Greatest magician ever

Great read LS, agree with you on Mourinho

Lord Spencer wrote:The fact that Mou has such a cult like fan base is telling of the way the world works; a world that ignores facts and sensationalizes half-truths. Mou is not a magician, and his stint at Madrid is not a success. Anyone claiming that Mou is the best coach should read below and see how far wrong they are.

Lord Spencer wrote:Porto:

First of all, Porto winning the league is no big achievement. Porto and Benfica have the league title locked—especially Porto—that it does not require a genius to do so, and that whoever does so should have no claims of genius thrust into him.

So we can focus on the 2004 Cl. Porto qualified the second in their group after RM, they then face Manchester United, beating them by a one goal margin, then they comprehensively beaten Lyon, after which they faced Deportivo and beat them by a one goal margin. Finally, they won the CL by comprehensively beating Monaco. Many cite this campaign as proof of Mou's genius. Anyone doing so evidently did not watch the 2004 CL.

1- Man United were far from a strong team in 2004, they were a team barely racing with Arsenal in the BPL, and Deportivo were arguably a stronger side.
2- More importantly, that porto side were no scrubs: a team with the best Portuguese talent since Figo (Deco) and the strong defense of Paulo Farrera, Ricardo Carvalho, Jorge Costan, and Nuno Valente is not a scrub teams. They also had Maniche, Costinha, and Pedro Mendes at their prim as well. Deco was especially influential throughout the campaign.
3- This was a strange CL, where the arguably the strongest teams in the CL both has shocking performances against them (RM losing 3-1 to Monaco and the more shocking Milan 4-0 defeat to Deportivo). In fact both Monaco and Depor faced stronger opposition than Porto.

This victory was indeed an important one for Mou, and he is dully credited for, but why the frak no mention of the players is ever given by any Mou fan. I asked several about the name of Porto players to such fans, and many could not name a single one, and the few who could named only Deco or Carvalho.

I am not discrediting Mou for the victory, just know where the coach's influence ends when a victory is achieved. Also, while the Porto won the Cl, Mou did not show any particular tactical skill or knowledge. All matches were straightforward affair. So what we have is a strong team and a good coach and favorable circumstances. Porto winning the CL was not a miracle. Deportivo or Monaco winning the CL was more of a miracle given they had weaker sides.

Seriously? You've actually missed out on so many important things, skating over them as if they are irrelevant. What you wrote is essentially garbage.

Firstly, Jose Mourinho became the manager of FC Porto during the 2001/2002 season, in the January window. They were not even in a UEFA Cup position when Jose Mourinho arrived. After he became manager, he and FC Porto acquired 35 points out of a possible 45, including going on a 6 game winning streak to end the season, barely pipping past Benfica to be 3rd place in the Primeira. Your assumptions regarding the Primeira are pathetic and ignorant - before Jose Mourinho began his full first season in 2002/2003, FC Porto and Benfica did not win the Primeira for the past 3 years.

Regarding your player comments, those are laughable. It's obvious you did not watch the Primeira in the past, but I don't really blame you. You want to know something?


That is the lineup that FC Porto fielded in the 2004 UEFA Champions League final. Substitutes were Pedro Emanuel, Dmitri Alenichev, and Benni McCarthy.

Vitor Baia - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Jorge Costa - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Ricardo Carvalho - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Costinha - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Nuno Valente - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Deco - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Derlei - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Maniche - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Carlos Alberto - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Paulo Ferreira - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Pedro Mendes - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Pedro Emanuel - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Dmitri Alenichev - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Benni McCarthy - purchased by Jose Mourinho.

This was a team hardly filled with the best Portuguese players since Luis Figo. A few were great players, the rest were average before and after Jose Mourinho. The fact that you think Paulo Ferreira and Nuno Valente were great defenders pre-Mourinho is laughable - when they placed for Setúbal and Leiria they hardly achieved any acclaim compared to what they earned during the Jose Mourinho-era. Don't make me laugh about Maniche, Costa, and Pedro Mendes. They were at the top of their game DUE to Jose Mourinho, the same way Ferreira and Valente were heralded as top fullbacks yet when they made the move to a tougher league they collapsed defensively.

Lord Spencer wrote:Many cite this campaign as proof of Mou's genius. Anyone doing so evidently did not watch the 2004 CL.

FC Porto played a completely different style of football compared to Internazionale and Chelsea under Jose Mourinho. They were known for their pressing, attacking play which was built on flexibility with an extremely strong core of Carvalho-Costa-Costinha. Against Olympique Lyon, the two-legged tie was known for its aggressive attacking and open play, which FC Porto won 4-2 on aggregate. Then, against Deportivo La Coruna, they molded into an extremely defensive side to thwart the attacking threats of Diego Tristan and co., winning away at the Riazor, where Deportivo was brilliant against AC Milan, winning 4-0. Which lead to the Champions League final, where FC Porto conclusively destroyed AS Monaco. FC Porto completely dominated the 442 that was played by Monaco, with the aggressive 433 that won the key midfield battle which opened up gaps in AS Monaco's defense to exploit. With a quick goal, they simply defended and attacked on the break, scoring 2 decisive 2nd half goals to win 3-0.

