Re: Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:54 pm

kiranr wrote:
Zealous wrote:
kiranr wrote:

Seriously, you guys think Ozil will boss a midfield of Pirlo, Marchisio? Not happening. He is not that good yet.

Why are you as a Barca fan laughing? You of all people should know by now how dangerous Ozil is.

As a Barca fan how afraid am i of Ozil

Let us just say that i fear Benzema and CR more than Ozil everytime in Clasico.

As much as i love Ozil, he is not there yet to be able to say that Italian midfield can be dominated by him. Not going to happen.

LOL that's your problem not Ozil's. He's a big reason why Madrid beat Barca last time and the game before that he was even better arguably.

Ozil can have a big game imo and it's not like he won't have support, Khedira, Schweinsteiger/Kroos, Muller etc will all put in a shift as well. Italy aren't going to be playing a team who plays two banks of four and leaves Pirlo free lol

We'll see what happens but either way the game will be great.

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:56 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Italians have Pirlo.

Germans have Özil, Schweinsteiger, Khedira.

Why again are we only talking about Özil? And why would you think the Italian midfield might win that battle?

Ozil could be asked to man mark Pirlo. He's done it with Madrid vs AC Milan. In both games Pirlo was kept quiet.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:56 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Italians have Pirlo.

Germans have Özil, Schweinsteiger, Khedira.

Why again are we only talking about Özil? And why would you think the Italian midfield might win that battle?

It's about numbers.... Italy will have Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montolivo all in the middle to Germany's 3.

I dont care how good you are when another team out numbers you then you will struggle.

Germany would wise that as soon as they get the ball switch it outwide and try and get 2 v 1 situations with the italian fullbacks.... this will then bring Marchisio and DDR outwide to cover and leave Pirlo exposed.

If they try to pass through Italy i think they will come unstuck, just due to Italy having greater numbers and options.

by kiranr Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:57 pm

Zealous wrote:

LOL that's your problem not Ozil's. He's a big reason why Madrid beat Barca last time and the game before that he was even better arguably.

Ozil can have a big game imo and it's not like he won't have support, Khedira, Schweinsteiger/Kroos, Muller etc will all put in a shift as well. Italy aren't going to be playing a team who plays two banks of four and leaves Pirlo free lol

We'll see what happens but either way the game will be great.

Of course it is not Ozil's problem. Poor fellow is trying as hard as he can. Maybe one day he will be counted among the elite midfielders list. But not today.

And he is ONE of the reasons why Madrid beat us. Not the big by any means.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:59 pm

Zeal stop comparing this Pirlo to the Pirlo at the end of his Milan days ffs....

That Pirlo could have been stopped by Lee f*cking Cattermole.

This is a reJUVEnated Pirlo and totally different.

It's like comparing the Zidane of few years before the 2006 WC when he was going on a downward spiral for a few season and seemed past it and then came back at the end and assuming its the same.

Pirlo's career pattern has been very similar.

by guest7 Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:00 pm

A midfield of Schweini, Khedira and Özil should boss a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio.

Both Khedira and Schweini are very complete and Khedira should do the job to shut down Pirlo. Once Pirlo is out of the picture I'm sure the game will go in Germany's hands.

Still think Italy will win this and the final will be Italy-Portugal.

by kiranr Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:01 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

It's about numbers.... Italy will have Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montolivo all in the middle to Germany's 3.

I dont care how good you are when another team out numbers you then you will struggle.

Germany would wise that as soon as they get the ball switch it outwide and try and get 2 v 1 situations with the italian fullbacks.... this will then bring Marchisio and DDR outwide to cover and leave Pirlo exposed.

If they try to pass through Italy i think they will come unstuck, just due to Italy having greater numbers and options.

That is the thing Mole, they have the numbers and they are not scrubs either when compared to the German midfield. I see players like Ozil and Schweini playing a lot of crosses to Klose in this match to be honest as the ball over the top will be Germany's best bet.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:02 pm

Se7en wrote:A midfield of Schweini, Khedira and Özil should boss a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio.

