Very little doubt in my mind, Messi has peaked

Dnmac4 wrote:LOL, this thread is so stupid.  Haters will always hate, its just a fact of life.

I had a great cheeseburger the other day . Beef , edam , tomato , bacon , lettuce and mustard sauce , accompanied with french fries and some coke . Best thing ever.

Dnmac4 wrote:Claiming that Messi has peaked the year he scored over 90 goals in a calendar year with like 75 of them coming for his club team alone is supposed to be some sort of revelation?  No shit, no one with a brain expected those numbers again.

And where's your post from back then which says Messi had peaked and no one with a brain should expect those numbers again , Captain Obvious ? Apparently it was so obvious back then , that you never said anything? kk

Dnmac4 wrote:During that season the same haters were claiming he's selfish and ruins Barca's system and hasn't done anything for Argentina. (there was a ton of that going on back then).

He was selfish . As for Argentina , there i agree , that was mostly hatin .

Dnmac4 wrote:Now he plays on a much worse team, is scoring about a goal per game and assisting almost at that rate plus he just won player of the tournament in the World Cup and dragged Argentina to the finals and to overtime of the final game while his other "world class" attacking partners shit the bed.

And now the haters want to see him be more selfish and score 90 goals again.  He just can't win.  Either way there going to hate.

All i read is , 'i am a fanboy' . Also , people having big expectations of Messi does not necessarily translate as them wanting him to be selfish again. And certainly few to do with hate , not everyone who questions or questioned Messi is a hater.

Dnmac4 wrote:It may be decades before you see something like that again or you may never see it again in our life time.  Or Ronaldo could challenge it this year.

Ronaldo gets the same sort of haters who just can't sit back and enjoy these two players who you will probably never see again in the next couple generations.

I just don't get it.

And just to put that year into context.  That year he scored 13 more club goals than Ronaldo's best year on any team.

And Ronaldo is probably the best pure goal scorer I've ever seen.

Agreed and that's what i've personally always have been doing. I wonder when the Ronaldo peaked threads are going to start and the next captain obvious comes in and saves the day . "You irrelevant plebs , it was obvious , anyone with a brain would not expect the same numbers from Ronaldo after La Decima " . Wait for it .

Dnmac4 wrote:So yea, I would probably say you will not see anything like that again and if you want to call that peaking than go right ahead.

Basically TL;DR version: You will probably not see anything like that again , so that's when he peaked .

by Dnmac4 on Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 am , 2nd page of the thread

Dnmac4 wrote:This thread is such a joke.  The expectations placed upon Barca and Messi on this forum are so high no team or player can ever reach them.

One person on here praised Ronaldo in his win yesterday for his defensive play when every game Messi plays he is better defensively then Ronaldo (one of the worst defensive players ever) and yesterday Ronaldo produced 0/0 goals and assists and Messi had 1/1 goals and assists.

To come on a forum and use a game where a player set up the go ahead goal and scored the winning goal and use that as his "bad game" is just going full retard.  

Not to mention not one person has even hinted that Sociedad is actually a good team with some very good players on it.  But I'm sure 90% of the posters on here have never even watched them play.  From some of the comments on here you would have thought he was playing against a bunch of scrubs.

People point to the chances he missed and use that against him but why don't you try using your brain and realize that he sets up so many chances for himself and his team that he can miss a couple golden opportunities in a game and end up as man of the match with a goal and assist.  

It's not easy to set up these opportunities over and over again especially with a makeshift team  that has probably never taken the pitch together and no Xavi or Iniesta to help him.

It's hilarious, before it was Messi only produces his great stats because of  Xavi and Iniesta and now he plays without either one of them or Busquets for that matter and he sets up so many golden opportunities for himself and his teammates that he misses a few and he's peaking while still scoring a goal and an assist.

I mean the logic is so flawed it's a joke especially when you compare his performances to some of the other players people on here praise.

I just can't believe this thread was even made for a player who may lead Europe in goals and assists this year and this is his "bad year" or year he's peaked.  If you can't understand that Messi will keep his goal scoring at the same incredible level it's been at and then also add to that the most assists in Europe then I don't know what to tell you.