The fact you think the matches were straight-forward shows how precise Jose Mourinho's tactics were. To defeat multiple opponents in a cup competition, where you mold and shape the squad to negate the opponents' strengths and greaten your strengths was obviously swept by you, seeing as how you may have no recollection of the matches at all.

FC Porto won the treble in the two full seasons in which Jose Mourinho was manager. The year after he left, FC Porto did not win the league title, nor did they win a domestic cup, nor did they win a European cup. FC Porto brought in players like Thiago Silva, Leandro, Ibson, Diego, Luis Fabiano, Quaresma, Raul Meireles, Helder Postiga, Pepe, and Seitaridis - players who gelled together after a full season and dominated the Primeira.

Good coach then He was the best in the world by massive margins at that time, even better than Arsene Wenger, who truly had a squad who was better than his own managing abilities.

Lord Spencer wrote:Chelsea

Imagine you have the strongest most expensive team in the league, your closest rival just sold their best players to accommodate building their new stadium, and the second closest rival is facing their biggest slump since the 1990s. Would any manager not win the league? FFS, Avram grant managed to get 2nd with that team. Fact is, Chelsea were second before Mou came, and with Mou came several star players as well. Even though, the core of that team was made and molded by Ranieri. So Mou comes in to the strongest richest team in the league, sitting into another person's work, and he is suddenly heralded as a genius coach. What logic is that.

Simply put, Mou's arena to prove himself was the CL. Where he got twice outsmarted by an arguably weaker team (Liverpool), and according to Mou fans a much inferior tactician (Rapha Benitez). It was his failure in the CL (which was predicted in the 3rd year as well) and his wavering results in the league that prompted trigger ginger to sack him. How Mou turned his sacking into a case of martyrdom is a lesson in marketing that should be taught in business schools. The fact that Nobody manager Avram Grant did better with Chelsea in the CL than Mou accentuates Mou's failure in that regard.

What genius if any did we see from Mou in Chelsea? Was it the titles that had little to no competition with Arsenal selling their players and Man United just recovering from their slump? Or was it the CL failure?

What we saw in Chelsea was a competent coach using the superior team to win a title, then failing to tactically use that superiority to win in Europe. That is exactly what it was, and yet Mou is being heralded as a tactical messiah by the English press. And we got him telling the whole world how Special he is.

In the 2003/2004 season, Chelsea almost obsessively played the 442 and small variants of it. Arsenal went undefeated in the 2003/2004 season. When Jose Mourinho arrived, guess what he did? He completely changed the tactical outlook of the Chelsea side, bringing a 433 variant that brought out the best of Claude Makelele, Frank Lampard, Michael Essien, and Joe Cole. Chelsea lost one match during the entire 2004/2005 season, a shock 1-0 away loss to Manchester City in which Nicolas Anelka scored the game winning penalty. Chelsea drew less games, won more games, scored more goals, and conceded a record-low 15 goals, breaking the Premier League record with 25 clean sheets.

Classic Jose Mourinho quote:

Jose Mourinho wrote:Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things.

If you are going to post some garbage about how Chelsea had the best players in the league, so they should've won the league, spare yourself already. Jose Mourinho brought his staff to Chelsea, setting the Premier League record for most points earned in a season. That's what you call real success.

Are you actually calling Rafael Benitez an inferior tactician? He was outstanding at Valencia, and brought his success to Liverpool Football Club. Petr Cech saved Chelsea in the first leg, but as the best goalkeeper in the world at the time, it was expected from him. Many missed chances were rued by Chelsea in the first leg, with pitiful finishing being their undoing in the leg. Without Damien Duff and Arjen Robben, they did not have their width to stretch the field, whereas Rafael Benitez, being the great tactician he is, exploited Glen Johnson's defensive incapabilities where Liverpool did most of their work. A tough away match in front of the Kop was not lost due to Jose Mourinho's tactics, but simply Rafael Benitez outsmarting him. Being unable to have natural width which was one of their key strengths with Damien Duff and Arjen Robben, a new strategy had to be implemented, which almost worked. Chelsea defended well, but they could not crack Liverpool's own defense, who was resolute in the physical game. Eidur Gudjohnsen missed a great opportunity late in the match which could have sent Chelsea to the final with the away-goal, but that is hardly due to Jose Mourinho failing. That's just stupidity on your part.

Lord Spencer wrote:Inter:
You go to the strongest and richest team in a league struggling from the corruption scandal of two years ago. Your successor has managed to win the league two times already. You closest opponents just came in from Serie B, or are shadows of their former selves. What the frak can you do except win the league, that Mou was so close to botching that one in the season Roma were so close to get it is insane. That Mou managed to get only 2nd in a group containing Werder Bremen, Panthinaikos, and Anthoresis by one point just to get dumped my Manchester is also insane. Given the talent Inter has, Mou was sure in to compete for the CL.

