[BOOKS] Game of Thrones for the Literate

TheRedStag wrote:Do you guys ever go on Westeros website. Some serious posters over there with encyclopedic knowledge.

since i finished DwD , i check often and i usualy enjoy my time reading many of the discussions.Whilst a lot of interesting stuff are said in there , many posters tend to give too much "life" to some of their theories or notions . There are some which have some foundation , true , but most of them seem far fetched .

'Theories for the sake of theories' , to be honest. There's no point or gain , for Martin to have THAT much material in an already huge storyline with , admittedly , enough unnecessary material. That's not to say i didn't appreciate it , because i certainly did to the last word . But fact is , he could have kept some of it out.. Let's just say some characters's story just jog on seemingly without end and some of these characters purpose and story could/should have been already done with.

Dante wrote:

TheRedStag wrote:Do you guys ever go on Westeros website. Some serious posters over there with encyclopedic knowledge.

since i finished DwD , i check often and i usualy enjoy my time reading many of the discussions.Whilst a lot of interesting stuff are said in there , many posters tend to give too much "life" to some of their theories or notions . There are some which have some foundation , true , but most of them seem far fetched .

'Theories for the sake of theories' , to be honest. There's no point or gain , for Martin to have THAT much material in an already huge storyline with , admittedly , enough unnecessary material. That's not to say i didn't appreciate it , because i certainly did to the last word . But fact is , he could have kept some of it out.. Let's just say some characters's story just jog on seemingly without end and some of these characters purpose and story could/should have been already done with.  

Some proper crackpot theories alright but some very well laid out ones too.

I think its a v good site. When I finished the books the first time, I went on that site and found out so much stuff I missed the first time round.

While you guys are waiting 10 years for the next book to be released, check out the superior Malazan series.  

TheRedStag wrote:

Some proper crackpot theories alright but some very well laid out ones too.

I think its a v good site. When I finished the books the first time, I went on that site and found out so much stuff I missed the first time round.

Definitely , it's a great site . As i said , i enjoy it when i pay a visit , regardless if i agree with what i read or not. Just , i am not buying most of the theories some , admittedly , great fans have to present. Like the one with the faceless men.. ok , it was nice to learn about the mysteries of that ancient order ; it was nice to watch Arya becoming dangerous , both in character and in skill , too. Though , it won't be nice to involve the FM with anything else , we already know why the exist and what they do . Why add more to that? Isn't that enough ?  

Let them stay in Braavos , giving the gift to those who ask it. No need to involve them with the others , or thrones , politics and what not. Many more theories i see this way and you'd be very right to say , 'well that's just your opinion' . Fine with me , however , we have very interesting storylines in ASOIAF already and more than interesting supportive characters to be content with or irritated that they still live.. I must admit , i am worried about the series at this point , simply because , the narrative is already difficult to follow for someone who hasn't a deep understanding of what's going on.

Add anything new out of the current "cosmos" we understand and it will become chaotic . There are storylines in ASOIAF that could have been seperate books imo. Whilst i definitely love it that we have so much material , i am not sure how much more room there is ..  the line from pleasure to burden is very close . Take for example what happened with Stannis. Begun as the man of justice , of ethics and morals. The experienced battle commander who people didn't love , but held as important and not to be taken lightly. Not long after his introduction , he begun losing it , then lost the battle of the Blackwater thus losing the Iron Throne . Devastated , he then continues on the wall , gains some interest back, but his main purpose in this story , is yet to be answered totaly , because he is playing the Game of Thrones .He will either win or he will die.

With so many new elements and characters introduced , like Aegon , the Martells , the Greyjoy brothers and obviously the Tyrells, the majority has lost interest in Stannis and he was (and is imo still) one of the top 2-3 baddasses in Westeros. Now everybody expect him to die and lose , because so much more important than Stannis and his cause happen in order for the majority to care for Stannis.

All i want from now on , is to find out that at least half of the current characters meet their fate , whatever that may be . And i want Stannis to do something huge in Winds. Even extinguish the Lannisters , even that. 5 books for an awesome character with a lot of power and personality on his hands and (imo) few to show with.

I don't think the majority have lost interest in Stannis at all. He's got the biggest group of fan boys along with the Starks. Stannis is a total boss and I think he will do something heroic in Winds (and will probably die doing it)

I know what your getting at in regards faceless men theories being too prominent and let me add to that "secret Targ" theories too.