Please tell me what more this player needs to do to impress you or see that he hasn't peaked?  I mean what in the world do you expect from him?

Dnmac4 wrote:Claiming that Messi has peaked the year he scored over 90 goals in a calendar year with like 75 of them coming for his club team alone is supposed to be some sort of revelation?  No shit, no one with a brain expected those numbers again.

But i thought it was obvious

Dante......

That..... was beautiful.

Dante wrote:by Dnmac4 on Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 am , 2nd page of the thread

Dnmac4 wrote:This thread is such a joke.  The expectations placed upon Barca and Messi on this forum are so high no team or player can ever reach them.

One person on here praised Ronaldo in his win yesterday for his defensive play when every game Messi plays he is better defensively then Ronaldo (one of the worst defensive players ever) and yesterday Ronaldo produced 0/0 goals and assists and Messi had 1/1 goals and assists.

To come on a forum and use a game where a player set up the go ahead goal and scored the winning goal and use that as his "bad game" is just going full retard.  

Not to mention not one person has even hinted that Sociedad is actually a good team with some very good players on it.  But I'm sure 90% of the posters on here have never even watched them play.  From some of the comments on here you would have thought he was playing against a bunch of scrubs.

People point to the chances he missed and use that against him but why don't you try using your brain and realize that he sets up so many chances for himself and his team that he can miss a couple golden opportunities in a game and end up as man of the match with a goal and assist.  

It's not easy to set up these opportunities over and over again especially with a makeshift team  that has probably never taken the pitch together and no Xavi or Iniesta to help him.

It's hilarious, before it was Messi only produces his great stats because of  Xavi and Iniesta and now he plays without either one of them or Busquets for that matter and he sets up so many golden opportunities for himself and his teammates that he misses a few and he's peaking while still scoring a goal and an assist.

I mean the logic is so flawed it's a joke especially when you compare his performances to some of the other players people on here praise.

I just can't believe this thread was even made for a player who may lead Europe in goals and assists this year and this is his "bad year" or year he's peaked.  If you can't understand that Messi will keep his goal scoring at the same incredible level it's been at and then also add to that the most assists in Europe then I don't know what to tell you.

Please tell me what more this player needs to do to impress you or see that he hasn't peaked?  I mean what in the world do you expect from him?

Dnmac4 wrote:Claiming that Messi has peaked the year he scored over 90 goals in a calendar year with like 75 of them coming for his club team alone is supposed to be some sort of revelation?  No shit, no one with a brain expected those numbers again.

But i thought it was obvious

Wow your dense.

That post was from 2012 talking about the 2012 season.  Where he did score a truck load of goals and add a ton of assists.

And won the Balon D'or.

Your right though, his play really tailed off that year.

Let's take the part you highlighted in full context since my post was 100% correct and you did indeed go full retard and are continuing to do so.

"I just can't believe this thread was even made for a player who may lead Europe in goals and assists this year and this is his "bad year" or year he's peaked.  If you can't understand that Messi will keep his goal scoring at the same incredible level it's been at and then also add to that the most assists in Europe then I don't know what to tell you."

Did you think I meant until the end of time, until football ended as a sport or is Messi's assist totals just carried on and it's like a life time running tab?

I mean do you own a brain?  It's painfully obvious I was talking about the season going on, in fact, the whole post was about that season.

My initial response would be , why change the subject , because i kinda knew first hand that you would , and you did neglect to talk about the peaked part , because people like you are never wrong about anything , as i painstakingly have learned over time .

So i thought it over for a minute and i ditched that post , because it would lead nowhere. Why , you may ask. When i was reading your response , I was finishing my splendid dish of rooster cooked in red wine , with some exceptional pasta to go with it , topped with some superb red sauce and mushrooms that i bought 2 days ago from the super market. After all that , i decided that i don't like your behaviour .

So , i have nothing else to add . You said it all yourself .

Rooster in red wine is splendid in all honesty. Oh and Dante, awesome post.

