Results Comparison

I don't want to get back into the CL just for it being in the CL.

I want to get in the CL so we go far and have a chance of winning it.

This crop of players right now will struggle to get passed the round of 16 right now. Rodgers also has a lot of work to do tactically if he wants to compete against the very best.

Well there are no reasons to believe once we are in the CL we have the same squad! The whole point of going back there is to be there and further develop from that. Going there makes a way better team to attract players! We will have more financial benefits.

So no reason at all to believe that if we do qualify for CL we won't be a better team then we are right now!   

Well, obviously.

But are you not at all concerned that the current system is based on a player that may or may not be here next season?

Red Alert wrote:Well, obviously.

But are you not at all concerned that the current system is based on a player that may or may not be here next season?

frrrack that is why we pay to a so called 'manager' and we already have decent results without Suarez (performance wise we were always about to improve )

Red Alert wrote:Well, obviously.

But are you not at all concerned that the current system is based on a player that may or may not be here next season?

Of course not. How do you think we did when we were missing Suarez in those 10 games?

7 wins 2 draws and 1 loss.

Quit spreading this myth anymore. Of course we rely on Suarez when he plays because he's our best player and giving him the ball and playing around is what gets us the best chance of winning. But when he's out you are making too big of a deal about it.

McAgger makes a good point... smart managers play to their best players' talents. When Suarez is on the pitch, he's our best player (arguably anyone's best player... he's clearly one of the tops in the world at this point), so our gameplan utilizes that. But our supporting staff is not as useless as you're implying, as shown by how we've done when he's out.

Do I think that means we'll succeed in the CL if we make it there? I dunno. But I do know we were doing pretty well without Suarez.

Once again, I'd like to reference recent history, which everyone seems to be forgetting about. Am I the only who remembers Suarez's 8 game ban? We were DIRE. We relied on the likes of Charlie Adam and a (very) aging Craig Bellamy to score goals (which we didn't). We drew against Stoke and Blackburn and got thrashed by a terrible Bolton team. THAT team couldn't play without Suarez.

This one does just fine. And if we do have to sell him, we'll bring in other players and find another way to win. And it won't involve Charlie Adam.

McAgger wrote:

Red Alert wrote:Well, obviously.

But are you not at all concerned that the current system is based on a player that may or may not be here next season?

Of course not. How do you think we did when we were missing Suarez in those 10 games?

7 wins 2 draws and 1 loss.

Quit spreading this myth anymore. Of course we rely on Suarez when he plays because he's our best player and giving him the ball and playing around is what gets us the best chance of winning. But when he's out you are making too big of a deal about it.

You're looking at results, and not performances.

4 of those games were in the second half of last season where every team we vsed "gave up" on their season. They were either comfortably mid-table, or already relegated.

The other 6 games, yes we did well results wise, but we only played for 30 minutes before playing with 9 men behind the ball. We were carried by Sturridge and Mignolet in our first 6 games. And we hardly vsed anyone good. The only "good" team we vsed was Soton. Unless you want to count a Moyes run Manchester United AWAY from Old Trafford as "good". The rest of the teams were against teams such as Stoke, Aston Villa, Notts Country and Swansea. We didn't "impress" in either of those games.

Go back and look at every post match posts and tell me a game, without Suarez, where we played well. We did well to get the results, but we were hardly good. You're clutching at straws.

stevieg8 wrote:McAgger makes a good point... smart managers play to their best players' talents. When Suarez is on the pitch, he's our best player (arguably anyone's best player... he's clearly one of the tops in the world at this point), so our gameplan utilizes that. But our supporting staff is not as useless as you're implying, as shown by how we've done when he's out.

Do I think that means we'll succeed in the CL if we make it there? I dunno. But I do know we were doing pretty well without Suarez.

Once again, I'd like to reference recent history, which everyone seems to be forgetting about. Am I the only who remembers Suarez's 8 game ban? We were DIRE. We relied on the likes of Charlie Adam and a (very) aging Craig Bellamy to score goals (which we didn't). We drew against Stoke and Blackburn and got thrashed by a terrible Bolton team. THAT team couldn't play without Suarez.

This one does just fine. And if we do have to sell him, we'll bring in other players and find another way to win. And it won't involve Charlie Adam.