Which he did with inter in 2010, and they won. This is the most recent Mou victory, and is the showcase which Mou fans point to show Mou's genius. They don't mention: Julio Ceasar, Lucio, Walter the wall Samuel, Cambiasso, Maicon, Sneijder, Eto, Milito, and the immortal Zannetti. The fact that all those players hit their prime at the same time means nothing to them. The fact that Mou showed no sign of tactical use other than defending deap and then counter attacking means nothing to them as well. That Inter beat Barca with the most basic tools of football is of no consequence.

Inter's CL is not a show of master class tactics, it is a show of how grit, determination, and team effort wins trophies. How Mou gets away with all the credit for such a victory is beyond me, especially when coaches like Pep are ridiculed for "succeeding because of their players". Inter's win against Barca in the San Siro was the only show of real tactical skill by Mou in all his years, and instead of carrying away with it he reverted to the tortoise formation (partially due to peak-a-boo though) in the camp nou.

It's like you think just having a great squad can win trophies. It doesn't. A team is only as good as its manager, and it does not matter whether the league is won on a goal in the last minute of stoppage time or if it is won due to Zlatan Ibrahimovic simply zlataning Parma the first match coming back from his knee injury for two months. What does matter is that Internazionale were in first place for 32 straight rounds, after their 4-1 rout against AS Roma.

If "defending deap [sic] and then counter attacking" is all you can do to describe Jose Mourinho's superb tactics during the 2009/2010 Champions League run for Internazionale, then you have no point in posting in a thread regarding tactics, really. There is more to a tactic and a strategy than a name given by the media. If you think that Jose Mourinho's victory over FC Barcelona was due to what was on the field, you are completely wrong. It's how he learned from the crushing 2-0 loss to FC Barcelona in the group stages which brought him to the conclusion that structured, zonal marking combined with a narrow playstyle and collapsed midfield was how to beat FC Barcelona.

Do not say that "Inter's win against Barca in the San Siro was the only show of real tactical skill by Mou in all his years". That completely invalidates any single point you have made in that useless post.

Lord Spencer wrote:Why do you Mou fans never credit the players, why do you believe Mou to be the sole reason for their victory?

Very long post proportional to how much spare time you have to waste and indirectly proportional to the quality of it, as well as a heap of verbal abuse you use towards other members who disagree with your apparently superior knowledge of football. Well done.

danyjr wrote:Very long post proportional to how much spare time you have to waste and indirectly proportional to the quality of it, as well as a heap of verbal abuse you use towards other members who disagree with your apparently superior knowledge of football. Well done.

Thank you.

PeerIess owned Lord spancer of newcastle and danvjr of barca...

That long post shut them up! ownage at its Best

Real Kandahar wrote:PeerIess owned Lord spancer of newcastle and danvjr of barca...

That long post shut them up! ownage at its Best

Maybe, just maybe, they haven't had a chance to respond yet? That though crossed your mind?

I think I can actually give PeerIess the Porto one, but Lord Spencer still has good points, and that one's up for debate.

I personally thought Lord Spencer was more convincing in the Chelsea and Inter portions. Also, if Mou is such a tactical genius for winning with Inter, how come no one says RDM is? They did the same thing and RDM's is arguably more impressive

It's how he learned from the crushing 2-0 loss to FC Barcelona in the group stages which brought him to the conclusion that structured, zonal marking combined with a narrow playstyle and collapsed midfield was how to beat FC Barcelona.

It's a good thing that he brought that to Madri--
...
Well shit.

EDIT: Upon further review I think LS takes a full sweep. Plus the personal insults are getting embarrassing. Saying Franchise and LS have no knowledge about football is ridiculous and I can't take you seriously.

great post peerIess

Nice to see that there still are very intelligent posters on this forum, thumbs up peerIess.

I have a question then. How can a tactical genius screw so many matches with low level tables with a squad he had free hands to shape the way he wanted the best?

And no injuries are not a reason, RM dropped points in the beginning when actually Barca had the worries with defense injuries.

eelir wrote:I have a question then. How can a tactical genius screw so many matches with low level tables with a squad he had free hands to shape the way he wanted the best?

And no injuries are not a reason, RM dropped points in the beginning when actually Barca had the worries with defense injuries.

Yes, because losing the occasional match to minnows who view the match as a cup final is impossible. You're never impervious to a loss. Even the closest [Juventus 2012, Ajax 1995] lost matches.

Jose Mourinho's time in Real Madrid is merely a fraction of his managing career. Why is it that he has so much more success in UEFA competition with FC Porto, Chelsea, and Internazionale compared to Real Madrid? They're obviously not better squads on paper, but football is not played on paper.

A talented team can win many matches, but a strong team that is receptive to tactics win trophies. Real Madrid is not a strong team anymore - they are a club built on talent that ultimately cannot shape themselves into a great team. Prime example is obviously Roman Abramovich with Chelsea, but there is a reason why FC Barcelona is such an outstanding team. Josep Guardiola tactically advanced on strategies implemented by Frank Rikaard. Tito Vilanova variated marginally from Josep Guardiola, but the simple philosophy is still the same: nullify weaknesses, and extend strengths.