Dante wrote:

M99 wrote:http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/156odh/spoilers_all_complete_analysis_of_the_blackfyre/

Really great analysis on Aegon possibly being a Blackfyre, both arguements for and arguements against given.

i've spent sometime reading some of the theories , the Blackfyre one as well. I must say , although it is definitely one of the most interesting and intriguing , i can't seem to get past the epilogue of DwD ; Simply because , Varys has not a single reason to lie to Kevan , at that point. Kevan is about to die and Varys tells him why , his reasons and the motive behind them. In that process , any Blackfyre conspiracy theory simply vanquished , imo always.

You'd say , there's the possibility of Varys being played by Illyrio. Varys must have ONE , at least ONE , ally . We know it's illyrio. Why ruin that? almost two decades of conspiracy , plots , actions and who knows what else and Illyrio is double playing Varys , his oldest friend ?For what , a dead branch of House Targaryen? seems legit. Some theorize about Illyrio's wife being Serra , who's not Serra but a Blackfyre , can't-recall-her-name-Blackfyre. A theory that in order to be proven legit , needs this Illyrio's wife theory. And where would all this Blackfyre conspiracy lead , let's say , storywise ? What does it serve in the end ? We've had 5 books telling the story of the Targaryens and how 'they' will win it back by fire and blood , only to one day find out a certain merchant and one clever bald man raised a rebel of a dead House to the Throne?

I just don't see it mate. Having all that said , there has to be something regarding the Blackfyres , because the writer did mention them more than once in the books. It's not 'Faegon' imo , but surely there must be something.

We've had 5 books telling the story of Daenerys and how 'she will win it back by fire and blood , only to one day find out a certain merchant and one clever bald man raised the supposedly dead for 18 years son of Rhaegar and heir to the Iron Throne? Aegon is either a fake or will die a horrible death before he ever seats on the throne, there is no way he is gonna get the Seven Kingdoms while Dany gets nothing. Barristan, Jaime and Stannis all say that Varys made Aerys more paranoid and madder, feeding him whispers on how Rhaegar plans to usurp him and take the throne ( ) and poisoned him beyond recovery and made him paranoid about just about everyone in Westeros. Why would Varys do this if he's such a die hard Targ loyalist? And regarding the scene with Kevan, that was the thing that convinced me Aegon is in fact real but I noticed in the link I posted, Varys never says Aegon 'Targaryen', he just says Aegon is not dead. Maybe that kid's name is Aegon Blackfyre? Aegon Blackfyre was the name of Daemon Blackfyre's son, the one who kickstarted the Blackfyre Rebellion. We'll see what happens.

Varys isn't a die-hard Targaryen loyalist. I truly believe that he's one of the few characters with good intentions, although he understands that you need to break a few eggs to make an omelet. He understands what it's like to live in poverty, with no friends or allies, and in Westeros the commonfolk play an especially thankless role; even more so during war time, which the lords and kings seem to perpetuate indefinitely.

No, Varys serves no house, he simply serves the people of the realm, and therefore the realm itself. And the best way to do that is to install worthy kings, regardless of where they come from. Varys would install a kitchen boy if it meant the commonfolk would see a more plentiful harvest and a safer kingdom. Aegon currently provides the best option, and who cares if he's a Targaryen or a Blackfyre? He's been trained to rule, through moral, religious, military and financial education. Aerys was a terrible ruler, provoking many houses and ruling over several different rebellions; making him more paranoid and eventually provoking him to action brought about his downfall, but the pieces made their own moves, and the suitable - and expected - replacement, the crown prince Raeghar, removed himself from the picture by kidnapping Lyanna Stark. Varys wanted a paranoid Aerys to provoke someone, not Rhaegar, and have the lords remove him and put the wise and benevolent son on the throne. Instead he got fat, lazy Robert and had to come up with a plan b.

Firenze wrote:While you guys are waiting 10 years for the next book to be released, check out the superior Malazan series.   

sup... Seven Hells!

TheRedStag wrote:I don't think the majority have lost interest in Stannis at all. He's got the biggest group of fan boys along with the Starks. Stannis is a total boss and I think he will do something heroic in Winds (and will probably die doing it)

I know what your getting at in regards faceless men theories being too prominent and let me add to that "secret Targ" theories too.