Lol

He's not the same player. I don't know if he doesn't have the nerd-like enthusiasm for the sport anymore and concentrates on his kid and wife instead, if he's lazy and doesn't train properly (he often looks ponderous, not sharp), if it's because his surrounding has declined (no prime Xavi, no prime Messi, maybe haters were right all along ), if it's because he has lost a yard after injuries or whatever. But he's not the same player. Even if you look at the pure statistical numbers in Harmonica fashion he went from 4.2 successful dribbles per game/2.5 unsuccessful dribbles per game in 12/13 to a ratio of (3.9 successful/4.5 unsuccessful) dribbles per game this season. Meaning his fail rate at taking players on has almost doubled. There is not the same sharpness in his dribbling ability. He doesn't run at players anymore, he often makes "evading" dribbles, lateral instead of vertical movements. His finishing has also detoriated obviously. At this moment, after almost 1/3 of the season has past, he is being outscored by 9 players in Europe (including Callejon ) and is equal with 5 others. Totally unthinkable in the Pep/Tito era. If he continues like this he is going to end up with only 24 goals in La Liga. He can't make the difference even against teams like Almeria consistently anymore. It needed Suarez' and Neymar's substitution to make the difference in the final third. Some games he shows glimpses of his old self (Ajax 2nd half) but other than that he's not the same. It's also not just a case of "not being as good as 91 goals a year". This is the worst Messi since his teenage days where he was getting injured every 2 weeks. Obviously still world class if he scores 30+ and assists 20+ in all competitions but far from the historical guy who was putting up numbers from the 50s and 60s.

He reached that unhuman 90 goals in a year achievement because in Guardiola's last year his work rate decreased drastically so that he didn't need to be subbed off or benched for rest and could just focus on his flashes in the final third of every minute of every game in order to reach said record, and he reduced it even more after his injuries in 2013 in order to minimize the risks of being injured and miss last WC.

The result is a different player from 3/4 years ago that, he often walks, doesn't press or offer off ball movement like he used to but has moments of brilliance that can win you the game, altho atm he's playing deeper and focusing on assisting so there's another difference too.

Fußball wrote:He's not the same player. I don't know if he doesn't have the nerd-like enthusiasm for the sport anymore and concentrates on his kid and wife instead, if he's lazy and doesn't train properly (he often looks ponderous, not sharp), if it's because his surrounding has declined (no prime Xavi, no prime Messi, maybe haters were right all along ), if it's because he has lost a yard after injuries or whatever.

I agree with the last part. The first part sounds like an excuse. I guess all footballing dad's decline because they focus more on their family? Again, just sounds kinda fishy, IMO.

Again, this post was from almost 3 years ago.

3 years in football terms is an eternity.  Does anyone even sit back and think about what's happened to Messi, Barca and the Spanish National team since that post?

Barca's had 4 coaches in that time (One died for gods sake and one had no business being a coach), if you don't think managers affect how a player performs I could give you so many examples it's not even funny.

Gerard Pique was voted one of the 12 best players in Europe LOL.  Puyol has retired since then, Xavi is a shell of himself, they had almost a totally different team.

Messi was hurt for basically a full year playing in half the games while injured.

Spain went from being one of the best national teams of all time and winning 3 straight competitions capping it off with a total demolishing of Italy 4-0 (Mario Balotelli was in the team of the tournament) to now struggling to beat average sides and not even close to getting out of the group stages of the WC.

Messi Captained his team to a WC final and was player of the tournament which was supposedly all he had left to accomplish was play well int he WC.

I could go on and on.  Leading up to 2012 Messi and Barcelona had the most stable environment possible, since then it has been total chaos.

Not to mention no one is arguing if he is better now or in 2012, it's obvious.  But some of the reasons people point to like effective runs per game how he doesn't blow by people anymore, doesn't run as much is just nonsense.

Ronaldo used to blow past people too, he could dribble them off the pitch, he hasn't done that since he got to Spain.  It doesn't mean he is a shell of himself, he just changed the way he plays, way less dribbling and way more getting into dangerous areas on the field.

Again, I still don't really get why this post is even valid 3 years later seeing as after this post the man won the Balon D'or and was player of the World Cup plus he's about to break every single meaningful goal scoring record in way less games than his competition and I mean WAY LESS.  