Smart managers don't ditch their style of play to accommodate one player. Smart managers make systems, and make the players fit THAT system so they're successful in the long run for a consistent time. Look at SAF's United (before his last season where he made RvP the main man to win the league so he can leave at the top level), look at Barca's success from Pep's era, look at Milan's in the 90s. You can go on and on and on. If you want recent times, look at Liverpool's under Rafa. Look at that 08/09 season. Gerrard / Torres were out for majority of the season. We continued to play at a high level. Why? The system made the team. The system didn't need players to carry.

Rodgers had a system in play. One that looked successful. I have no idea why we dropped it, but we did. And it will hurt is in the future if he doesn't go back to it. Keep in mind he's bought players that fit that style, and it took us 6-7 months to actually adjust to it as a team.

Our supporting staff as of right now, to an extent, is useless. All they do is give the ball to Suarez and make him an X factor and hope he wins it for us. All they really do is "defend". Sturridge is the only one that isn't intimated by having him in the same team. That's good. He can score, and actually has confidence in his own ability to do so. Kudos to him, he's proved me wrong. You go to our next best goal scorer, Steven Gerrard with 3. All of those goals are from set pieces. Next best? Well, numerous players with 1. There's not enough goals from midfield / out wide that are actually helping him. And to an extent, that's Rodgers' fault for building the team around Luis.

We could go back to playing an attacking possession based style that suits the team, and the supporting players aren't useless. Suarez is just "another" player in that system, and he'll continue to score goals/create as he's that good of a player, or we can continue making him the main man and drop like Spurs in the next season if he's sold. It's risky as hell building the player around one player. There's a reason the consistently good sides haven't done it. It's one thing buying quality players to accommodate other quality players (what we initially should of done), it's another building the whole system around that one player.

i didnt read ur full post but now I can already guess the content. Also you know very well that the performance problem was not because 'we did not have suarez' rather it was because of our 'MF and BR tactics in the initial few games'

What's your guess on the content of my post, then?

If you actually read the rest of the post, I said us abandoning our old system (attacking, possessioned based ala from last season) is the reason for our poor performances this season and it will affect us in the future if we don't go back to it.

As for the second part to your post, Rodgers had a full season to address the midfield problem, he didn't. Well, he sort of did by bringing in Coutinho (who I personally see him being better as an inside forward) and bringing in Joe Allen. Anyway, there's two problems with our midfield. One being with the whole team, and the other solely on the midfield.

Problem A) The team can't play this counter attacking style. Suarez and Sturridge can, yes. The rest can't. There's a reason we look so boring and out of it on the road. There's a reason there's no fluidity and no team structure away from home. There's a reason our players don't turn up, it's because of that counter attacking style. We play WAYYYY too deep as a team, and the midfield struggles to find other players when they have the ball. This is why we play a lot more 'long balls' away from home and hope for Suarez / Sturridge to latch on to it.

Problem B) The problem with midfield is quite clear - there's no balance in it. I said it in another thread, a midfield trio should have one attacker, one defensive minded, and a deep lying playmaker for balance. Keep in mind they actually need to need be midfielders, and not just random players. This is why Moses / Aspas have struggled in that number 10 role which lead to the other 2 in strife, they had no support. We wanted a number 10 (which we did need as Henderson isn't that player, and tbh I don't think he ever will be that player but he's a good back-up) in the summer and didn't get one for some reason. Mkhitarayn would of been perfect judging by his time at Dortmund.

I've stopped reading your posts regarding our performance all together. We all know your opinion on the subject.

I do not for a second agree with any of it, but hey everyone is entitled to their opinions.

However, I do want to ask if you could turn down the pessimism down a notch, this section is really becoming miserable. You would think we're in the relegation zone ffs.

Can't do, sorry. I'll be gone for good in the next year though, if that counts?

Where's RedO and Arq?

   

Jolly bunch, us scousers.

mr-r34 wrote:Jolly bunch, us scousers.

Red Alert wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:McAgger makes a good point... smart managers play to their best players' talents.  When Suarez is on the pitch, he's our best player (arguably anyone's best player... he's clearly one of the tops in the world at this point), so our gameplan utilizes that.  But our supporting staff is not as useless as you're implying, as shown by how we've done when he's out.

Do I think that means we'll succeed in the CL if we make it there?  I dunno.  But I do know we were doing pretty well without Suarez.

