'The Messiah' - Lionel Messi

You didn't even come up with any counter arguments.Please explain to me how playing with a false 9 can work against a team who defended like Milan yesterday.

"Messi plays his position, he aint moving."

Why is it his position?This is Barcelona FC....not Messi FC.Why should we fail to evolve just to satisfy him?Isn't he good or humble enough to adapt?I don't care how many goals he scores,he can keep on scoring hat tricks against minnows all year but hasn't done it against the best teams since 10 - 11.

"Taking the best goalscorer in history most probably and moving him from a goalscoring position is frankly stupid"

He's best when playing as a number 10,as he does for Argentina.For the last year he has been rather dull and when he plays against the best teams he is average nowadays.

It's not just 1 game were he has been snuffed out,virtually every time we play Madrid he is invisible.Mourinho knows how to stop the false 9 and isn't the only one.

We are nowhere near as dominant as we used to be,and one reason is that teams have the false 9 figured out.If they play deep and pack the middle,we don't have anyone in the box,thus we will be a blunt attacking force.Simple logic really.

"Do you know what Falcao would of done yesturday?"

Yes.He would have freed up space for Messi and provided a focal point in the box when Milan played deep for us to cross to and for us to use as a pivot,pass the ball to Falcao and his strength can allow him to hold the ball up and lay it off to Messi or someone,so Messi could recieve the ball facing goal for a change(remember that?It's been a long time hasn't it?)also Falcao would be a threat in behind their defense when they pushed up the pitch.Yesterday we had no one on their last man.Last but not least Falcao is one more player on the team who can actually put the ball in the net!!!People are forgetting that's the main objective of the game and when we only have one player who can do it obviously be easy to stop.

Easy...if we had real forwards making the runs they suppose to make Messi would of passing options, he would of had plays to interchange with and then get into goalscoring positions...

Its Messi's position because he is our best player...only fools dont play their best player in the position they are the best in. Only fools.

Its nothing to do with selfish or anything...its just his position.

You know what happens when you move players out of there position? They shut down or they leave...go ask Rivaldo about Van Gaal.

Falcao a threat behind? Behind? The back line was sitting on the penalty box..there was zero spapce behind...

Pivot pass? We tried that yesturday...the passing lanes were blocked, the gaps too short and we couldnt get anything through. Nothing to do with his physical abilty, there was no space for it.

Nobody is forgetting you need to put the ball in the net..thats why we needed actual forwards making correct movements.

But to go from that to, False 9 cant work is a leap, and a silly one at that.

All false 9 is a position for a specific player...Messi is one of the few who cant do two roles in one...come deep and go behind...unlucky for him, there was no space in behind..what he needed was players around him moving the back line around to create spaces..that never happened.

"only fools dont play their best player in the position they are the best in."

Haven't you watched him for Argentina in the last year? Because he plays better for them than he does for us now.He plays as a number 10,that's were he is best,he's better than some glorified goal scorer that we are turning him into.

I am glad Maradona didn't get wasted as a false 9.Messi will fullfill his potential as a playmaker who can score too.Watching him play for Barca nowadays is so dull.

And just because you say it's Messis position it doesn't make it true,let him play behind a striker and watch how much better he will be.He won't score as much but he will have much more freedom to create and show his GENIUS.Remember some of the passes he used to pull off? Well if he played as a number 10 for us you would see a lot more of that magic.

And like I said before playing Messi as a false 9 with two inside forwards used to work but it wouldn't have worked if we played this Milan team or Inter in 2010.I have already explained why it won't work in my last post.

Pivot pass? We tried that yesturday...the passing lanes were blocked, the gaps too short and we couldnt get anything through. Nothing to do with his physical abilty, there was no space for it.

We started doing lofted balls towards the end of the game to Sanchez and Pique and it worked to some extent.It takes Milans midfield out the game.If we had Falcao or someone this would be a good tactic to bypass Milans midfield.

Messi's role for Argentina is the same, what changes is the players around him, therefore he interprets it differently and takes on different things.

Lets not look at Argentina, it doesnt apply here.

Your knee jerk is too much, your going on like he is failing in his false 9 position...we dont play with a 10..if we do, then that means one less midfielder..why would we want that? and who would that be?


And no, you have not explained why at all it wouldnt work with 2 real forwards. Not at all.

Lol Worms the difference between Messi in Argentina and from Barcelona is he doesn't feed the ball to a worthless goal scorer *sanchez* and that in Argentina he actually has someone who makes runs and makes himself available (someone who isn't Pedro)
That and the fact they use a completely different formation with more attacking options and less midfield.

Since you guys are bringing up the comparison with Argentina, which team would you say is more reliant on Messi?

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Since you guys are bringing up the comparison with Argentina, which team would you say is more reliant on Messi?

Barca IMO, but it's not like everyone make it out to be. It's more like Pep/Tito want to be reliant on Messi. Argentina has one of the best attacking force in the world, with players like Kun, Pipita, Tevez, Lavezzi, Di Maria, and Barca is far from that.

worms wrote:He only ran 7.3 km last night,that is poor.

