Re: Jose Mourinho

by ToEy Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:43 pm

The Madrid One wrote:cant believe such a shitty thread gets so many replys, specially from haters.

they are meaningless words written accross the internet that have no value and i for one wont waste my time

Yeah you will not waste your time on this thread and you posted....thanks for the lulz

by JuvenelCuore Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:43 pm

ToEy wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
You know, Inter sucked in CL for a looooooooooooooooong time, very long time. He got his men as cheap as possible Ibra vs. Eto'o+ cash was the deal of century ( ask any Farca fan) , Militto didn't cost a lot as well Lucio was free and the only guy he bought for real was Snejder

Dude...just saying....in Inter the deals are done/determined/planned by Moratti...thank Moratti for the ibra etoo deal...not mourinho...and btw "farca farca" are you a kid?

Quoted for truth. I am laughing right now that a kid who calls Barca "Farca" and has no knowledge of the basic structure of a club and the difference between a director and a manager accuses me of having no knowledge and being a child.

Only on the internet.

by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:48 pm

sportsczy wrote:
Well.. let me tell you that Phil Jackson set records that will never be broken as a coach. Ever. But he only won the best coach award once in his career and was always criticized for only winning with Michael Jordan/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe or Kobe/Gasol/Odom. he only got his due in the last 3-4 years.

I think the whole "he only won because he had the players" argument is pretty stupid. It takes great talent to win? No shit! But doe great talent always win? Not consistently. That's the key word: CONSISTENCY.

If Mou had only achieved his success with one team and one set of core players, i would've deemed the "genius" tag overstated perhaps. But he's doing it every year with 4 different teams and 4 different set of players in 4 different leagues. To me, that is undeniable proof of brilliance. And it's not like there was a transition year anywhere... immediate success in completely different circumstances with consistency.

So while his personality is not the best, Mou has to be considered a genius just based on his unique and, likely, never to be matched again CV.

That is a good post Sportczy.

What about someone like SAF who won with multiple generations? What about Wenger who elevated Arsenal to elite levels? Wouldn't you agree that Wengers recent results record is due to lack of ambition by the board?

Mourinho has taken up multiple projects in his career and each of those projects had very specific goals, so he had the necessary support in all senses.

He is a brilliant manager, no doubt, but a genius? To each his own i guess.

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:36 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Don't argue with people that downplay Lev Yashin's greatness :lol!: I can't really respect their opinions after that frankly.

Ever heard the expression "no use crying over spilled milk ?"

Apply it. It was said in another thread, and it is my opinion. "I think, therefore I am."

Get over it. Or get a room.
When Mou leaves a club, it means he has got no influence over its future anymore Now, when a certain Rafa or Avram Grant come and mismanage everything, how is Mourinho responsible for their lapses?

You know, Inter sucked in CL for a looooooooooooooooong time, very long time. He got his men as cheap as possible Ibra vs. Eto'o+ cash was the deal of century ( ask any Farca fan) , Militto didn't cost a lot as well Lucio was free and the only guy he bought for real was Snejder
In Chelsea, he bought Essien, Drogba and changed Lampard to out and out goal scorer. Now, they were their backbone for years No denying it...

I won't mention Porto, maybe you weren't born by that time or to small ( You comments suggest that).

Present time, ever looked at the average age of Real Madrid players?
How is it what he is doing different from Wenger except he keeps his people at the club? Look at the starters: Ozil, Carvalho, Khedira ( He bought Sahin), Varane etc.
I know what you guys will say next, he works with finished products and doesn't develop anyone... Did you see Benzema last year? He was a fat overweight lazy bum. Ever saw Marcelo defending prior to Mourinho ( not only didn't he defend, he didn't know how)? Ever saw CR7 track back like in the last two clasicos?
Name me a team that managed 47% possession against full strength Farca team?

1) He won a CL with Inter. Congrats. When did I say he never won anything ?

2) The transfer deals were none of his doing. They happened during his reign, so what ? They are automatically his ?

3) I acknowledged Porto, I said it was what made his career. Besides that, nothing was impressive. Care to read ?

4) Average age of RM players ? What does that have to do with anything ? The fact a 31-year old Ricardo Cavalho followed him to Madrid ? Nice.