Once again, I'd like to reference recent history, which everyone seems to be forgetting about.  Am I the only who remembers Suarez's 8 game ban?  We were DIRE.  We relied on the likes of Charlie Adam and a (very) aging Craig Bellamy to score goals (which we didn't). We drew against Stoke and Blackburn and got thrashed by a terrible Bolton team.  THAT team couldn't play without Suarez.

This one does just fine.  And if we do have to sell him, we'll bring in other players and find another way to win.  And it won't involve Charlie Adam.

Smart managers don't ditch their style of play to accommodate one player. Smart managers make systems, and make the players fit THAT system so they're successful in the long run for a consistent time. Look at SAF's United (before his last season where he made RvP the main man to win the league so he can leave at the top level), look at Barca's success from Pep's era, look at Milan's in the 90s. You can go on and on and on. If you want recent times, look at Liverpool's under Rafa. Look at that 08/09 season. Gerrard / Torres were out for majority of the season. We continued to play at a high level. Why? The system made the team. The system didn't need players to carry.    

Rodgers had a system in play. One that looked successful. I have no idea why we dropped it, but we did. And it will hurt is in the future if he doesn't go back to it. Keep in mind he's bought players that fit that style, and it took us 6-7 months to actually adjust to it as a team.  

Our supporting staff as of right now, to an extent, is useless. All they do is give the ball to Suarez and make him an X factor and hope he wins it for us. All they really do is "defend". Sturridge is the only one that isn't intimated by having him in the same team. That's good. He can score, and actually has confidence in his own ability to do so. Kudos to him, he's proved me wrong. You go to our next best goal scorer, Steven Gerrard with 3. All of those goals are from set pieces. Next best? Well, numerous players with 1. There's not enough goals from midfield / out wide that are actually helping him. And to an extent, that's Rodgers' fault for building the team around Luis.

We could go back to playing an attacking possession based style that suits the team, and the supporting players aren't useless. Suarez is just "another" player in that system, and he'll continue to score goals/create as he's that good of a player, or we can continue making him the main man and drop like Spurs in the next season if he's sold. It's risky as hell building the player around one player. There's a reason the consistently good sides haven't done it. It's one thing buying quality players to accommodate other quality players (what we initially should of done), it's another building the whole system around that one player.

I really can't agree with this for any sport.  Literally not a single one.  You watch it in every type of game - when the manager/coach tries to shoehorn players into a system that doesn't play to their strengths, it goes poorly for them.  Look at Mike D'antoni in LA or NY, look at Mike Shanahan right now in Washington (jeez, lot of screw up Mikes...). When you try to force players to play a way that doesn't suit what they're good at, YOUR TEAM LOSES.  That's the only possible result.

Now that doesn't quite dispute what you're saying.  What you're describing is the best case scenario - think SAF, think Bill Belichick, think Gregg Popovich.  It's when the manager/coach is so in tune with their philosophy that they only bring in players that suit the system; therefore the system stays continuous AND plays to the players' strengths.  The result is dynasties, and I agree that's what we should be shooting for.

You know what that the key ingredient in all of those managers' tenures is? TIME.  Each of them made it with key players that they selected, not that were left-over.  But I don't see anyone (and especially not you) arguing that we should sell Suarez because he wasn't BR's handpicked man.  No, instead we play to suit him while he's here, because he's the star.  BR wants a fluid system; Suarez is most effective with the ball at his feet.  So we give him the ball.

BR's progress in building a coherent squad is shown when Suarez isn't playing.  I like how you ignored the part of my post where I referenced Suarez's first suspension because it didn't work for you.  You say we got the results without the performances.  I say that's a huge step up from when we didn't even get the results.  The quality around Suarez is ages better; just because it's overshadowed by how good Suarez is doesn't mean it's bad.

Finally, I want to make a quick point to your offhand, example-less "There's a reason the consistently good sides haven't done it."  The top teams have done it.  They play to their star's strengths while they're on the pitch.  RM plays to CR7, Barca plays to Messi, Juve (at least when I had time to watch a game or two last year) played through Pirlo, PSG plays through Ibra.  You maximize your best player.  This doesn't mean those squads aren't VERY talented all the way through, and it certainly doesn't mean they'll drop if they lose those players.  What it does mean is that when that player is on the pitch, you make sure the players around them and the system suit their needs - because that's what will give you the best chance to win.

stevieg8 wrote:

Red Alert wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:McAgger makes a good point... smart managers play to their best players' talents.  When Suarez is on the pitch, he's our best player (arguably anyone's best player... he's clearly one of the tops in the world at this point), so our gameplan utilizes that.  But our supporting staff is not as useless as you're implying, as shown by how we've done when he's out.

