Re: Neymar Watch

by Bankz Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:22 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:How does whoscored go about defining what is a clear cut chance and what isn't?

by Bankz Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:25 pm

Harmonica wrote:
El Messico wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
That's paradoxal, as if you're shit finisher you must have many chance's to score many goals in relation.

Messi is marked every game, most marked player in history of the game, and most of his shots are usually blocked by defenders because it's number one priority against Barcelona. He doesn't get that many great chances anymore, he mostly has to create them himself from the midfield, where as Neymar is just waiting usually in open space. Also Neymar missed the only pen he shot this season, that's 0% conversion ratio.

Messi actually shouldn't have the goals he had this season, being the play-maker and controller of the team, he's breaking his dribbling and assists records and still providing over 50 goals. That's prime Messi for you.

If Messi was finishing like Neymar he would have about 20-30 goals this season.

Example of the team dynamic this season, Messi the 7th attacker

Don't have up-to-date stats for now, but whoscored released an infographic that showed that by the end of February, Messi was the player who missed the most clear-cut chances in La Liga. In 2013/14 also, he was the player who missed the most clear-cut chances in La Liga.

I also saw a stat this week that showed that Neymar had a 33% shot conversion rate, which I'm guessing is better than Messi's.
That however isn't paradoxal as Messi creates most of his own chances, where as forward average is about 80%, Messi has less than 50% directly assisted goals. Neymar in often even fails to get shot in, which is why they aren't even registered. It's harder to dribble from midfield to get shot in against defender wall being marked all the time, than waiting service in the defender line and open spaces and so on...

by Bankz Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:27 pm

El Messico wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
El Messico wrote:

That doesn't matter, as this discussion has been about shit finishing. Messi is still missing the most clear-cut chances, which is a result of poor finishing.

If Neymar can't get a shot away, that means it probably wasn't a clear chance to begin with. Every Messi through pass is not a clear chance.
Messi is doing everything else on the field, Neymar isn't, his purpose is scoring goals this season. Neymar isn't using his energy/form in related stuff, he's concentrating on goal scoring, and thus he should be doing a lot better. If you have to dribble from the midfield and create clear cut chance to yourself, and miss it, is better finishing than waiting service in open space and missing it, because you had more overall energy/form to score it in relation.

But if you look at the reddit link I was talking about, a lot of the chances Messi is missing do not involve him running from midfield and dribbling to create. Moreover, Messi averages 8 km a game whereas Neymar is averaging more like 10-11.5 km. Not too sure who is supposed to be more tired

fraud getting owned hard.

by billy_gr Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:53 pm

After many years Barca is finally having people other than messi who contribute to goalscoring and fanboys are losing their shit instead of being happy for the team.

by M99 Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 pm

Muppet wrote:This thread is nuts. Neymar has Messi and to a lesser extent Suarez to thank for his inflated stats this season. He's far inferior to both. Anyone who can't see that is just bloody clueless.

So anyone who thinks Neymar is not a flat track bully is bloody clueless?

Sure thing mate.

by MaraVilla Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:43 pm

his stats are far from flat track bully Laughing

by Gil Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:56 pm

Neymar is far from a flat-track bully. He's most definitely a big game player. The only argument that can be used against him is the fact he would score half the goals he has this season without Messi.

by Winter is Coming Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:09 pm

He was scoring good amount of goals in Santos (inb4 that is the Brazilian league comments), he has an amazing game to goal ratio for Brazil while carrying like the likes of Fred/Jo/Hulk, having Dante/Luiz has his sides defenders and a midfield of Fernandinho/Oscar/Paulinho Laughing

. Has a good game to goal ratio in actually international tournament.

Does he benefit from Suarez/Messi? Yes, just as they both benefit from him, just as Messi benefited from prime Xavi/Iniesta/Villa/Pedro/Eto'o, just as CR benefits/benefited from Di Maria/Ozil/Modric/Kroos/Benz, and so on.

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:14 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:He was scoring good amount of goals in Santos (inb4 that is the Brazilian league comments), he has an amazing game to goal ratio for Brazil while carrying like the likes of Fred/Jo/Hulk, having Dante/Luiz has his sides defenders and a midfield of Fernandinho/Oscar/Paulinho . Has a good game to goal ratio in actually international tournament.

Does he benefit from Suarez/Messi? Yes, just as they both benefit from him, just as Messi benefited from prime Xavi/Iniesta/Villa/Pedro/Eto'o, just as CR benefits/benefited from Di Maria/Ozil/Modric/Kroos/Benz, and so on.

I always cringe when somebody brings up record in Brazilian football, Robinho was exactly same on Brazil and then the first season in Europe. What's different that he didn't have prime Messi moved to as resident playmaker for him.

And Neymar's national record consist mostly Harlem Globetrotters tour, cherrypicked friendlies against teams that rested for qualifiers.

by jibers Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:15 pm

Neymar a poacher...now I've seen it all...

by Gil Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:17 pm

jibers wrote:Neymar a poacher...now I've seen it all...

Ronaldo is also a poacher. Most of his goals are assisted. It isn't neccesarily a bad thing.

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:19 pm

Gil wrote:
jibers wrote:Neymar a poacher...now I've seen it all...

Ronaldo is also a poacher. Most of his goals are assisted. It isn't neccesarily a bad thing.

I've to say Neymar atm reminds more of Cronaldo than Messi, so you're right on there.

by Winter is Coming Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:22 pm

He has goals against Argentina, Germany, France, Italy, Colombia, Spain, Chile, Croatia, hardly Harlem Globetrotters and this while again having Fred/Jo/Hulk as his front line and GOAT midfield of Fernandinho/Oscar/Paulinho I'd say the record is impressive with this.