5) Benzema ? Did him and Mourinho not get into a scuffle ? Marcelo ? He improved. That is automatically his doing ? Prove that. Ronaldo is still the same cancer he was a year ago, even RM fans think it.

6) Name me a team that spent as much as Madrid did to get close to that possession count.

1. You said, he leaves shabby squads back and doesn't care long term Very Happy

He made their squad complete in one season ( pretty cheap) and it's still stronger than Juve's Very Happy

2.Beside Canales and Pedro Leon, every other transfer was sanctioned by Mourinho Very Happy

3. Just drop the topic, don't talk about something you don't have a clue about Very Happy

You may start watching videos about pele Very Happy

4. It means he is building a young team for the future. The current squad is complete and will be very strong for the next 4-6 years. The backbones are Casillas, Ramos, Ozil, Marcelo, Benz, Varane, Di Maria etc. It's very hard to train and discipline young players in tactical games. If you still don't get I'm countering your argument about immediate success, no he builds a squad long term Very Happy

5.You can't turn a lazy bum into a worker over night. Mou did it the harsh way, it worked, so I won't look back Very Happy

marcelo is vastly improved in defending Very Happy

Ronaldo may be a cancer but he tracks back on his wing and is very disciplined. His selfishness is another story though, Mou is nto responsible for it Very Happy

6. Villareal play on par with Farca, Valencia give them worlds of trouble Very Happy

Contrary to that, man City would be destroyed by Farca Very Happy

Did you get the wrong point in your logic? Very Happy

Buy a book written by Dale Carnegie Very Happy

Just a friendly advice Very Happy

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:38 pm

ToEy wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
You know, Inter sucked in CL for a looooooooooooooooong time, very long time. He got his men as cheap as possible Ibra vs. Eto'o+ cash was the deal of century ( ask any Farca fan) , Militto didn't cost a lot as well Lucio was free and the only guy he bought for real was Snejder

Dude...just saying....in Inter the deals are done/determined/planned by Moratti...thank Moratti for the ibra etoo deal...not mourinho...and btw "farca farca" are you a kid?

Mou always chooses the targets. The moment he is not allowed to (Chelsea) he falls out with the management. It doesn't mean he wants the most expensive players but players who fit his system Very Happy

Inter sucked so much in CL pre Mou it wasn't even funny Very Happy

Moratti got everything right suddenly? :lol!:
You don't need to talk up post Mou Inter's worth. Their squad is very strong but without Mou... Very Happy

by Guest Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:40 pm

I may reserve the term genius for after his Madrid project. He's going at it very differently. He's bringing kids that are all 23 years or less and spending a lot of enegy and trust on the castilla youth system... If he's able to build a champion with young players and set the next 5-10 years up for Madrid, the he's an undeniable genius.

by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:41 pm

babun1024 wrote:
@kinrar

I got your point. You want to know what's the system behind Mou's attacking tactics There's none except for every attacker has to watch out for the space he's occupying to recover on time for defending when needed. It means, as long as the attackers watch out for their defensive duties, they're free to play the way they like. Another aspect is his zonal attacking game. His attackers make runs into free space but under no given pattern. Top fitness is required of course. All the team is fit, Fergie or Wenger don't do it any different( very fit players). He's got a very big emphasis on holdup play in final 3rd to create holes in opponents defence. Benzema, CR7 and Ozil were trained for it, you could see the results recently.
Now, it has benefits and problems. The problems: each match the attackers have to improvise anew to get the job done. The positive: the attack is virtually unpredictable. The system works wonders with players like Ozil and Benzema because they're creative to the bone. Di Maria's final pass or other magic moments aren't too shabby either.
Overall, to each their own, but I enjoy Real Madrid games a lot more than those from Farca because each game is very different and I get to see all kind of goals

Nice interpretation Babun. I dont quite understand that hold-up play part.