Do I think that means we'll succeed in the CL if we make it there?  I dunno.  But I do know we were doing pretty well without Suarez.

Once again, I'd like to reference recent history, which everyone seems to be forgetting about.  Am I the only who remembers Suarez's 8 game ban?  We were DIRE.  We relied on the likes of Charlie Adam and a (very) aging Craig Bellamy to score goals (which we didn't). We drew against Stoke and Blackburn and got thrashed by a terrible Bolton team.  THAT team couldn't play without Suarez.

This one does just fine.  And if we do have to sell him, we'll bring in other players and find another way to win.  And it won't involve Charlie Adam.

Smart managers don't ditch their style of play to accommodate one player. Smart managers make systems, and make the players fit THAT system so they're successful in the long run for a consistent time. Look at SAF's United (before his last season where he made RvP the main man to win the league so he can leave at the top level), look at Barca's success from Pep's era, look at Milan's in the 90s. You can go on and on and on. If you want recent times, look at Liverpool's under Rafa. Look at that 08/09 season. Gerrard / Torres were out for majority of the season. We continued to play at a high level. Why? The system made the team. The system didn't need players to carry.    

Rodgers had a system in play. One that looked successful. I have no idea why we dropped it, but we did. And it will hurt is in the future if he doesn't go back to it. Keep in mind he's bought players that fit that style, and it took us 6-7 months to actually adjust to it as a team.  

Our supporting staff as of right now, to an extent, is useless. All they do is give the ball to Suarez and make him an X factor and hope he wins it for us. All they really do is "defend". Sturridge is the only one that isn't intimated by having him in the same team. That's good. He can score, and actually has confidence in his own ability to do so. Kudos to him, he's proved me wrong. You go to our next best goal scorer, Steven Gerrard with 3. All of those goals are from set pieces. Next best? Well, numerous players with 1. There's not enough goals from midfield / out wide that are actually helping him. And to an extent, that's Rodgers' fault for building the team around Luis.

We could go back to playing an attacking possession based style that suits the team, and the supporting players aren't useless. Suarez is just "another" player in that system, and he'll continue to score goals/create as he's that good of a player, or we can continue making him the main man and drop like Spurs in the next season if he's sold. It's risky as hell building the player around one player. There's a reason the consistently good sides haven't done it. It's one thing buying quality players to accommodate other quality players (what we initially should of done), it's another building the whole system around that one player.

I really can't agree with this for any sport.  Literally not a single one.  You watch it in every type of game - when the manager/coach tries to shoehorn players into a system that doesn't play to their strengths, it goes poorly for them.  Look at Mike D'antoni in LA or NY, look at Mike Shanahan right now in Washington (jeez, lot of screw up Mikes...). When you try to force players to play a way that doesn't suit what they're good at, YOUR TEAM LOSES.  That's the only possible result.

Now that doesn't quite dispute what you're saying.  What you're describing is the best case scenario - think SAF, think Bill Belichick, think Gregg Popovich.  It's when the manager/coach is so in tune with their philosophy that they only bring in players that suit the system; therefore the system stays continuous AND plays to the players' strengths.  The result is dynasties, and I agree that's what we should be shooting for.

You know what that the key ingredient in all of those managers' tenures is? TIME.  Each of them made it with key players that they selected, not that were left-over.  But I don't see anyone (and especially not you) arguing that we should sell Suarez because he wasn't BR's handpicked man.  No, instead we play to suit him while he's here, because he's the star.  BR wants a fluid system; Suarez is most effective with the ball at his feet.  So we give him the ball.

BR's progress in building a coherent squad is shown when Suarez isn't playing.  I like how you ignored the part of my post where I referenced Suarez's first suspension because it didn't work for you.  You say we got the results without the performances.  I say that's a huge step up from when we didn't even get the results.  The quality around Suarez is ages better; just because it's overshadowed by how good Suarez is doesn't mean it's bad.