That isn't poor. That is shocking. He ran less than Fabregas who was subbed off after 60 minutes. He's hampering the movement of the team even worse than Ibrahimovic did at his worst. You can't let the focal point of the team who's playing in the centre of the pitch, thus the heart of the team, trot around for 90 minutes. This goes beyond the freedom a star player is usually granted (aka not tracking back). If he wants to do his best Riquelme impression, the coaching staff should be consequent and just sell Xavi and Iniesta, play a double pivot of Busquets-Mascherano, buy a centreforward, put Messi behind the CF and play 4-2-3-1.

People need to stop with this whole "get a real forward like Falcao or Cavani who can play on the last defender in front of Messi and put the ball in the net from crosses". That's ludicrous. We saw how bad it was with one of the most talented players in the last decade: Ibrahimovic. If it didn't work with him why the hell would it work with anyone else?

Hell, why would it work anyway?

Also, the notion of putting Messi back wide. Stop it. That's a stupid idea.

Because Zlatan isn't a classic number 9,he is best in a deeper position,he isn't a player like Falcao who will run behind the defense.Just watch Zlatan for Milan and PSG,he is as much a playmaker as he is a striker.Thus at Barca him and Messi got in each others way because Messi insisted on playing in the middle too.

Before christmas Zlatan was a success for us,he got voted at half way through the season by our fans as the best player so far in that season.Then Messi started talking...

futbol wrote:

worms wrote:He only ran 7.3 km last night,that is poor.

That isn't poor. That is shocking. He ran less than Fabregas who was subbed off after 60 minutes. He's hampering the movement of the team even worse than Ibrahimovic did at his worst. You can't let the focal point of the team who's playing in the centre of the pitch, thus the heart of the team, trot around for 90 minutes. This goes beyond the freedom a star player is usually granted (aka not tracking back). If he wants to do his best Riquelme impression, the coaching staff should be consequent and just sell Xavi and Iniesta, play a double pivot of Busquets-Mascherano, buy a centreforward, put Messi behind the CF and play 4-2-3-1.

Indeed,this is one of the reasons are pressing game has gone to pieces.How can you press effectively as a team when the opposition Centre Backs have time on the ball because our forward isn't even trying to close them down? What other player in our team doesn't press? Even Fabregas does even though he isn't that good at it.

I don't buy this he's saving himself for other games or whatever anymore,save himself for when? That was the biggest game so far this season and he didn't put a shift in.

I know it seems like I am just taking this defeat out on Messi but I acknowledge their was many other reasons why we got beat the other night.

worms wrote:Because Zlatan isn't a classic number 9,he is best in a deeper position,he isn't a player like Falcao who will run behind the defense.Just watch Zlatan for Milan and PSG,he is as much a playmaker as he is a striker.Thus at Barca him and Messi got in each others way because Messi insisted on playing in the middle too.

Before christmas Zlatan was a success for us,he got voted at half way through the season by our fans as the best player so far in that season.Then Messi started talking...

Even so, it didn't work. It was shown that a player playing as a #9, holding up the ball and laying it off and trying to score from crosses doesn't work. Even technically gifted Zlatan didn't do it well.

Now you put Messi in behind him and the middle is even MORE crowded. Tell me, how is going against a narrow defense like Milan's better when you have even more people in the middle? Do you honestly think the one tall #9 like Falcao is going to score a header vs a Milan penalty box filled with 7, 8 players? No. Do you think he's going provide the movement capable of shifting those defenders out of position? In the middle of a narrow defense he's hardly pulling anyone out of position and if he does there are others to fill that gap. Passing lanes? Holding up the ball? In the middle of a narrow defense? I don't think so. Playing this #9 also would- as Dani rightly pointed out- take away a midfielder. Who would that be and why?

We needed width against Milan, we NEED width for us to play well and we didn't have that (which is a problem identified with playing Iniesta on the left). That's not a problem a #9 will fix, that's NOT a problem of the false #9, and that is NOT a problem with the Barcelona philosophy and the way we've been playing.

We lose once and false 9 needs to go? How about the CL and League win? How about all the times we have beaten big teams with a false 9? All the success we've had with it? Messi breaking records?

Push him back out wide now?

Messi doesn't do jack in big games anymore? No lol that's so wrong. He still is doing some of the best work in our big games as he typically does.

If there was a problem with Messi in a false 9, it wouldn't have reared it's ugly head a couple years after he started playing there.

And judging on an isolated case such as this Milan game is absurd in itself.

"How about the CL and League win? "

Well we won the CL with a false 9,but that was before teams figured out how to play against it.Even against Madrid that year in the semi we created *bleep* all until they went down to 10 men.

"And judging on an isolated case such as this Milan game is absurd in itself."