In general, i get it. I have seen many other top managers that have a defined attack plan and are still able to achieve defensive stability. Chaos is what has always occurred to me when i see a Mou team attacking (since Chelsea days). Dont get me wrong, i think this is a brilliant tactic, which is covering your base as you attack. However when others have managed to evolve defined attacking tactics, does it warrant Mourinho being called a genius? As i mentioned above, to each his own i suppose!

by JuvenelCuore Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:46 pm

LOL @ you calling me a child with 15 smiley-faces. Grow up kid. Get yourself "Football for Dummies." The fact you accredit Mourinho for players like Casillas and Ramos and say he is building a future is laughable.

The fact you say they are disciplined when all you need to do is pull up El Clasico highlights to disprove it speaks for itself.

Enjoy being second to "Farca."

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:51 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:LOL @ you calling me a child with 15 smiley-faces. Grow up kid. Get yourself "Football for Dummies." The fact you accredit Mourinho for players like Casillas and Ramos and say he is building a future is laughable.

The fact you say they are disciplined when all you need to do is pull up El Clasico highlights to disprove it speaks for itself.

Enjoy being second to "Farca."

by harhar11 Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:58 pm

omarish wrote:Let's not forget that as soon as Mou leaves the team he is coaching they all have been underperforming compared to when he was coaching them. (Chelsea and Inter). Porto is the only one you can't compare becouse all their players were sold.

I haven't read the entire thread but didn't chelsea reach the champions league final the year after he got sacked? Suspect

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:59 pm

kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
@kinrar

I got your point. You want to know what's the system behind Mou's attacking tactics There's none except for every attacker has to watch out for the space he's occupying to recover on time for defending when needed. It means, as long as the attackers watch out for their defensive duties, they're free to play the way they like. Another aspect is his zonal attacking game. His attackers make runs into free space but under no given pattern. Top fitness is required of course. All the team is fit, Fergie or Wenger don't do it any different( very fit players). He's got a very big emphasis on holdup play in final 3rd to create holes in opponents defence. Benzema, CR7 and Ozil were trained for it, you could see the results recently.
Now, it has benefits and problems. The problems: each match the attackers have to improvise anew to get the job done. The positive: the attack is virtually unpredictable. The system works wonders with players like Ozil and Benzema because they're creative to the bone. Di Maria's final pass or other magic moments aren't too shabby either.
Overall, to each their own, but I enjoy Real Madrid games a lot more than those from Farca because each game is very different and I get to see all kind of goals

Nice interpretation Babun. I dont quite understand that hold-up play part.

In general, i get it. I have seen many other top managers that have a defined attack plan and are still able to achieve defensive stability. Chaos is what has always occurred to me when i see a Mou team attacking (since Chelsea days). Dont get me wrong, i think this is a brilliant tactic, which is covering your base as you attack. However when others have managed to evolve defined attacking tactics, does it warrant Mourinho being called a genius? As i mentioned above, to each his own i suppose!

Chaos is a form of attack, deal with it Very Happy

People like Ozil and Benz make it looks easy, flame me all you want but Xavi would struggle in RM a lot. In contrast, his teams defend deep to compensate for that. The result, the distance between attack and defence is huge = less midfield presence. His tactics are total opposite to Farca's ( flood the midfield, look for through balls) Very Happy

I like his concept of defending in final 3rd only Very Happy

You see the other team 'dominate' with a lot of 'missed' chances from difficult angles+ a lot of end to end stuff. Both teams are allowed to play in contrast to possession football= more entertainment Very Happy

By hold up play I mean the ability to shield and keep the ball on their own in opponents final third under pressure. It forces the opposition to defend deeper which in return eases the job of midfielders. If you bothered to watch RM you'd notice that our attackers rarely help each other out, they keep their distance to stretch their defence as far as possible but in return have to go on many one on ones or very quick counter situations Very Happy

by JuvenelCuore Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:05 pm

Babun, why is it that Mou is not responsible for Ronaldo's selfishness but is responsible for Marcelo's disciplined nature ?

Oh, picking and choosing I see. :coffee:

Educate yourself on the structure of a debate, and then afterward football, and then reply. Preferably without immature troll faces and emoticons.

Thank you.

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:05 pm

@kinrar

The only time Mou's system has a really hard time in scoring is when the other team doesn't attack at all Very Happy

We leave space in midfield for opponents to attack= space for counters. The problem, if they have no intention to attack... then we need individual magic. It may fail from time to time Very Happy

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:07 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:Babun, why is it that Mou is not responsible for Ronaldo's selfishness but is responsible for Marcelo's disciplined nature ?