Sanchez/Pedro didn't benefit from Messi now did they? So what make you think Robinho would? Its not like Messi didn't lay off passes to the other two. Also Tello/Afellay/Cuenca.

by Ganso Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:23 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:He was scoring good amount of goals in Santos (inb4 that is the Brazilian league comments), he has an amazing game to goal ratio for Brazil while carrying like the likes of Fred/Jo/Hulk, having Dante/Luiz has his sides defenders and a midfield of Fernandinho/Oscar/Paulinho . Has a good game to goal ratio in actually international tournament.

Does he benefit from Suarez/Messi? Yes, just as they both benefit from him, just as Messi benefited from prime Xavi/Iniesta/Villa/Pedro/Eto'o, just as CR benefits/benefited from Di Maria/Ozil/Modric/Kroos/Benz, and so on.
I always cringe when somebody brings up record in Brazilian football, Robinho was exactly same on Brazil

Please shut it.

by Valkyrja Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:23 pm

Gil wrote:
jibers wrote:Neymar a poacher...now I've seen it all...

Ronaldo is also a poacher. Most of his goals are assisted. It isn't neccesarily a bad thing.

Most of the goals scored in football are assisted tbh

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:28 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:He has goals against Argentina, Germany, France, Italy, Colombia, Spain, Chile, Croatia, hardly Harlem Globetrotters and this while again having Fred/Jo/Hulk as his front line and GOAT midfield of Fernandinho/Oscar/Paulinho I'd say the record is impressive with this.

Sanchez/Pedro didn't benefit from Messi now did they? So what make you think Robinho would? Its not like Messi didn't lay off passes to the other two. Also Tello/Afellay/Cuenca.

Who cares against who he has goals? Brazil is young, mobile and unpredictable team, of course they will score goals in nt-football. It isn't impressive.

Snachez and Pedro didn't have the career as Robinho had before moving to Europe, why the hell would you need to compare them? Neymar and Robinho had almost 1:1 career in NT, in Brazil and the first season in Europe. What changed after that, Messi moved even more to the side of playmaking and conducting the play, and he's happy to do so as Neymar is good enough player to be supported as a goal scorer, and it's better for the team.

But again Neymar's finishing this season hasn't been good, it's easily and logically argued with concrete evidence. You can direct the discussion where ever corners you think will hide that, but truth will always win, by my hands.

by farfan Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:34 pm

Robinho was exactly the same ? Laughing

minus the fact that he played next to the likes of Kaka , Juninho ,Adriano , Ronaldinho of course Laughing

Robinho was never the focal point of Brazil nor did he ever carry the whole team on his shoulders like Neymar has been doing for the last 3 years .

lol at the guy who fapped to messi scoring against the likes of iran in a star studded team dismissing Neymar's undeniable contribution to his NT .

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:37 pm

farfan wrote:Robinho was exactly the same ?
minus the fact that he played next to the likes of Kaka , Juninho ,Adriano , Ronaldinho of course

Robinho was never the focal point of Brazil nor did he ever carry the whole team on his shoulders like Neymar has been doing for the last 3 years .

lol at the guy who fapped to messi scoring against the likes of iran in a star studded team dismissing Neymar's undeniable contribution to his NT .

Robinho Golden Ball/Boot and champion of CA07 without any of those players. rofl

by Gil Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:38 pm

His NT stats are inflated tbh. Shame he'll break Pele's record.

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:41 pm

Gil wrote:His NT stats are inflated tbh. Shame he'll break Pele's record.

Pele is the king of inflated stats tbh.

by Winter is Coming Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:43 pm

Messi/Ronaldo don't score as much on international games they're considered flops. Anyone scores on international games inflated stats...

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:47 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Messi/Ronaldo don't score as much on international games they're considered flops. Anyone scores on international games inflated stats...

Welcome to the world of everything is against you.

Messi hasn't played Harlem Globetrotters tour with Argentina like Neymar has, he has flown to every hard as nails qualifier game from Europe, to a completely different culture where he was raised football wise, to play every game as an away game. Neymar nor Cronaldo hasn't. There's a clear difference, other stats are more inflated than others.

by Ganso Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:12 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Winter is Coming wrote:Messi/Ronaldo don't score as much on international games they're considered flops. Anyone scores on international games inflated stats...
Welcome to the world of everything is against you.

Messi hasn't played Harlem Globetrotters tour with Argentina like Neymar has,

Yeah, Messi has been playing against all top NTs and demolishing every single one of them Laughing

Argentina's WC alone was a Harlem Globetrotters tour ffs Laughing

I'm not even going to discuss Messi's NT career with you because I have seen it before and I don't want to read how glorious it has been.

by futbol Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:16 pm

Messi carried Germany to a World Cup tbh.

http://gfycat.com/EarnestYellowishBellfrog

hmm

by McAgger Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 pm

lmao now mentioning Harlem Globetrotters is thing in GL Laughing

by Harmonica Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:23 pm

You really want to drag Messi in this discussion do you? Very Happy

@23 Messi > Neymar for NT

WCU20 Golden Ball/Boot > SA Youth Golden Boot (Brazil won WCU20 even without Neymar)
Olympic Gold Medal > Olympic Silver Medal
CA07 runner-up > CA11 8th
WC10 5th > WC14 4th
WCQ = Confederations Cup

And I mean the relative performance's not the team success.

And Messi did this all flying from Europe to another culture and back, when Neymar was grown in Brazil as his home country.

It's not close, in any perspective.

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