I just don't really understand what people expect from these two guys, Ronaldo and Messi.

If Messi has a 30/25 year is that somehow a bad year?

Again, this post was from almost 3 years ago.

3 years in football terms is an eternity.  Does anyone even sit back and think about what's happened to Messi, Barca and the Spanish National team since that post?

Barca's had 4 coaches in that time (One died for gods sake and one had no business being a coach), if you don't think managers affect how a player performs I could give you so many examples it's not even funny.

Gerard Pique was voted one of the 12 best players in Europe LOL.  Puyol has retired since then, Xavi is a shell of himself, they had almost a totally different team.

Messi was hurt for basically a full year playing in half the games while injured.

Spain went from being one of the best national teams of all time and winning 3 straight competitions capping it off with a total demolishing of Italy 4-0 (Mario Balotelli was in the team of the tournament) to now struggling to beat average sides and not even close to getting out of the group stages of the WC.

Messi Captained his team to a WC final and was player of the tournament which was supposedly all he had left to accomplish was play well int he WC.

I could go on and on.  Leading up to 2012 Messi and Barcelona had the most stable environment possible, since then it has been total chaos.

Not to mention no one is arguing if he is better now or in 2012, it's obvious.  But some of the reasons people point to like effective runs per game how he doesn't blow by people anymore, doesn't run as much is just nonsense.

Ronaldo used to blow past people too, he could dribble them off the pitch, he hasn't done that since he got to Spain.  It doesn't mean he is a shell of himself, he just changed the way he plays, way less dribbling and way more getting into dangerous areas on the field.

Again, I still don't really get why this post is even valid 3 years later seeing as after this post the man won the Balon D'or and was player of the World Cup plus he's about to break every single meaningful goal scoring record in way less games than his competition and I mean WAY LESS.  

I just don't really understand what people expect from these two guys, Ronaldo and Messi.

If Messi has a 30/25 year is that somehow a bad year?

Thimmy wrote:

Ganso wrote:Even while playing sub par, his overall game is better than CR's

How so? Normally, I'd agree, but I don't really think that's the case, based on current form. Sure, CR had a really bad game against Liverpool, but he's been performing consistently well -overall- for quite some time now.

Really? C.Ronaldo's overall game has not been close to Messi's this season, even if he has improved in that aspect. Seriously, Messi has been forced to be the creative spark of the team, seeing as no one else but him has been able to create anything out of note. The same can't be said with C.ronaldo.

Plus, IIRC the OP is a Messi hater.

tbf as mention here by a few with an aging squad he can barely do much, our midfield has been pretty poor and ran over by the quality sides, the less said about our defence the better, all we have is a forward line who have bailed us out this season, or else we would be outside the top 4 in the league.

Messi is lacking a proper motivator to get the best out of him, as I said before since Pep departure no one has been able to motivate him, especially after his injury. No offence to our coaches, but they've achieved nothing (and unfortunately don't seem to have the balls) and even Pep near the end couldn't motivated the squad because they thought they deserved to rest and only take the big games seriously (which they didn't even do). Also lacking a proper leader (Puyol) in the squad makes this team too soft imo.

Ronaldo has been outstanding this season, his overall performances apart from his goals are the best they have ever been since he has joined Real Madrid. He's creating so many great chances for his teammates, playing more passes and getting much more involved in the earlier phases of the game.

I think it has more to do with the vast majority of his touches coming in the centre now, and the other reason is because this Real Madrid team is the best edition he has played on in his 6 seasons at the club.

There is absolutely no doubt who has been the better player this season.

Lord Awesome wrote:The reason there's even haters is because there's people who boast. Around the time this thread was made I kept reading how Messi was breaking records at just/only 25, for example. Or how he would win the rest of the Ballon D'Or until he retires. If some fans are gonna spew stuff like that than one can say that they had it coming. Time is certainly cruel, isn't it?

You are right. Some people want a player to fail just because they would be able to say '' I told you so '' to someone else. simly pathetic . Some people hate the fans or the fact that a player get too much praise ( most of the time rightfully ) and end up hating a player or disliking him. Happen with Lebron james, Neymar ...
However I'd expect someone who know about football and love it to not hate on players just because they've got some annoying fans.