Finally, I want to make a quick point to your offhand, example-less "There's a reason the consistently good sides haven't done it."  The top teams have done it.  They play to their star's strengths while they're on the pitch.  RM plays to CR7, Barca plays to Messi, Juve (at least when I had time to watch a game or two last year) played through Pirlo, PSG plays through Ibra.  You maximize your best player.  This doesn't mean those squads aren't VERY talented all the way through, and it certainly doesn't mean they'll drop if they lose those players.  What it does mean is that when that player is on the pitch, you make sure the players around them and the system suit their needs - because that's what will give you the best chance to win.

Our players are already suited to the system from last season. Hell, Rodgers has even signed players to get that system in place. No one is asking Rodgers to create a whole new style. I’m talking about going back to the system that accommodates the team rather than one or two player’s ffs. The one he got the job for, the one we spent 7 months straight getting used too. I have no idea how it’s like in the MLS, they don’t have any TV rights in Australia. Well, unless it’s on Santana but that’s the one sports channel I don’t have so I can’t comment on LA, NY or Washington. But with all due respect, the MLS is A LOT different to the PL.

Rodgers is one of the longest serving managers in the PL. Granted he’s only been here for 2 years, but he already should have the edge over the other teams around him. Now, I’m not asking Rodgers to get sacked. Not once have I said I want him gone. I’ve stated time and time again that he needs to go back to playing the playing style that actually worked (attacking/possession based) and to drop this counter-attacking crap that doesn’t suit the team. (My only other concern is that he’s given too much control at the club but that’s not the time and place for this thread.) And I’m not saying Suarez WILL get sold, I’m saying what happens if a Bayern or a Madrid comes in for him and Suarez says “I’ve had enough at Liverpool, I want silverware I want to leave”. Where does that leave Liverpool if we spent ¾ of a season making HIM the system and he leaves. That’s my concern. How does that honestly benefit Liverpool, even if we do make the CL? Yes we can improve as we can attract better players, but look at Spurs - it doesn’t take 2 minutes to get a style together.

I didn’t ignore nothing from your previous post. And if anything, that actually improves MY point. Well, sort of. To an extent. Suarez first suspension was under Dalglish, not Rodgers. They were two different teams, with two different styles of play and two different mentality’s. We played through Suarez ALL the time under Dalglish, we made a 35m player a bench player to accommodate him. The only problem is that we stacked up on scrubs to accommodate Carroll, not Suarez. We were horrible, Suarez was the only shining light. WC talent, not playing in his preferred system, looking good. Looking world class in a system that has nothing to do with him. That’s sort of my point – any top player looks good in any system they play. A system is put in place to accommodate the other players, not to be so one dimensional in the way you go about it.

The top sides haven’t done it. Pep’s Barcelona definitely wasn’t around Messi. He was integral to it, but so was Alves and so was the midfield trio. Barcelona is now under Martino or whatever his name is and that’s why they’ve sort of struggled this season. (Although their defence remains the biggest problem.) You don’t maximize your best player. You play a system, the system gets the best out of the team, the bigger and better players step up and look better naturally. I'll just use the PL as examples. Look at SAFs United. They had Ronaldo, in a system. He was sold to Real Madrid, everybody thought United was done, finished just like that. Their era was over. They just sold the best player in the world and replaced him with Antonio Valencia from all people. Head scratcher. United goes on to win how many more leagues and make 2-3 other CL final appearances without Ronaldo. Why? System. Rooney is a WC talent. United isn’t built around Rooney. Does that make Rooney put in poor performances? No. You can go on and on and on. Hell, look at Liverpool’s run in the CL in 2005. Gerrard carried us at times, but Alonso, Sami, Jamie, and Didi were key in us beating the likes of  Juventus, Milan, etc. It wasn’t just Gerrard – Rafa from the time he got here wanted his team to play in a system. It worked, we went on to win the CL and an FA cup the year after. He probably would of won the league too if Gerrard / Torres weren’t injured for so long in 08/09. Look at Mou’s Chelsea. Look at Arsene’s Arsenal. A system around the team is crucial. And Juventus aren’t just built around Pirlo, their whole midfield and defence is great. They just lack the bite up forward to play a 352 and why they struggled in the CL. (Tevez and Llorente are great, but are more suited to more support from out wide. They don’t get that enough with a 352.)