CBarca wrote:I can't take you seriously.

Wow, I am so hurt. You can't take me seriously? What will I do?

Well Mou is in third year at RM, surely with all his power he gained at the club he could have overcome the weakness you talk about. And for your reference, RM is not loosing occasionally games from minnows, they are third in la liga table, they main play is hoof-ball. This is not a problem of the players!!! RM fans are constantly bragging about the deep squad! Could it be that the Only One finally came to a league where there are a lot of tactically adept coaches who are used to a technical footy and not just brute force and speed some other leagues play? Could these minnows discovered how to hurt an above average tactician, and he is lost as he did not have such experience before?

its not the 'occasional game' mate. this is real madrid worst start of a season in 30 years.

Yeah... our shiteness is historical so far lol.

peerIess wrote:

Lord Spencer wrote:The fact that Mou has such a cult like fan base is telling of the way the world works; a world that ignores facts and sensationalizes half-truths. Mou is not a magician, and his stint at Madrid is not a success. Anyone claiming that Mou is the best coach should read below and see how far wrong they are.

Lord Spencer wrote:Porto:

First of all, Porto winning the league is no big achievement. Porto and Benfica have the league title locked—especially Porto—that it does not require a genius to do so, and that whoever does so should have no claims of genius thrust into him.

So we can focus on the 2004 Cl. Porto qualified the second in their group after RM, they then face Manchester United, beating them by a one goal margin, then they comprehensively beaten Lyon, after which they faced Deportivo and beat them by a one goal margin. Finally, they won the CL by comprehensively beating Monaco. Many cite this campaign as proof of Mou's genius. Anyone doing so evidently did not watch the 2004 CL.

1- Man United were far from a strong team in 2004, they were a team barely racing with Arsenal in the BPL, and Deportivo were arguably a stronger side.
2- More importantly, that porto side were no scrubs: a team with the best Portuguese talent since Figo (Deco) and the strong defense of Paulo Farrera, Ricardo Carvalho, Jorge Costan, and Nuno Valente is not a scrub teams. They also had Maniche, Costinha, and Pedro Mendes at their prim as well. Deco was especially influential throughout the campaign.
3- This was a strange CL, where the arguably the strongest teams in the CL both has shocking performances against them (RM losing 3-1 to Monaco and the more shocking Milan 4-0 defeat to Deportivo). In fact both Monaco and Depor faced stronger opposition than Porto.

This victory was indeed an important one for Mou, and he is dully credited for, but why the frak no mention of the players is ever given by any Mou fan. I asked several about the name of Porto players to such fans, and many could not name a single one, and the few who could named only Deco or Carvalho.

I am not discrediting Mou for the victory, just know where the coach's influence ends when a victory is achieved. Also, while the Porto won the Cl, Mou did not show any particular tactical skill or knowledge. All matches were straightforward affair. So what we have is a strong team and a good coach and favorable circumstances. Porto winning the CL was not a miracle. Deportivo or Monaco winning the CL was more of a miracle given they had weaker sides.

Seriously? You've actually missed out on so many important things, skating over them as if they are irrelevant. What you wrote is essentially garbage.

Firstly, Jose Mourinho became the manager of FC Porto during the 2001/2002 season, in the January window. They were not even in a UEFA Cup position when Jose Mourinho arrived. After he became manager, he and FC Porto acquired 35 points out of a possible 45, including going on a 6 game winning streak to end the season, barely pipping past Benfica to be 3rd place in the Primeira. Your assumptions regarding the Primeira are pathetic and ignorant - before Jose Mourinho began his full first season in 2002/2003, FC Porto and Benfica did not win the Primeira for the past 3 years.

Regarding your player comments, those are laughable. It's obvious you did not watch the Primeira in the past, but I don't really blame you. You want to know something?


That is the lineup that FC Porto fielded in the 2004 UEFA Champions League final. Substitutes were Pedro Emanuel, Dmitri Alenichev, and Benni McCarthy.

]b]Vitor Baia - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.[/b]
Jorge Costa - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Ricardo Carvalho - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Costinha - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Nuno Valente - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Deco - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Derlei - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Maniche - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Carlos Alberto - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Paulo Ferreira - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Pedro Mendes - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Pedro Emanuel - purchased by Jose Mourinho.
Dmitri Alenichev - Porto player before Jose Mourinho.
Benni McCarthy - purchased by Jose Mourinho.

This was a team hardly filled with the best Portuguese players since Luis Figo. A few were great players, the rest were average before and after Jose Mourinho. The fact that you think Paulo Ferreira and Nuno Valente were great defenders pre-Mourinho is laughable - when they placed for Setúbal and Leiria they hardly achieved any acclaim compared to what they earned during the Jose Mourinho-era. Don't make me laugh about Maniche, Costa, and Pedro Mendes. They were at the top of their game DUE to Jose Mourinho, the same way Ferreira and Valente were heralded as top fullbacks yet when they made the move to a tougher league they collapsed defensively.

Lord Spencer wrote:Many cite this campaign as proof of Mou's genius. Anyone doing so evidently did not watch the 2004 CL.