1 - Barcelona's midfielders have recorded only one assist in La Liga this term; Real Madrid's midfielders have managed 17. Contribution.

But of course, the fact that our midfield, that used to be the best in the world, has been sh*te is Messi's fault.

Pippo wrote:Ronaldo has been outstanding this season, his overall performances apart from his goals are the best they have ever been since he has joined Real Madrid. He's creating so many great chances for his teammates, playing more passes and getting much more involved in the earlier phases of the game.

I think it has more to do with the vast majority of his touches coming in the centre now, and the other reason is because this Real Madrid team is the best edition he has played on in his 6 seasons at the club.

There is absolutely no doubt who has been the better player this season.

As good as C.Ronaldo's all around play has been, it has not been better than Messi.

Messi:

C.Ronaldo:

I am not a fan of stat, but from what I have seen so far this season, I think that those stat's are quite accurate. While C.ronaldo has improved his all around play, I still don't think that it has been even close to Messi's all around play this season so far. I mean, Messi has been basically our entire creative spark this season. No one but him has had that consistency in that department. I mean, our midfield has only registered 1 assist so far in the league, compare that with 17 from Real Madrid. And it's not just the assist, but in the build up aswell. Our midfield lacks that killer touch, which has forced Messi to take that role.

" overall game " sounds like some subjective BS that messi fanboys are clinging to in order to keep deluding themselves into believing that messi is still the best player in the world .

GTFO with that harmonicaesque garbage .

Funny how you forget to mention messi gets many more touches on the ball and loses the ball more then ronaldo. how many unsuccessful dribbles has he had?

This season cr and messi are pretty on par if you want to consider the overall contribution to the team. As you can ALSO see, ronaldo and messi have the same amount of shots. Except ronaldo has more goals.

I'm pretty sure messi will pick it up. its just a matter of effort. dude needs to stop slacking off in practice and work harder

FennecFox7 wrote:Funny how you forget to mention messi gets many more touches on the ball and loses the ball more then ronaldo. how many unsuccessful dribbles has he had?

This season cr and messi are pretty on par if you want to consider the overall contribution to the team. As you can ALSO see, ronaldo and messi have the same amount of shots. Except ronaldo has more goals.

I'm pretty sure messi will pick it up. its just a matter of effort. dude needs to stop slacking off in practice and work harder

Messi get's more touches because he is more involved in the build up play than C.ronaldo, who is mostly in the final third. I mean, our style has not been so effective so far. So, the only thing that our style will favour Messi is total passes, and they themselves mean nothing.

And look at that chart, it showed that Messi get's dispossesed more, but just a little more.

And indeed, C.Ronaldo has been more clinical this season. For once.  But you can also see, that eventhough Messi runs less than C.Ronaldo, Messi is a more effective defender, seeing as he avg more interceptions + tackle.

And it's not just stats. You just need to watch Real Madrid and Barca play. Messi so far has been playing as an out-and-out nr.10, while C.Ronaldo is more of a forward winger. Which means it's quite obvious that Messi will be more involved in the build-up. And like I said earlier, Messi has been our ONLY creative spark so far this season.

harhar11 wrote:

Messi:

C.Ronaldo:

See, that's the thing, those's stats lack Physical & Mental attributes. If one were to judge a player (and I mean any player) one would have to include all aspects of a player indiscriminate of his position. I'm not telling you or anyone to make or stop posting those stats. Just pointing out that these stats are limited and while they may be faithful and honest it can't tell how the player is as whole. That's why I deem these stats as incomplete.

harhar11 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:Funny how you forget to mention messi gets many more touches on the ball and loses the ball more then ronaldo. how many unsuccessful dribbles has he had?

This season cr and messi are pretty on par if you want to consider the overall contribution to the team. As you can ALSO see, ronaldo and messi have the same amount of shots. Except ronaldo has more goals.

I'm pretty sure messi will pick it up. its just a matter of effort. dude needs to stop slacking off in practice and work harder

Messi get's more touches because he is more involved in the build up play than C.ronaldo, who is mostly in the final third. I mean, our style has not been so effective so far. So, the only thing that our style will favour Messi is total passes, and they themselves mean nothing.