Your best chance of winning games is a consistent style of play. Build a system THAT BENEFITS THE TEAM, NOT ONE PLAYER, and we’ll go on to advanced levels of fighting for the league / winning silverware. I’m not saying don’t exploit Suarez’ talent. Far from it. I just want other players involved more so it doesn’t affect us in the future if he does leave. Suarez will look good in whatever system he plays in, like I said he did well under Kenny and we didn’t even have a system in place for 6 months after Lucas went out injured. Luis will look very good in an attacking possession based style like he did last season. The other Liverpool players looked good in that style of play too, why drop it? Because right now, the team are struggling in this counter-attacking style. They can't play it, they need possession. Look at the end of the West Ham game. The game was natural to most of them. Why?

We had “easy” games at the start of the season and we dropped stupid points away from home. We now have to vs Spurs, Chelsea and City in our next 4 games all away. We can go from 2nd to potentially 7th by the end of December because we decided to play a new style that wasn’t the same from last season. We should of exploited that the other teams didn’t have a system in place (we already did) and did drop points at the start of the season (Ctiy’s away form, Chelsea’s away form, Spurs “crisis’”)  but we didn’t because we wanted to change our style of play. That’s going to hurt us come at the back of the end of the season when we find ourselves playing catch up to get back into the top 4.

Look agree to disagree on this - I think we have a system and it plays through Suarez; I don't think he's been saving us nearly as much as you think, and I also have no problem playing through him a) because he's our best player and we should play through him and b) because we've managed to get results when he's not on the pitch, so clearly we're doing fine in that regards too. I understand you won't agree on that, so let's move on.

I really need to say though - D'antoni = lakers and knicks, shanahan = redskins, popovich = spurs and belichick = patriots. Not a single MLS team in there, I was making the point that singling out your best player and building a system that emphasizes them is a strategy used across all team sports.

Awkward, I haven't watched an NBA game in years. It's always on at 12pm or so here in Australia, and I'm never home at the time to catch the game. Apologies.

Anyway. Get back to the football.

I'm saying that system through Suarez is risky considering there's a good chance he won't be here next season. I'm sorry if I'd personally rather make a system built around the team rather than Luis (and you and I both, well I think half the forum knows that I rate Suarez very highly). I don't know see how there's a problem with me wanting a system that's not solely around Luis and would rather him just be a WC talent in a system, than making him the system. He's not going to be here forever.

If people could open their eyes they'd see it's a potential problem IN THE FUTURE; but everyone has their eyes set currently in the present. (Where again, our performances AWAY from home all season have been dull and average.) Open your eyes people. Sick of this agenda against my posts. Yes I want CL, yes I want to win the league in the future, yes I want to see us progress, but how can I get regarded as a "pessimist" in this section where there ARE worries with this current group that no one else wants to address / look at. Now, I'm not saying don't be optimistic, go for it. But don't ignore the problems in the squad. There's a huge difference between a pessimist and a realist.

Suarez is responsible for 44% of Liverpool's goals this season in the PL. He's missed 5 games. He's responsible for 50% of our goals if you add his assists (again in only 10 games). Take away the 5 games he didn't play, he's responsible for 58% of our goals he's played this season (15 goals and 2 assists, again this is just in the PL.) How is that NOT a worry if he's not here next season? So sure, let's agree to disagree. And I'm sorry for making this whole section dull.

Red Alert wrote:Awkward, I haven't watched an NBA game in years. It's always on at 12pm or so here in Australia, and I'm never home at the time to catch the game. Apologies.

Anyway. Get back to the football.

I'm saying that system through Suarez is risky considering there's a good chance he won't be here next season. I'm sorry if I'd personally rather make a system built around the team rather than Luis (and you and I both, well I think half the forum knows that I rate Suarez very highly). I don't know see how there's a problem with me wanting a system that's not solely around Luis and would rather him just be a WC talent in a system, than making him the system. He's not going to be here forever.

If people could open their eyes they'd see it's a potential problem IN THE FUTURE; but everyone has their eyes set currently in the present. (Where again, our performances AWAY from home all season have been dull and average.) Open your eyes people. Sick of this agenda against my posts. Yes I want CL, yes I want to win the league in the future, yes I want to see us progress, but how can I get regarded as a "pessimist" in this section where there ARE worries with this current group that no one else wants to address / look at. Now, I'm not saying don't be optimistic, go for it. But don't ignore the problems in the squad. There's a huge difference between a pessimist and a realist.