I am not judging on just this Milan game,recent Classicos against Madrid Messi has been largely snuffed out.Madrid know how to make him ineffective in that position.For example,the league Classico in the Nou Camp last season,Messi was invisible and we hardly created anything.

Not really.

Messi is still consistently one of our most decisive players against Madrid. Just because Madrid have gotten better and know how to play against Barca now and aren't clueless against Barca doesn't mean that's a problem with the false 9. That's just Madrid improving.

Not to mention like I said, Messi still ends up scoring or assisting typically. More than any other player at least. So your comments on the Clasico's are equally as absurd imo

I don't understand.

You're arguing against clear success.

I believe the reason we are failing more as of late is because our wingers are not the same as before, rarely do we play Villa, we play Iniesta no a role he isn't that good at Pedro cannot make runs for some odd reason adds no attacking force
Sanchez misses literally 99% of the time 1 goal this whole la liga
we are 100% dependent on Messi to score and occasionally have a midfield get a lucky rebound / open net goal
Back then we had two great goal scoring wingers now we don't
moving Messi to the wing will only make things worse, no way would Villa all of a sudden start so who would we play in the center?
Cesc as false 9? lmfao or Alexis? no way

I love it when the whole team fails, Messi thread gets the most comments. But when Messi carries Barca on his back, there's hardly anyone in here.

Harmonica wrote:I love it when the whole team fails, Messi thread gets the most comments. But when Messi carries Barca on his back, there's hardly anyone in here.

Becasuse we expect greatness out of him...and Messi rarely carries us on his back, dont be silly.

CBarca wrote:Not really.

Messi is still consistently one of our most decisive players against Madrid. Just because Madrid have gotten better and know how to play against Barca now and aren't clueless against Barca doesn't mean that's a problem with the false 9. That's just Madrid improving.

Not to mention like I said, Messi still ends up scoring or assisting typically. More than any other player at least. So your comments on the Clasico's are equally as absurd imo

I don't understand.

You're arguing against clear success.

How many goals from open play has Messi scored in the last 5 or 6 Classicos?

And your natural assumption is, must be his position?

Surely you see the flaw in such superficial analysis.

Harmonica wrote:I love it when the whole team fails, Messi thread gets the most comments. But when Messi carries Barca on his back, there's hardly anyone in here.

How can you justify Messi only running 7.3 KM in our most important game of the season so far?

Hes lazy and cant be bothered putting in the hard running?

Now imagine that level of laziness, then put him on the right with the responsibility of tracking a leftback.

Your asking us to get ripped open, we already struggle stopping crosses and we defend them even worse.

The Franchise wrote:And your natural assumption is, must be his position?

Surely you see the flaw in such superficial analysis.

My analysis is that Madrid have sussed out how to stop Messi when he plays in the false 9 position,it's not just his lack of goals in open play,but his all round play isn't anywhere near as good as what it used to be against them.

Just my opinion of course.I know there are other problems as well.Like Cesc starting and moving Iniesta to the wings.Our pressing game is nowhere what it used to be(though you could argue this is partly due to Messi's declining work rate),our defending etc

I am also not suggesting that we must never play Messi as a false 9,but I would like to see different gameplans against different teams,he can play as a false 9 against some of the weaker teams but lets try and evolve and try something different against the better teams.

The Franchise wrote:Hes lazy and cant be bothered putting in the hard running?

Now imagine that level of laziness, then put him on the right with the responsibility of tracking a leftback.

Your asking us to get ripped open, we already struggle stopping crosses and we defend them even worse.

I was suggesting play him as a number 10 playing behind a proper striker,at least for some games,in the bigger games.Obviously he would have to improve his work rate,but he must be willing to do that for the benefit of the team,he is physically capable of doing it.He is a top athlete,so there can only be laziness and ego stopping him from doing it.This is why we need a top manager instead of Roura,someone the players respect and even fear a little,like Pep.

Also he could play on the right in some games,it's up to the manager to tell him to put a shift in or sub him for one game.I am sure he would get the message and put in more effort.We don't want another Ronaldinho on our hands do we? Obviously he isn't that lazy and unmotivated yet but it's going that way...

But then we have to take out a midfielder?

Or take out a forward and have the same fullback problem?

I dont like either of them.

I would be willing to take out a defender in a game like Milan where we are desperate, Busquets acting as a part time defender and midfielder like he did vs Madrid for Pep.

And he isnt going to improve his workrate, its the sad truth of the thing. I agree about the coach thing.

Maybe playing the same position while been the undisputed star almost immune to criticism is causing Messi to be complacent?

I say let's give him some new challenges,let him play in different positions so he can show his other attributes....

worms wrote:

Harmonica wrote:I love it when the whole team fails, Messi thread gets the most comments. But when Messi carries Barca on his back, there's hardly anyone in here.

How can you justify Messi only running 7.3 KM in our most important game of the season so far?

It wouldn't have made any difference if he would have ran 20km, if his team mates can't provide quality themselves.