Oh, picking and choosing I see.

Educate yourself on the structure of a debate, and then afterward football, and then reply. Preferably without immature troll faces and emoticons.

Thank you.

Jose Mourinho - Page 3 Trollers+will+troll+lol+u+mad_ddf6b0_1489059

by guest7 Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:08 pm

harhar11 wrote:
omarish wrote:Let's not forget that as soon as Mou leaves the team he is coaching they all have been underperforming compared to when he was coaching them. (Chelsea and Inter). Porto is the only one you can't compare becouse all their players were sold.

I haven't read the entire thread but didn't chelsea reach the champions league final the year after he got sacked?

If I remember it right he got sacked immedietly after he took them to the final. Didn't manage the final though.

by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:08 pm

babun1024 wrote:

By hold up play I mean the ability to shield and keep the ball on their own in opponents final third under pressure. It forces the opposition to defend deeper which in return eases the job of midfielders. If you bothered to watch RM you'd notice that our attackers rarely help each other out, they keep their distance to stretch their defence as far as possible but in return have to go on many one on ones or very quick counter situations

Yeah, i have noticed the hold-up play. Top teams do the same in different ways.

One nature of Mourinho's teams that i have noticed is to move the ball vertically as quickly as possible using whatever means. In Chelsea, for example, the ball would reach the final third in such a clumsy manner and then suddenly Drogba is in on towards goal.

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:09 pm

omarish wrote:
harhar11 wrote:
omarish wrote:Let's not forget that as soon as Mou leaves the team he is coaching they all have been underperforming compared to when he was coaching them. (Chelsea and Inter). Porto is the only one you can't compare becouse all their players were sold.

I haven't read the entire thread but didn't chelsea reach the champions league final the year after he got sacked?

If I remember it right he got sacked immedietly after he took them to the final. Didn't manage the final though.

Avram Grant took them to the final. It was Mou's team though, he took the credits Very Happy

Mou was sacked before...

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:11 pm

kiranr wrote:
babun1024 wrote:

By hold up play I mean the ability to shield and keep the ball on their own in opponents final third under pressure. It forces the opposition to defend deeper which in return eases the job of midfielders. If you bothered to watch RM you'd notice that our attackers rarely help each other out, they keep their distance to stretch their defence as far as possible but in return have to go on many one on ones or very quick counter situations

Yeah, i have noticed the hold-up play. Top teams do the same in different ways.

One nature of Mourinho's teams that i have noticed is to move the ball vertically as quickly as possible using whatever means. In Chelsea, for example, the ball would reach the final third in such a clumsy manner and then suddenly Drogba is in on towards goal.

Peter Cech'goal kick-> Drogba was the most epic build up. Cech could really find him with a single long ball Very Happy

by JuvenelCuore Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:13 pm

babun1024 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Babun, why is it that Mou is not responsible for Ronaldo's selfishness but is responsible for Marcelo's disciplined nature ?

Oh, picking and choosing I see.

Educate yourself on the structure of a debate, and then afterward football, and then reply. Preferably without immature troll faces and emoticons.

Thank you.

Not mad at all, once again, a childish post. If anything, you are the troll who starts threads that are purposely controversial; i.e. this one, the Juventus one, the Barca one, and the list goes on. Why ? Not sure. Perhaps an inferior complex disorder, but who I am to say.

But if it makes you feel better, "I mad." Rolling Eyes

by Babun Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:19 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
babun1024 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Babun, why is it that Mou is not responsible for Ronaldo's selfishness but is responsible for Marcelo's disciplined nature ?

Oh, picking and choosing I see.

Educate yourself on the structure of a debate, and then afterward football, and then reply. Preferably without immature troll faces and emoticons.

Thank you.

Not mad at all, once again, a childish post. If anything, you are the troll who starts threads that are purposely controversial; i.e. this one, the Juventus one, the Barca one, and the list goes on. Why ? Not sure. Perhaps an inferior complex disorder, but who I am to say.

But if it makes you feel better, "I mad."