You're probably right about Stannis , although.. it's just that a lot of the discussions or major events/facts doesn't have to do with Stannis anymore. Anyhow , perhaps i didn't put that right in the first place. It's not that he doesn't have his 'fans' anymore , it's that even his fans expect him to die , because almost anyone expects him to lose the game of thrones. Although i must say , having the Iron Bank at your side and claiming the North for the Northmen ... If he's not dead by then , that will put him well back into the game. Ultimately though , Daenerys has dragons. He can't possibly win , but at least he can clear Westeros from the scum that is Boltons and Freys.

M99 wrote:

Dante wrote:

M99 wrote:http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/156odh/spoilers_all_complete_analysis_of_the_blackfyre/

Really great analysis on Aegon possibly being a Blackfyre, both arguements for and arguements against given.

i've spent sometime reading some of the theories , the Blackfyre one as well. I must say , although it is definitely one of the most interesting and intriguing , i can't seem to get past the epilogue of DwD ; Simply because , Varys has not a single reason to lie to Kevan , at that point. Kevan is about to die and Varys tells him why , his reasons and the motive behind them. In that process , any Blackfyre conspiracy theory simply vanquished , imo always.

You'd say , there's the possibility of Varys being played by Illyrio. Varys must have ONE , at least ONE , ally . We know it's illyrio. Why ruin that? almost two decades of conspiracy , plots , actions and who knows what else and Illyrio is double playing Varys , his oldest friend ?For what , a dead branch of House Targaryen? seems legit. Some theorize about Illyrio's wife being Serra , who's not Serra but a Blackfyre , can't-recall-her-name-Blackfyre. A theory that in order to be proven legit , needs this Illyrio's wife theory. And where would all this Blackfyre conspiracy lead , let's say , storywise ? What does it serve in the end ? We've had 5 books telling the story of the Targaryens and how 'they' will win it back by fire and blood , only to one day find out a certain merchant and one clever bald man raised a rebel of a dead House to the Throne?

I just don't see it mate. Having all that said , there has to be something regarding the Blackfyres , because the writer did mention them more than once in the books. It's not 'Faegon' imo , but surely there must be something.

We've had 5 books telling the story of Daenerys and how 'she will win it back by fire and blood , only to one day find out a certain merchant and one clever bald man raised the supposedly dead for 18 years son of Rhaegar and heir to the Iron Throne? Aegon is either a fake or will die a horrible death before he ever seats on the throne, there is no way he is gonna get the Seven Kingdoms while Dany gets nothing. Barristan, Jaime and Stannis all say that Varys made Aerys more paranoid and madder, feeding him whispers on how Rhaegar plans to usurp him and take the throne ( ) and poisoned him beyond recovery and made him paranoid about just about everyone in Westeros. Why would Varys do this if he's such a die hard Targ loyalist? And regarding the scene with Kevan, that was the thing that convinced me Aegon is in fact real but I noticed in the link I posted, Varys never says Aegon 'Targaryen', he just says Aegon is not dead. Maybe that kid's name is Aegon Blackfyre? Aegon Blackfyre was the name of Daemon Blackfyre's son, the one who kickstarted the Blackfyre Rebellion. We'll see what happens.

Agreed about Daenerys , though you seem to forget that if Aegon is who we have learned he is , he will marry Daenerys. Daenerys doesn't have to sit alone in the Iron Throne , nor will she. Aegon begun the conquer , Daenerys will finish it. They will wed after that. The plan was to marry Aegon to Daenerys in DwD , but for Tyrion . Ironicaly enough , even if he's a blackfyre , he's actualy half a Targaryen and House Blackfyre is no more. Still a Targaryen , so i don't see why Martin would make all that fuss with Blackfyres in the first place. From a writer's point of view , it's silly .

Something last about Rhaegar and Varys. Varys was with Aerys until he lost his wits. But even after that , he stayed true to his job , because otherwise he would be jogged on from the small council right away. This is very easily proven . If Varys had been "poisoning Aerys's mind" , then why he urged Aerys to keep his gates closed when Tywin arrived? At the crowning moment , so close from success , Varys offers solid advice to Aerys ? doesn't make sense to me , like at all , especialy when the war is almost lost at that point and Varys chooses to stand with the losers. We know this from Ser Barristan , that the rot begun with Varys . Barristan was never one to understand plots or politics in general , so he's opinion isn't that solid. Truth is , Varys did whisper to Aerys's mind , but was right to do so ; that he totaly lost it after a certain point , doesn't mean is Varys's fault. Aerys was never the great king to begin with , even when his mind was intact.