FC Porto played a completely different style of football compared to Internazionale and Chelsea under Jose Mourinho. They were known for their pressing, attacking play which was built on flexibility with an extremely strong core of Carvalho-Costa-Costinha. Against Olympique Lyon, the two-legged tie was known for its aggressive attacking and open play, which FC Porto won 4-2 on aggregate. Then, against Deportivo La Coruna, they molded into an extremely defensive side to thwart the attacking threats of Diego Tristan and co., winning away at the Riazor, where Deportivo was brilliant against AC Milan, winning 4-0. Which lead to the Champions League final, where FC Porto conclusively destroyed AS Monaco. FC Porto completely dominated the 442 that was played by Monaco, with the aggressive 433 that won the key midfield battle which opened up gaps in AS Monaco's defense to exploit. With a quick goal, they simply defended and attacked on the break, scoring 2 decisive 2nd half goals to win 3-0.

The fact you think the matches were straight-forward shows how precise Jose Mourinho's tactics were. To defeat multiple opponents in a cup competition, where you mold and shape the squad to negate the opponents' strengths and greaten your strengths was obviously swept by you, seeing as how you may have no recollection of the matches at all.

FC Porto won the treble in the two full seasons in which Jose Mourinho was manager. The year after he left, FC Porto did not win the league title, nor did they win a domestic cup, nor did they win a European cup. FC Porto brought in players like Thiago Silva, Leandro, Ibson, Diego, Luis Fabiano, Quaresma, Raul Meireles, Helder Postiga, Pepe, and Seitaridis - players who gelled together after a full season and dominated the Primeira.

Good coach then He was the best in the world by massive margins at that time, even better than Arsene Wenger, who truly had a squad who was better than his own managing abilities.

Lord Spencer wrote:Chelsea

Imagine you have the strongest most expensive team in the league, your closest rival just sold their best players to accommodate building their new stadium, and the second closest rival is facing their biggest slump since the 1990s. Would any manager not win the league? FFS, Avram grant managed to get 2nd with that team. Fact is, Chelsea were second before Mou came, and with Mou came several star players as well. Even though, the core of that team was made and molded by Ranieri. So Mou comes in to the strongest richest team in the league, sitting into another person's work, and he is suddenly heralded as a genius coach. What logic is that.

Simply put, Mou's arena to prove himself was the CL. Where he got twice outsmarted by an arguably weaker team (Liverpool), and according to Mou fans a much inferior tactician (Rapha Benitez). It was his failure in the CL (which was predicted in the 3rd year as well) and his wavering results in the league that prompted trigger ginger to sack him. How Mou turned his sacking into a case of martyrdom is a lesson in marketing that should be taught in business schools. The fact that Nobody manager Avram Grant did better with Chelsea in the CL than Mou accentuates Mou's failure in that regard.

What genius if any did we see from Mou in Chelsea? Was it the titles that had little to no competition with Arsenal selling their players and Man United just recovering from their slump? Or was it the CL failure?

What we saw in Chelsea was a competent coach using the superior team to win a title, then failing to tactically use that superiority to win in Europe. That is exactly what it was, and yet Mou is being heralded as a tactical messiah by the English press. And we got him telling the whole world how Special he is.

In the 2003/2004 season, Chelsea almost obsessively played the 442 and small variants of it. Arsenal went undefeated in the 2003/2004 season. When Jose Mourinho arrived, guess what he did? He completely changed the tactical outlook of the Chelsea side, bringing a 433 variant that brought out the best of Claude Makelele, Frank Lampard, Michael Essien, and Joe Cole. Chelsea lost one match during the entire 2004/2005 season, a shock 1-0 away loss to Manchester City in which Nicolas Anelka scored the game winning penalty. Chelsea drew less games, won more games, scored more goals, and conceded a record-low 15 goals, breaking the Premier League record with 25 clean sheets.

Classic Jose Mourinho quote:

Jose Mourinho wrote:Look, if I have a triangle in midfield – Claude Makelele behind and two others just in front – I will always have an advantage against a pure 4-4-2 where the central midfielders are side by side. That’s because I will always have an extra man. It starts with Makelele, who is between the lines. If nobody comes to him he can see the whole pitch and has time. If he gets closed down it means one of the two other central midfielders is open. If they are closed down and the other team’s wingers come inside to help, it means there is space now for us on the flank, either for our own wingers or for our full-backs. There is nothing a pure 4-4-2 can do to stop things.

If you are going to post some garbage about how Chelsea had the best players in the league, so they should've won the league, spare yourself already. Jose Mourinho brought his staff to Chelsea, setting the Premier League record for most points earned in a season. That's what you call real success.