And look at that chart, it showed that Messi get's dispossesed more, but just a little more.

And indeed, C.Ronaldo has been more clinical this season. For once.  But you can also see, that eventhough Messi runs less than C.Ronaldo, Messi is a more effective defender, seeing as he avg more interceptions + tackle.

And it's not just stats. You just need to watch Real Madrid and Barca play. Messi so far has been playing as an out-and-out nr.10, while C.Ronaldo is more of a forward winger. Which means it's quite obvious that Messi will be more involved in the build-up. And like I said earlier, Messi has been our ONLY creative spark so far this season.

Unsuccessful dribbles are not included in "dispossessions" dude. That's why its a bs rating

Messi is playing as a "no10"? not so. He just can't score right now as he used to. Yeah, if needed, he CAN play as a n10 but hes playing as a false 9/SS right now. he just cant finish.

See, when you play with two runners, you will always have more through balls. Ronaldo IS THE guy making the runs. in madrids case, benzema is the one who plays the most through balls cause thats his job.

Defending stats for a forward.. ok dude. stop This is not even worth it. And just fyi, both ronaldo AND messi are mediocre defenders. Period

My argument is a bit disorganized but honestly they look similar. Their overall play has been about even this season, besides two things; messis high amount of unsuccessful dribbles that you didn't mention and you cleverly decided to put in the "dispossessed category" , and the fact is that he has been largely inconsistant and unfit as of late

FennecFox7 wrote:

harhar11 wrote:

FennecFox7 wrote:Funny how you forget to mention messi gets many more touches on the ball and loses the ball more then ronaldo. how many unsuccessful dribbles has he had?

This season cr and messi are pretty on par if you want to consider the overall contribution to the team. As you can ALSO see, ronaldo and messi have the same amount of shots. Except ronaldo has more goals.

I'm pretty sure messi will pick it up. its just a matter of effort. dude needs to stop slacking off in practice and work harder

Messi get's more touches because he is more involved in the build up play than C.ronaldo, who is mostly in the final third. I mean, our style has not been so effective so far. So, the only thing that our style will favour Messi is total passes, and they themselves mean nothing.

And look at that chart, it showed that Messi get's dispossesed more, but just a little more.

And indeed, C.Ronaldo has been more clinical this season. For once.  But you can also see, that eventhough Messi runs less than C.Ronaldo, Messi is a more effective defender, seeing as he avg more interceptions + tackle.

And it's not just stats. You just need to watch Real Madrid and Barca play. Messi so far has been playing as an out-and-out nr.10, while C.Ronaldo is more of a forward winger. Which means it's quite obvious that Messi will be more involved in the build-up. And like I said earlier, Messi has been our ONLY creative spark so far this season.

Unsuccessful dribbles are not included in "dispossessions" dude. That's why its a bs rating

Messi is playing as a "no10"? not so. He just can't score right now as he used to. Yeah, if needed, he CAN play as a n10 but hes playing as a false 9/SS right now. he just cant finish.

See, when you play with two runners, you will always have more through balls. Ronaldo IS THE guy making the runs. in madrids case, benzema is the one who plays the most through balls cause thats his job.

Defending stats for a forward.. ok dude. stop This is not even worth it. And just fyi, both ronaldo AND messi are mediocre defenders. Period

My argument is a bit disorganized but honestly they look similar. Their overall play has been about even this season, besides two things; messis high amount of unsuccessful dribbles that you didn't mention and you cleverly decided to put in the "dispossessed category" , and the fact is that he has been largely inconsistant and unfit as of late

It's understandable tbh since he went from Pep's magical milkshakes to Coca-Cola.

photoshop skills are amazing there valk.
fatigue and lack of desire probably came from the world cup, something he really wanted and didn't get, your all looking far too much into it, but even then he is running a lot more now then last year which really defeats the argument in the first place..

Spoiler:

That photoshop

is anyone actually disputing the fact that messi has peaked ?

there is someone who believes that messi might still get better in the future ?