I don't feel better from child abuse Very Happy

My advice was for real, read a book written by Dale Cornegie, I read one as well when I was in your age Very Happy

by kiranr Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:20 pm

babun1024 wrote:

Peter Cech'goal kick-> Drogba was the most epic build up. Cech could really find him with a single long ball

Bah! It used to infuriate me!

by TheUnitedIrishman Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:21 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
omarish wrote:
montecarlotwenty wrote:Let's see how he manages in one of the top leagues without hundreds of millions to spend.

Love to see how good he is at Everton or Villareal.

It's not like he coached and won a Champions League trophy with Porto... :?:

LOL good thing I said /inbeforePortoCL.

That is all Mourinho has to his name. A trophy he won years ago, and only because a Giggs (or Scholes, I forget) goal was judged offside when it was onside.

150 matches unbeaten at home isa remarkable feat as a manager if I don't say so myself! Neutral

by H.A. Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:02 pm

Its illogical to discredit someone of what he did because he had a 'great team', had 'money' and blame him for the state of team after he leaves since he has no connection to them anymore.

If you did those things then you are simply biased. If someone wants to say Mou's a genius then its there opinion. It's also an opinion many people support. It does NOT mean its a fact.

I personally won't talk about Mou's past successes, I'll talk about what he has done in Madrid up until now. Firstly we lacked a real playmaker upfront, yes we had several. There was Kaka who was injured, granero who wasn't the best. It end there. We then got two player, one who Mou apparently chose and one where he supported but didn't personally pick him. Ozil and Canales.

Most thought that Canales would be the next big thing but he wasn't as impressive as Ozil. When canales got the chance to shine he either didn't show up or got injured at the wrong time. That's why he became a failure.

The same case happened with the wingers. We got Di Maria who Mou chose and Pedro Leon who was bought before Mou came. Now Pedro Leon was used at the beginning of the season pretty often, the goal he had against Milan was a defining moment which would have helped him get more playing time. What did he do? He became cocky. He became an example for the whole team to watch. Was it Mou's fault he failed then?

Anyway all of us madridistas were hoping for a decent defense. What really caused our failures in the past was not having a 'proper' team which attacks and defends at the same time. That is what we got. Our defense became so much better compared to before.

There was also less 'Oh we're screwed' moments we used to have. We always appeared to concede a goal first which sucks sometimes.

Our attack as a whole remained great, which many feared would be bad because mou loves defense and hates attack. We also added non-galactico talents that have become/will become World Class.

He also watches our youth team, the castilla closely unlike before. He wants them to go to the second league so they would face better competition and get promoted to the first team instead of getting sold. For us madridistas t was long over due. He may not reach the level we want him to be in terms of castilla but he has done more than many other before him.

He got us a trophy. He got us a cup we didn't get in 20+ years. You may say its a pointless cup but for us madridistas it was, it was also sweet since we beat barcelona to get it.

For that my opinion of him is that he's a great manager, won't call him a genius for us until he can get us the trophies we're waiting for though Very Happy

by Arquitecto Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:39 pm

Still going on isn't it?

The opinions in here (bar the one above me) aren't exactly convincing and are rather paltry.

Heres a challenge.

I'd like to see this debate continue in the Barca section where Deepak, Dani, Alex, Barcakizz etc would tear this topic apart.

I'm not a barca fan so I can't exactly make an invite.

But its a challenge nonetheless.

Either that, or continue worshipping a man who has done fck all for your club and made it seem like a circus.

by Swanhends Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:50 pm

kiranr wrote:I do not want this to be about winning.

All Mourinho supporters have called him a tactical genius at one point or the other.

I am not doubting his managerial skills or motivational skills. He is great at developing a winning team.

But why is he a tactical genius? Or is he just as good as other top managers?

You keep asking why he's considered a tactical genius like its some great mystery....The whole body of work is in front of you if you just look at it......I mean what do you want from us here

Porto vs Man United
Porto vs Deportivo
Back to back titles with Chelsea
Chelsea vs Barca
Inter vs Chelsea (home and away)
Inter vs Barca (home and away)

There's a couple of examples for you

by Magricos Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:53 pm

Yet people say they are tired of seeing topics about Madrid or Barca. Very Happy

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