There are more. Jaime recalls the last words he had heard from Rhaegar , that when the war would be over , he would change things and set things aright , something like that. He knows that this would never happen with his father on the throne , so he would take it instead. One of those who conspired with him must be Varys , his actions tell us so. Rhaegar must have instructed Varys to protect his children if the war was lost and although Varys didn't save Rhaenys , he did save Aegon and we know how. He knew Rhaegar was a gallant man and would make a dutiful king , so after he saved Aegon , he made it his life's purpose to set a right king in the Iron Throne . Makes some sense to me.

The fact that Varys entered the Seven Kingdoms to serve the Targaryen dynasty , is enough to make Varys a loyalist. Varys is a Targaryen loyalist and wants the best for the realm as well. I don't see why the one should exclude the other or deminish it . The fact that he could and did shape Aegon for kingship in the best way possible , was the only way Varys saw to have a right king sitting the Throne and he was a Targaryen as well . Rhaegar Targaryen's son , the son of the man Varys believed would make a righy king , assuming he was on his side after Aerys lost it.The fact that he urged Aerys not to open his doors for Tywin , wasn't to keep Aerys on the throne , but to keep the Iron Throne under Targaryen rule until Rhaegar got back? It makes sense , doesn't it ?

As for Illyrio , he has debts of affection to repay and that is meant for Varys. Not to mention , he will certainly have great benefits and gains after both Aegon & Daenerys already know that without him , they would never presume to even think of sitting the Iron Throne. The irony in this is , is that we have so much solid background for Aegon to sit the Iron Throne , but for Daenerys who one day entered the House of the Undying and saw a vision about a cloth dragon amongst other past and future stuff ; so we must disregard everything that's been happening in front of our eyes , for a vision ? it's just my opinion you know and since this is epic fantasy , i could be very much wrong , but i find it so silly.

TheRedStag wrote:Do you guys ever go on Westeros website. Some serious posters over there with encyclopedic knowledge.

Yep, I go there once in a while. The site can be amazing and retarded at the same. Some of their stuff are really impressive, Bloodraven being Three Eyed Crow (confirmed by GRRM), the Hound being the gravedigger, Alleras being Sarella, interpretation of visions, but then again you have the grand faceless men conspiracy, Tyrion being Aerys' son, Podrick being Tyrion and Tysha's son, Davos is Azor Ahai, Varys is a faceless man and other nonsense.

Speaking of Faceless Men, what is Jaqen H'ghar up to? He is now on the Citadel as Pate, but why? Is he a Faceless Man gone rogue? Is he the one who killed Balon Greyjoy for Victarion?

M99 wrote:Speaking of Faceless Men, what is Jaqen H'ghar up to? He is now on the Citadel as Pate, but why? Is he a Faceless Man gone rogue? Is he the one who killed Balon Greyjoy for Victarion?

I'm thinking you meant Euron and not Victarion, but that would be an awesome twist if Victarion was actually in cahoots with Euron the whole time

I'd wager no, but then again it's too difficult to tell who is who with these Faceless Men. Maybe there's a religious undertone to this, seeing as how they have a different god. Up until now there's really been little info on it (unless you believe that Faceless Men conspiracy) - but anyway the Winds of Winter will probably see some HUGE religious stuff going down - there's the Oldtown story, the Faith Militant in power, probably more R'hllor things, and so on.

goonbrain wrote:-Lord Walder Frey(Martin pls. He lived enough)

No I'd bet anything on Walder Frey actually surviving the WHOLE series (somehow Stoneheart won't get to him)

Killing him off is too easy, Martin doesn't work that way. The way I see it, the Freys will be wiped out by a combination of things - internal politics, North remembers, Stoneheart + BWB, Blackfish, and so on. The Twins will either be sacked or captured. Walder Frey will live through all of this - for someone who spent three generations breeding the Freys like hamsters and building the Twins, seeing all those fall is a fate worse than death.

Speaking of the North.... is anyone else interested in Skagos (aka where Davos Seaworth is headed off to)? To me it just sounds like an urban myth, I mean srsly an island of cannibals being kept in check by the Starks this whole time? No, I'm sure that there's something else there, something we haven't seen yet. Hence why Rickon/Osha are probaly there.