Are you actually calling Rafael Benitez an inferior tactician? He was outstanding at Valencia, and brought his success to Liverpool Football Club. Petr Cech saved Chelsea in the first leg, but as the best goalkeeper in the world at the time, it was expected from him. Many missed chances were rued by Chelsea in the first leg, with pitiful finishing being their undoing in the leg. Without Damien Duff and Arjen Robben, they did not have their width to stretch the field, whereas Rafael Benitez, being the great tactician he is, exploited Glen Johnson's defensive incapabilities where Liverpool did most of their work. A tough away match in front of the Kop was not lost due to Jose Mourinho's tactics, but simply Rafael Benitez outsmarting him. Being unable to have natural width which was one of their key strengths with Damien Duff and Arjen Robben, a new strategy had to be implemented, which almost worked. Chelsea defended well, but they could not crack Liverpool's own defense, who was resolute in the physical game. Eidur Gudjohnsen missed a great opportunity late in the match which could have sent Chelsea to the final with the away-goal, but that is hardly due to Jose Mourinho failing. That's just stupidity on your part.

Lord Spencer wrote:Inter:
You go to the strongest and richest team in a league struggling from the corruption scandal of two years ago. Your successor has managed to win the league two times already. You closest opponents just came in from Serie B, or are shadows of their former selves. What the frak can you do except win the league, that Mou was so close to botching that one in the season Roma were so close to get it is insane. That Mou managed to get only 2nd in a group containing Werder Bremen, Panthinaikos, and Anthoresis by one point just to get dumped my Manchester is also insane. Given the talent Inter has, Mou was sure in to compete for the CL.

Which he did with inter in 2010, and they won. This is the most recent Mou victory, and is the showcase which Mou fans point to show Mou's genius. They don't mention: Julio Ceasar, Lucio, Walter the wall Samuel, Cambiasso, Maicon, Sneijder, Eto, Milito, and the immortal Zannetti. The fact that all those players hit their prime at the same time means nothing to them. The fact that Mou showed no sign of tactical use other than defending deap and then counter attacking means nothing to them as well. That Inter beat Barca with the most basic tools of football is of no consequence.

Inter's CL is not a show of master class tactics, it is a show of how grit, determination, and team effort wins trophies. How Mou gets away with all the credit for such a victory is beyond me, especially when coaches like Pep are ridiculed for "succeeding because of their players". Inter's win against Barca in the San Siro was the only show of real tactical skill by Mou in all his years, and instead of carrying away with it he reverted to the tortoise formation (partially due to peak-a-boo though) in the camp nou.

It's like you think just having a great squad can win trophies. It doesn't. A team is only as good as its manager, and it does not matter whether the league is won on a goal in the last minute of stoppage time or if it is won due to Zlatan Ibrahimovic simply zlataning Parma the first match coming back from his knee injury for two months. What does matter is that Internazionale were in first place for 32 straight rounds, after their 4-1 rout against AS Roma.

If "defending deap [sic] and then counter attacking" is all you can do to describe Jose Mourinho's superb tactics during the 2009/2010 Champions League run for Internazionale, then you have no point in posting in a thread regarding tactics, really. There is more to a tactic and a strategy than a name given by the media. If you think that Jose Mourinho's victory over FC Barcelona was due to what was on the field, you are completely wrong. It's how he learned from the crushing 2-0 loss to FC Barcelona in the group stages which brought him to the conclusion that structured, zonal marking combined with a narrow playstyle and collapsed midfield was how to beat FC Barcelona.

Do not say that "Inter's win against Barca in the San Siro was the only show of real tactical skill by Mou in all his years". That completely invalidates any single point you have made in that useless post.

Lord Spencer wrote:Why do you Mou fans never credit the players, why do you believe Mou to be the sole reason for their victory?

Wow, it is obvious why you are a big fan of Mou, both of you lack class.

Oh well, lol as mush you like to deflect the argument, I ill reply to what you said. First, I will restate my thesis: Mou is a good coach, but he is not a genius.

* My "assumptions" regarding the Primevara are historical facts. Both clubs have the largest sets of fans currently, and both have the largest economical strength. It is not as controlled by the two as in La Liga, but they are still the top dogs. That either of them didn't win in the last 3 years is irrelevant, Valencia won the La Liga twice in a row but then RM and Barca resumed their dichotomy

* So basically Mou has a good eye of talent. And he can get the best of his players. What else is new, those are his greatest strengths, never said he was not a good coach. Also, Maniche was a really important player for both Porto and Pourtegal, and while the rest (except Deco and Carvalho) were not WC players, they were not scrubs either.

*As for the tactical side in the Porto CL victory, it was the highlight of Mou's career. But it was not a tactical masterclass by any stretch, the biggest football aficionados wouldn't say it was. That Porto beat inferior sides to them is hardly surprising.

* "Best by large Margins", seriously. For success in two years, he suddenly becomes the best coach. How in hell can you arrive to such a conclusion from a mere two years. And you lol and facepalm at me, seriously mate.

*****************

* So, by being in the richest club, and having the strongest players with the highest salaries, and you expect Chelsea to lose the league. Hello, we are talking about the year Arsenal sold their invincible and United were still scrubs. A scrub coach would have won with that team, a scrub coach managed to go to the CL final and get 2nd with that team two years of its prime. I am not calling Rafa an inferior tactician, I obviously believe he is the better tactician (although Mou is a better coach overall), I am just refrencing a popular opinion that Mou is a better tactician than Rafa.