Suarez is responsible for 44% of Liverpool's goals this season in the PL. He's missed 5 games. He's responsible for 50% of our goals if you add his assists (again in only 10 games). Take away the 5 games he didn't play, he's responsible for 58% of our goals he's played this season (15 goals and 2 assists, again this is just in the PL.) How is that NOT a worry if he's not here next season? So sure, let's agree to disagree. And I'm sorry for making this whole section dull.

It's no problem, I just figured I'd let you know it wasn't MLS.

Anyway, my point is that just because Suarez is scoring all the goals doesn't mean that we don't have a system that allows others to flourish. The system emphasizes him because he's the best, but I don't believe it does so at the expense of our other players - and I feel that way because we saw it to be true at the start of the season. I brought up his suspension under Dalglish because a team without class outside of Suarez will fail without him in the squad - I agree with that, we've already seen it. But we didn't fail this time. Surely there must be a reason for that aside from luck/easy fixtures. In my mind, it's because the team is good enough to survive without him - but while he's there, we should absolutely utilize him.

As for the "agenda" against your posts, I'm not sure I understand your point. When there have been three separate threads since the start of the year on our midfield being crap; when every person considers every game a "must-win" game because they expect us to drop points all season long; when everyone assumes that Suarez will likely leave next summer; when everyone mentions after commanding wins how annoying it was to lose yet another clean sheet. EVERYONE is pessimistic. I have no vendetta against your posts, and I'm shocked to see everyone aside from me disagreeing with you when they bitch about the same stuff you do every time they post.

And my problem isn't with bringing up possible problems in the squad. I take no issue with that. My problem is that every single post is about it. The post-win posts in this section address our defensive issues, and we discuss how Lucas was crap after every 4-1 win. Posts about the Winter Transfer Market somehow relate to our away form. Every game is a must-win game because we haven't been good enough for top 4 (when we have, literally, been good enough for top 4), or we won't continue to be in the future. And every conversation of Suarez dominating relates back to last summer or next summer. It's depressing - and I really, truly don't put this on you. It's everyone. I'm sorry you feel I have a vendetta against you; if it makes you feel any better, I'll be going back to the heavy lurking I've been doing the last few months shortly.

System blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah

ON YOUR FACE!!!

Fahim89 wrote:System blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah

ON YOUR FACE!!!

fahim you're my favorite poster on this *bleep* site

Fahim89 wrote:System blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah

ON YOUR FACE!!!

nothing against ynwa but pls dont come with another long post to this...or will ya

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:

Fahim89 wrote:System blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah
Players blah blah
System blah blah blah

ON YOUR FACE!!!

nothing against ynwa but pls dont come with another long post to this...or will ya

Do you people even read my posts ffs?

Red Alert wrote:About *bleep* time ffs. We go back to our old system from last season (attack/kept possession/LOOKED for a pass rather than lumping it forward to Suarez) and we put in our best performance of the year. Players are motivated, COMFORTABLE and genuinely just thrive in this system. Spurs had no answers to it, again, they're still adjusting to THEIR new system - we already had that over them. This is what I wanted for the last 6 months here - let's just hope this counter-attacking crap is gone for good and the experimentations stop away from home. We already have the formula.

EDIT: This has nothing to do with Gerrard out. The old system is back baby. IF we continue to play like this, I'm CONFIDENT we'll finish in the top 4. But I do not for one second regret my bursts at Rodgers at the start of the season - we could easily be first right now if we didn't play that 352 counter attacking crap.

I've been calling it all year, this is HOW I wanted to play all season. The first time this season we've had the same back 4 in consecutive games (consistent defence, which was solid) I said time and time again that the midfield duo isn't our problem but it was the fact that we only played with 2. Henderson's gone back there now and helped out. If we get a number 10, and continue to play OUR system, we won't fight for the top 4 - we'll fight for the league.

It's no problem, I just figured I'd let you know it wasn't MLS.

Anyway, my point is that just because Suarez is scoring all the goals doesn't mean that we don't have a system that allows others to flourish.  The system emphasizes him because he's the best, but I don't believe it does so at the expense of our other players - and I feel that way because we saw it to be true at the start of the season.  I brought up his suspension under Dalglish because a team without class outside of Suarez will fail without him in the squad - I agree with that, we've already seen it.  But we didn't fail this time.  Surely there must be a reason for that aside from luck/easy fixtures.  In my mind, it's because the team is good enough to survive without him - but while he's there, we should absolutely utilize him.