Both Khedira and Schweini are very complete and Khedira should do the job to shut down Pirlo. Once Pirlo is out of the picture I'm sure the game will go in Germany's hands.

Still think Italy will win this and the final will be Italy-Portugal.

It's not going to be a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio though..... it's going to be a narrow midfield 4 of Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montilivo.

by Grande_Milano Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:02 pm

if only nick was here to show you that marchisio is goat Smile

plus ddr and pirlo Razz

the problem is finishing skills

by kiranr Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:03 pm

Se7en wrote:A midfield of Schweini, Khedira and Özil should boss a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio.

Both Khedira and Schweini are very complete and Khedira should do the job to shut down Pirlo. Once Pirlo is out of the picture I'm sure the game will go in Germany's hands.

Still think Italy will win this and the final will be Italy-Portugal.

Did you just mention Khedira and Schweini as though they are similar players? Laughing

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:05 pm

kiranr wrote:
Zealous wrote:

LOL that's your problem not Ozil's. He's a big reason why Madrid beat Barca last time and the game before that he was even better arguably.

Ozil can have a big game imo and it's not like he won't have support, Khedira, Schweinsteiger/Kroos, Muller etc will all put in a shift as well. Italy aren't going to be playing a team who plays two banks of four and leaves Pirlo free lol

We'll see what happens but either way the game will be great.

Of course it is not Ozil's problem. Poor fellow is trying as hard as he can. Maybe one day he will be counted among the elite midfielders list. But not today.

And he is ONE of the reasons why Madrid beat us. Not the big by any means.

Ozil is one of the best.

dealwith.gif

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Zeal stop comparing this Pirlo to the Pirlo at the end of his Milan days ffs....

That Pirlo could have been stopped by Lee f*cking Cattermole.

This is a reJUVEnated Pirlo and totally different.

It's like comparing the Zidane of few years before the 2006 WC when he was going on a downward spiral for a few season and seemed past it and then came back at the end and assuming its the same.

Pirlo's career pattern has been very similar.

We'll see but he'll be man marked against Germany, we'll see how he handles that.

He's a greatplayer that Pirlo and mad respect to him he's ballin' atm.

by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:09 pm

kiranr wrote:
Did you just mention Khedira and Schweini as though they are similar players?

They actually are. Did you watch any Germany matches this tournament? Piggy has stepped back a little and Khedira has done exactly what Schweinsteiger used to do, I'd agree that Piggy has a bit more of ze vision etc., but fundamentally, either of them can do the other's job well enough.

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:10 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Se7en wrote:A midfield of Schweini, Khedira and Özil should boss a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio.

Both Khedira and Schweini are very complete and Khedira should do the job to shut down Pirlo. Once Pirlo is out of the picture I'm sure the game will go in Germany's hands.

Still think Italy will win this and the final will be Italy-Portugal.

It's not going to be a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio though..... it's going to be a narrow midfield 4 of Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montilivo.

There's a quick fix for that and it's something England didn't use nearly enough and that's the flanks. Lahm and maybe Bender will stretch the pitch, Italy's four in midfield will be preqccupied elsewhere and spaces will start to show in those cases a 3 can overcome a 4.

by Juveman17 Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:10 pm

Schwein was garbage against Greece.........I hope he plays that way vs Italy Very Happy

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:12 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Did you just mention Khedira and Schweini as though they are similar players?

They actually are. Did you watch any Germany matches this tournament? Piggy has stepped back a little and Khedira has done exactly what Schweinsteiger used to do, I'd agree that Piggy has a bit more of ze vision etc., but fundamentally, either of them can do the other's job well enough.

People don't rate Khedira for whatever reason, some people think he's a DM lol

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:14 pm

For teh record I hope Italy win because if Portugal beat Spain (big if lol) I think Portugal have all the tools to deal with Italy eco smile

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:14 pm

Zealous wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Se7en wrote:A midfield of Schweini, Khedira and Özil should boss a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio.

Both Khedira and Schweini are very complete and Khedira should do the job to shut down Pirlo. Once Pirlo is out of the picture I'm sure the game will go in Germany's hands.