Sorry mate, but this argument is not garbage just because you say so. Chelsea could have played any formation and they would have fraking won. Ranieri basically set the stage for any coach to come up and succeed with that squad.

Losing to Rafa is no shame, it just shows how Mou's tactics is not his strong suit. And if being outsmarted is not failing what is failing then.

*************************************

*A team just being as good as its coach is simply not true. Chelsea won the CL with DM at the helm. Chelsea went to the CL final and got 2nd place with Avram Grant in the bench. And genius coach's won nothing with their teams from the start of football. A coach's influence is never greater than the influence of the players. And if being saved by Zlatan a proof of WC coaching, then Allegri is a WC coach.

Mou's best ability in his time in Inter was building the team, buying Millito and offloading Zlatan was a work of genius. He bought Snijder and yet did not give him as much job as Ibra. He made sure the team became a team to the deapest sense of the word. That is what Mou is best at, building and setting up a team.

That Inter won the scudettos was no surprise, if they lost them it would have been seen as a shock. The rest were simply not close to their level. In the CL, Mou got outsmarted once. He made sure the team had no ubber superstar, and they managed to get it done. It was a team loaded with defensive talent, that the won the CL is not surprising, that they won it playing defensively is not genius. Only a fool of a coach would attempt to play anything not defensive with that Inter.

Of course Inter's tactics were not sitting deep and hitting back. It was a classic neo cataneccio style that was not invented by Mou. That he correctly used it testament to his skill. But when did I say that Mou was garbage. He is not, he is a good coach, and among the best in the business currently. He just not the best, nor is he a tactical genius.

And you continue to lol when faced with the question of who is more important, the players or the manager. Frankly, no manager other than Otto Rehagle and few others could produce results with mediocre players.

Frankly, if you can't see the difference between saying that Mou is a good manager and saying that he is garbage, you should not be posting at all.

Real Kandahar wrote:PeerIess owned Lord spancer of newcastle and danvjr of barca...

That long post shut them up! ownage at its Best

Your reputation clearly shows who's renown for 'getting owned' so talk for yourself. Anyway, I wasn't arguing with OP, if you read my post you'd know it didn't have anything to do with argument between the scouse and the geordie.

And danyjr of Barça. Oh yeah, I love 'em

Another great post LS and the class you show while doing reminds me of why I regard you as a top poster.

peerIess wrote:

CBarca wrote:I can't take you seriously.

Wow, I am so hurt. You can't take me seriously? What will I do?

Pls go

Come back when you shrink that gigantic ego of yours and maybe listen and learn to people more knowledgeable and more suited to talking about football than you.

Mourinho for me is the best coach in the world at the moment, he has it all, a great tactician and fantastic motivator. Real Madrid has struggled this season but judge him at the end of the season. I remember similar debates about how awful he was as a manager in the 2009/2010 season with Inter where they barely scrapped out of the group stage and at some point in time Inter looked like losing the title to Roma. What happened at the end of the season? A treble.

For me what makes Mourinho a legend is the extra things that people chose to ignore, just take a look a the EPL, there 4 managers currently whose careers were heavily influenced by Mourinho; Steve Clark, Brendan Rodger, Villas Boas and Alan Pardew.

Pardew when he when he was out of coaching following his sacking at West Ham used to spend a lot of time with Mourinho, according to him Mourinho had the greatest influence on his coaching career. The height of his career was last year when he got Newcastle in 5th place.

The core of the team he built at Chelsea went on to win the CL, League, and a host of other titles and coming within a spot kick away from winning another CL. If he was to be given the free hand to operate at Real, the sky would be the limit for the team.

CBarca wrote:Come back when you shrink that gigantic ego of yours and maybe listen and learn to people more knowledgeable and more suited to talking about football than you.

Settle down.

A free hand? He rules Madrid like no other coach I have ever seen.

No coach has been allowed to pull the kind of things he had pulled at that club, even to the point of ousting legends in his favour. He hasnt been restricted in any way whatsoever.

He has hand picked players his entire career minus Shevchenko, made some excellent choices and made some bad ones.

This is the problem here. Not one person is saying he is a bad coach, or even just a average...everyone says he is a good coach or even a great coach.

However, he isnt flawless like his biggest fans seem to think so...but of course its easier to stick your head into the sand when speaking of your hero's.

Tactical genius is by far the biggest issue I have with his fans. I have never seen a supposed genius out thought as often as him. He is merely decent tactically, has some good points and has some bad points.

No shame in it, but for god's sake open your eyes.

The Franchise wrote:A free hand? He rules Madrid like no other coach I have ever seen.

No coach has been allowed to pull the kind of things he had pulled at that club, even to the point of ousting legends in his favour. He hasnt been restricted in any way whatsoever.

He has hand picked players his entire career minus Shevchenko, made some excellent choices and made some bad ones.

This is the problem here. Not one person is saying he is a bad coach, or even just a average...everyone says he is a good coach or even a great coach.