As for the "agenda" against your posts, I'm not sure I understand your point.  When there have been three separate threads since the start of the year on our midfield being crap; when every person considers every game a "must-win" game because they expect us to drop points all season long; when everyone assumes that Suarez will likely leave next summer; when everyone mentions after commanding wins how annoying it was to lose yet another clean sheet.  EVERYONE is pessimistic.  I have no vendetta against your posts, and I'm shocked to see everyone aside from me disagreeing with you when they bitch about the same stuff you do every time they post.

And my problem isn't with bringing up possible problems in the squad.  I take no issue with that.  My problem is that every single post is about it.  The post-win posts in this section address our defensive issues, and we discuss how Lucas was crap after every 4-1 win.  Posts about the Winter Transfer Market somehow relate to our away form.  Every game is a must-win game because we haven't been good enough for top 4 (when we have, literally, been good enough for top 4), or we won't continue to be in the future.  And every conversation of Suarez dominating relates back to last summer or next summer.  It's depressing - and I really, truly don't put this on you.  It's everyone.  I'm sorry you feel I have a vendetta against you; if it makes you feel any better, I'll be going back to the heavy lurking I've been doing the last few months shortly.

The counter-attacking system suits NOBODY in the team bar Suarez and Sturridge. And again, I've seen enough of Suarez to see that he doesn't need to be the main focal point in the system to thrive, he does well in whatever team he's in. It's one thing exploiting his talents, it's another thing hindering the squad. That was my problem.

Look at the Spurs game, we go back to our old system, the one where the WHOLE TEAM is comfortable in and Suarez is just the “striker” and not the focal point in the team, and we put in the best performance this season. Suarez doesn’t need the system around him to be good, as evident by his 2 goals and 2 assists today, so making a system around the TEAM is what I wanted. That’s how we played last season – not something we were doing before this Spurs game. Again, away from home. That’s what I’ve called for all season. To us to go back to how we played last season.

It’s not you with the agenda against me in this forum, it’s practically EVERYBODY. Everyone disagrees with my posts nowadays, so it’s not just you. Keep in mind, I get more stuff right than I get wrong if you have the time to go through my posts. Lol

I’ve stated time and time again our midfield isn’t as big as a problem as everyone else makes it out to be, the fact that we played “2” men in the midfield was. We went back to 3 and well, we’re doing better. It’s no surprise. Lucas is “regaining form” because we have reverted back to our old style of play. I stated back in the summer we probably need a "Diame" type player as a back-up and I stand by it. I don't think we need to splash the cash on a box to box player and continue to believe that we need a number 10 / attacking midfielder.

Games sort of are must win games though. Look at this Spurs game just last night. If they beat us, they go on the same points as us and we fall behind City and Arsenal. How is that "deserving of CL" if Spurs are in a crisis, and have no system in place? We win, we now go 2nd and look comfortable points wise in front of Spurs and United. That's a good thing, and will have a toll on them at the end of the season. We still need a bigger gap against Everton, as they’re sort of close but they'll fade away post March I think. What we do now is what sets us up at the back of the season. We need to continue trying to win games. Maybe “must wins” isn’t the best way to describe it, but I get the forums intent from wanting to win every game. Again, there's 7 teams fighting for 4 places.  

Our away form wasn’t “good enough” for top 4 especially if you look at the performances over the course of the season. That counter-attacking 352 crap that we played and lost so many points from is what I’m pissed off about. If we play to our strengths, and continue to play as a team, and not make Luis do everything on his own, we’ll deserve it. But we need to play like how we did against Spurs consistently. There’s no use saying “we did well against Spurs we deserve top 4”. We need to continue the system, which again, I have no idea WHY we dropped it in the first place but anyway, and “fix” our away form. Because we have been woeful on the road this season. (Again, as have Chelsea and City but City have finally settled under Pellegrini and it won't be long before Chelsea go out and splash the cash to improve the starting XI even further.)

Guys who gives a farkkkkkkkkk, difference of opinions, enjoy this win.

I'm imposing a no argument rule for the next 3 days. I have that power.

mr-r34 wrote:Guys who gives a farkkkkkkkkk, difference of opinions, enjoy this win.

I'm imposing a no argument rule for the next 3 days. I have that power.

and you got vote