencies and an open checkbook, at taxpayers expense. The second is introducing new social benefits should only be done when the country and its economy can afford it.

To bring it back to the US, given the little amount of socialism they have, a Sanders or Warren have no chance of getting elected. That’s why Biden is the proper choice at this time. I wouldn’t write him off just yet as Trump’s mouth is doing Biden’s work right now.

But I do agree the major problem with their system is their two party system and the whole nomination and election process.

Let's just put this out there as food for thought:
No Republican is advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave.
All Democrats advertising giving people health care or paid sick leave are already out of the primaries.

At a certain point you get what you vote for.