Interesting theory: http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1pyh9f/spoilers_all_i_know_the_fate_of_jon_snow/

man I was just thinking about GoT last night, wondered how the next season is going to be before remembering that I've totally forgotten the plot of the rest of the GoT books, might have to do some exploring around AWOIAF to jog my memory

Well GRRM confirmed Winds Of Winter ain't coming next year.

Thought that the TV Show will speed up his old ass

inb4hedies

Link? I haven't read anything on this.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/articles/20338/20131013/winds-winter-release-date-delay-comic-con-george-r-r-martin.htm

No actual direct quotes in there.

Well he announced 3 books for 2014 and none of them are Winds.

And also:

http://www.hypable.com/2013/11/04/game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter-release-date-author-interview/

Definitely not seeing this in 2014.

So I have read quite a bit after the Red Wedding.

I was confused with Aristan the whitebeard because they didn't show that in the TV series and introduced Sir Barristan the bold straight away. Thought it was better in the books but obviously it wouldn't have worked in the TV as everyone would have figured out and there would be no surprise/shock. I don't think the TV series has that other fat guy who won against the horse rider in Meereen.

In any case the big talking points.

1) Geoffry's death. Thought he got a very easy death. Wanted something far more brutal. That wedding was epic though lmao. Tyrion's chapters are amazing. Love reading them. But yea, he is dead. Sansa poisoned him unintentionally. Still think it was Margaery, somehow involved. Sansa ran away to only find Petyr as his saviour looool.

The Red Viper will be a fan favourite. You can tell. Sounds like one of those bad ass characters.

Tyrion's trial was hilarious. So much farce

Sandor Clegane's face turn is interesting.

RealGunner wrote:So I have read quite a bit after the Red Wedding.

I was confused with Aristan the whitebeard because they didn't show that in the TV series and introduced Sir Barristan the bold straight away. Thought it was better in the books but obviously it wouldn't have worked in the TV as everyone would have figured out and there would be no surprise/shock. I don't think the TV series has that other fat guy who won against the horse rider in Meereen.

In any case the big talking points.

1) Geoffry's death. Thought he got a very easy death. Wanted something far more brutal. That wedding was epic though lmao. Tyrion's chapters are amazing. Love reading them. But yea, he is dead. Sansa poisoned him unintentionally. Still think it was Margaery, somehow involved. Sansa ran away to only find Petyr as his saviour looool.

The Red Viper will be a fan favourite. You can tell. Sounds like one of those bad ass characters.

Tyrion's trial was hilarious. So much farce

Sandor Clegane's face turn is interesting.

I don't know how far you read but Littlefinger explicitly tells Sansa in the ship who poisoned Joffrey.

Spoiler:

Yea I hadn't read that part till last night. I knew it was the Tyrells ffs. It was so much more obvious in the TV Show that they don't mean well for Joffrey.

Read another 10% of the book last night.

1) Red Viper https://i.servimg.com/u/f43/16/93/79/64/37329810.gif he just became my top 5 favourite characters. Wtf. Killed him just after 3 chapters lmao? That battle was amazing with Clegor.

2) Sandor Clegane https://i.servimg.com/u/f43/16/93/79/64/37329810.gif I actually felt sorry when he died. Will miss him unless he actually survived somehow.

3) I really hate Lysa.

4) Arya finally used the Valar Morghulis coin ffs I read that part like 5 times.

5) Stannis is the one true king. I am vouching for him. The only king who gave a shit about defending his realm. I went crazy when his army came to fight the wildlings. Stannis

6) John Snow being given a chance to become the lord of winterfell. That certainly came out of nowhere. I was expecting Stannis to make him a knight for himself but that is really interesting to see if John accepts it or not. I'd like nothing better than him slaying Ramsay.

7) Fake Arya LMFAO. Tywin u legend

I'll stop watching the show if they kill Tyrion.

Oh RG, if you only knew what lies ahead, so cute

Read a bit more

ARE YOU KIDDING ME. DID TYRION JUST KILL TYWIN LANNISTER?

And he did it on the shitter too.

The Old Lion went out like Elvis

I read those last 2 pages for like 10 times. Damn. Is it possible to like Tyrion more than now?


" For once, his father did what Tyrion asked him. The proof was the sudden stench, as his bowels loosened in the moment of death. Well, he was in the right place for it, Tyrion thought. But the stink tha filled the privy game ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold."

GRR Martin you absolute legend.