However, he isnt flawless like his biggest fans seem to think so...but of course its easier to stick your head into the sand when speaking of your hero's.

Tactical genius is by far the biggest issue I have with his fans. I have never seen a supposed genius out thought as often as him. He is merely decent tactically, has some good points and has some bad points.

No shame in it, but for god's sake open your eyes.

Exactly.

100% agree.

Also.. mou is a short term coach.. he won't build a sustainable team over many years..

Real Kandahar wrote:PeerIess owned Lord spancer of newcastle and danvjr of barca...

That long post shut them up! ownage at its Best

You don't read, do you? If you did, you wouldn't have made that comment.

danyjr wrote:

Real Kandahar wrote:PeerIess owned Lord spancer of newcastle and danvjr of barca...

That long post shut them up! ownage at its Best

Your reputation clearly shows who's renown for 'getting owned' so talk for yourself. Anyway, I wasn't arguing with OP, if you read my post you'd know it didn't have anything to do with argument between the scouse and the geordie.

And danyjr of Barça. Oh yeah, I love 'em

Read this one clearly before you make another mistake...

The Franchise wrote:However, he isnt flawless like his biggest fans seem to think so...but of course its easier to stick your head into the sand when speaking of your hero's.

Tactical genius is by far the biggest issue I have with his fans. I have never seen a supposed genius out thought as often as him. He is merely decent tactically, has some good points and has some bad points.

There is no flawless manager - you would have to be an idiot to think there is. Every manager commits errors, it's just that some managers do not have the same quality that Jose Mourinho has. Who is better than Jose Mourinho? Detractors merely look at his tenure at Real Madrid, dismissing his greatness at FC Porto, his achievements at Chelsea, and his brilliance at Internazionale.

He is the best tactician in the world. Managers are judged like goalkeepers - their performances at critical stages are what separates the good from the great. Jose Mourinho has a catalogue of moments since 2002 that is peerless.

2002 - away 1-0 victory vs Austria Wien [I was there]
2003 - away 2-0 victory vs Panathinaikos
2003 - home 4-1 victory vs Lazio
2003 - 3-2 victory vs Celtic [UEFA Cup final, Derlei x2]
2003 - away 1-1 draw vs Real Madrid
2003 - away 3-2 victory vs OM
2003 - home 2-0 victory vs Benfica
2004 - home 2-1 victory vs Manchester United
2004 - home 2-0 victory vs Olympique Lyonnais
2004 - away 2-2 draw vs Olympique Lyonnais
2004 - away 1-0 victory vs Deportivo La Coruna
2004 - 3-0 victory vs AS Monaco [Champions League final]
2004 - home 3-1 victory vs FC Porto
2005 - home 4-2 victory vs FC Barcelona
2005 - home 4-2 victory vs Bayern Munich
2005 - away 1-0 victory vs Liverpool Football Club
2005 - away 3-1 victory vs Manchester United
2005 - 3-2 victory vs Liverpool Football Club [League Cup final, ET x2]
2005 - away 4-1 victory vs Liverpool Football Club
2006 - home 3-0 victory vs Manchester United [Premier League clincher]
2006 - away 2-2 draw vs FC Barcelona [Deco, Gudjohnsen]
2007 - 2-1 victory vs Arsenal [League Cup final, Drogba x2]
2008 - away 4-0 victory vs AS Roma
2009 - home 0-0 draw vs FC Barcelona
2009 - away 4-0 victory vs AC Milan
2010 - both CL legs vs Chelsea
2010 - away 1-0 victory vs CSKA Moskva
2010 - both CL legs vs Barcelona
2010 - 2-0 victory vs Bayern Munich [Champions League final, Milito x2]
2010 - 1-0 victory vs AS Roma [Coppa Italia, Milito]

I doubt very few managers could boast a catalogue of decisive matches like Jose Mourinho has, pre-Real Madrid. Probably Sir Alex Ferguson, maybe Pep Guardiola within his 4 years. I do know that I missed out on a few matches, though.

The best tactician in the world had a team that certainly can rival Barcelona in terms of talent in the form of Madrid and it took him years and several humiliating defeats before he could top Barca a couple times.

And even then, this season he was scared against a 10 man, defenseless Barca and drew 2-2.

Now that same team is 18 points behind Barcelona, and 7 points behind 2nd place in 3rd.

I don't see how you can say he's the best tactician in the world when he has been destroyed by Pep tactically on a fairly regular basis

you should stop bringing barcelona into discussion, we are talking probably for one of the best set of players ever? if not the best..
whatever pep has done in making such a team exist is amazing, other than that we all saw that ANY coach can drive that team,
you go take that seat and you may even go on a winning streak

so who has stopped this barcelona these last years? other than mou none, none.. none.. and please dont say chelsea
fergie who supposedly is a legend and one of the ''best'' got battered in the final, would that ever happen to jose?
mou took a team that for years was being spanked by barca and eventually he organized them and maked them superior.. and im talking about head to head results..

he turned things arround on head to head results, doesnt matter how much time he needed as none has managed to beat THIS barca (not the chelsea way)