Still think Italy will win this and the final will be Italy-Portugal.

It's not going to be a midfield of Pirlo and Marchisio though..... it's going to be a narrow midfield 4 of Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montilivo.

There's a quick fix for that and it's something England didn't use nearly enough and that's the flanks. Lahm and maybe Bender will stretch the pitch, Italy's four in midfield will be preqccupied elsewhere and spaces will start to show in those cases a 3 can overcome a 4.

Italy's greatest weakness is thier width ( or lack of) the whole game is centralized and thier fullbacks who are asked to provide the width are quite poor going forward while good defensively.

I don't really see an out come with Ozil dominating anyone..... because Italy will out number Germany in the middle he will never have any space to operate, that's the strength of the 4-3-1-2 they will always have 4 players in the middle but their greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.

The players that will shine in this game if Germany win are the fullbacks, wide players and Gomez if he plays because Chiellini wont be playing as i'm not really sure Barzagli and Bonucci are well equipped with to deal with like i think Chiellini could.

It's about numbers.... Italy will have Pirlo-Marchisio-De Rossi-Montolivo all in the middle to Germany's 3.

I dont care how good you are when another team out numbers you then you will struggle.

Germany would wise that as soon as they get the ball switch it outwide and try and get 2 v 1 situations with the italian fullbacks.... this will then bring Marchisio and DDR outwide to cover and leave Pirlo exposed.

If they try to pass through Italy i think they will come unstuck, just due to Italy having greater numbers and options.

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:17 pm

If Germany force Italy into defending on the flank and moving from side to side they won't last long.

Germany can win the midfield battle with 3. Beacuse they won't have to deal with 4 midfielders only focused on them. Hell even Hummels and Badstuber can play it from the back which would mean an extra man for the Germans.

by kiranr Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:17 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:
kiranr wrote:
Did you just mention Khedira and Schweini as though they are similar players?

They actually are. Did you watch any Germany matches this tournament? Piggy has stepped back a little and Khedira has done exactly what Schweinsteiger used to do, I'd agree that Piggy has a bit more of ze vision etc., but fundamentally, either of them can do the other's job well enough.

Tactically i can agree. But, not technically.

by Gemini Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:18 pm

I don't think Pirlo should be man marked, we got enough threat ourselves they should be very worried about Özil in the match.

They struggled with the rare rooney & welbeck link up play, well Özil is going to be key and should link up more frequently with hopefully Klose, and other forwards playing.

As I see it, Italy's scoring potential limited to 1 which is their main problem, they can't win Germany 1-0 I refuse to believe that.

by The Franchise Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:18 pm

One has to think straight away, Ozil and Pirlo playing in the same space...worrying if your Italy. Not matter how well Pirlo has played, he isnt a defensive player and leaving him alone to deal with Ozil (given both teams ability, you expect possession to be about even. You certaintly wouldnt expect one team to dominate possession here) would be the downfall of Italy for sure.

He (Pirlo) has been flanked by Marchisio and Di Rossi either side, however to use all 3 players for closing up the space for Ozil, the deeper German midfield will have so much time on the ball. You simply cant allow that if you want any foothold on the game.

Italy cant leave Pirlo alone to deal with Ozil, but you cant send him help because the German deeplying players will have far too much time on the ball.

I can imagine Italy must be thinking of playing lobsided to counter this. Something like this when Germany have the ball.

Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion - Page 3 AbCTicxanJ

Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion - Page 3 AbCTicxanJ

Make your football formation with this11.com

Quite different to last nights

Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion - Page 3 It-eng

But here Pirlo gets the help he requires from Marchisio while the midfield can still get reasonably tight on Germanys.

Of course for Germany, they are going to want to close down Pirlo at all times. Ozil's work rate is going to be the factor which swings that, frankly if he works hard Pirlo will have difficulty controlling the game, if he doesnt then Pirlo will.

For Italy there is the X factor dynamic of a return to 3 at the back, which would look like.

Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion - Page 3 AbCTilSadd

Semi final: Germany vs Italy discussion - Page 3 AbCTilSadd

Make your football formation with this11.com

Here, indeed your leaving Pirlo alone to deal with Ozil, but if he does get beat you have a spare man back to who can come out (either side, Chiellini or Bonnuci depending on where Ozil wants to drift) to cut him off.

I wonder how it all turns out. I guess it would be much less predictable (both the game and the tactics involved) than the other semi final.

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:23 pm

Pretty much my feelings exactly franchise.

+1 would read again.

by VivaStPauli Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:26 pm

Khedira: doesn't do backheels or stepovers; considered crap by 90% of Southern Europe; still one of the best in the world.

Or, to put it in Mou's words: "Ronaldo is for magic. Khedira is for winning."

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:34 pm

The other thing that should be mentioned, is Cassano drops deep when Italy are defending which will give them an ever greater number advantage.

You are all talking about Italy from a defensive stand point in midfield but how about going forward? With Cassano picking up Schweignsteiger and De Rossi and Marchisio picking up Khedira and Ozil.

The thing you are talking about mus'nt happen from a Germany standpoint happens again..... Pirlo is free with a cigar in his mouth.

As mentioned before if Germany try to pass through Italy they will come unstuck in my eyes as also mentioned before Germany need to use the wingers and fullbacks as much as possible to drag out covering midfielders to expose Pirlo.

What Italy need to do is the exact scenario i mentioned above... if Cassano drops deep and picks up Schweignsteiger ( like i think he will as he usually does) then Germany have a massive problem because the end result will be Pirlo will have massive loads of space.

Although this tactical view is only really relevant for the first 70 mins because Cassano and Ozil wont last much longer than that..... then the Coaches become important.

That's if the scoreline is close at this point anyway, if Balotelli has his shooting boots on it would probably be over by half time :lucas :

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:41 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:Khedira: doesn't do backheels or stepovers; considered crap by 90% of Southern Europe; still one of the best in the world.

Or, to put it in Mou's words: "Ronaldo is for magic. Khedira is for winning."

by Zealous Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:52 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:The other thing that should be mentioned, is Cassano drops deep when Italy are defending which will give them an ever greater number advantage.

You are all talking about Italy from a defensive stand point in midfield but how about going forward? With Cassano picking up Schweignsteiger and De Rossi and Marchisio picking up Khedira and Ozil.

The thing you are talking about mus'nt happen from a Germany standpoint happens again..... Pirlo is free with a cigar in his mouth.

That isn't being talked about because Khedira, Schweinsteiger and Ozil will just out run them. Italy don't want to get into a stamina match with Germany they will just flat out lose that. When you are the physically weaker side you don't man mark.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:As mentioned before if Germany try to pass through Italy they will come unstuck in my eyes as also mentioned before Germany need to use the wingers and fullbacks as much as possible to drag out covering midfielders to expose Pirlo.

And they will do exactly that. Germany have shown they are very dynamic in attack, they can score a goal from almost any angle, left right or center of the pitch. The question will be can Italy keep up with that if they play a diamond. They did against England because England only attacked through one flank and they still couldn't restrict them to no clear chances.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:What Italy need to do is the exact scenario i mentioned above... if Cassano drops deep and picks up Schweignsteiger ( like i think he will as he usually does) then Germany have a massive problem because the end result will be Pirlo will have massive loads of space.

All well and good in theory but are they actually physically up for it mole? This is still a sport after all.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Although this tactical view is only really relevant for the first 70 mins because Cassano and Ozil wont last much longer than that..... then the Coaches become important.

Ozil will maintain a high level for 90 minutes and he's done it before a bunch of times. For anyone who has watched him closly this stopped being an issue for a while now.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:That's if the scoreline is close at this point anyway, if Balotelli has his shooting boots on it would probably be over by half time :lucas :

Actually how efficient Italy's front line is will be important, I don't think they can win if they score zero goals in thirty five attempts like last night lol

EDIT: I would like to add that Germany have looked weak on set pieces, something Italy have been quite decent at so this could be a factor.

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