Re: Arsene Wenger Contract Discussion Thread

[urbaNRoots]

Klopp yesterday played a team with a guy he signed as a free agent who hadn't played football for years as CB, a former striker playing as LB, a RB playing DM, a RW playing CM, and a RB playing LW and gave Real Madrid a proper beating. Just to show that great managers win big games even with a lot of injuries (a lot worse than our injury situation) and that our ability to lose in every big game because of injuries cannot be an excuse.

[MJ]

*Wenger voice*

Look, I can tell you we beat Bayern Munich last season 2-0. We had not our starting goalkeeper as he had little bit form and ego niggle. Our execution was exceptional, we had former attacking midfielder Arteta playing holding midfielder, former underwear model, Olivier Giroud, playing striker. This season as well we did not drop physicality second half and drew 1-1. Was Arjen Robben the reason we did not progress with his diving antics? I don't know Robben.

*MJ*

In all seriousness, Europe is a different stage. In the EPL, yes, we've been mauled. Yes, that implies there needs to be change. If we don't achieve top 4 and win the FA Cup then it will be very hard to argue that Wenger can still be the man to bring about that change. But look at the Bundesliga, injuries have had a massive impact on Klopp's side. They're 20 points off of the top, that says a lot about the myth that Klopp is inherently superior in every way simply because.

[urbaNRoots]

They've had a far worse injury situation compared to ours though, we actually have decent replacements for everyone but Giroud and Mertesacker/Koscielny and thankfully none of those players were out for a long time.

Look at our team against Everton and compare it Dortmund's last night, it's not even funny. Klopp motivates that team to beat a very strong Real Madrid while that team of ours gets battered against Everton.

And I was talking about winning big games with a long injury list not a whole league campaign, you can still win big games if you have a good plan or at the very least compete.

[MJ]

How can you compare playing Madrid in the CL to our Everton, why not our performances against Bayern? At least keep it in Europe.

Like I said, if you go league to league, Klopp is 20 points behind Bayern. Not two months ago they lost 3-0 to Hamburg, they lost at home to mönchengladbach, lost at home to Zenit.

We've been just as poor in our league as well in terms of results. Only difference is that in that same time span we had a game we got thrashed in.

Injuries to Özil, Ramsey, Walcott are probably the worst three to have out besides Kos/Per. I think we'd be able to cope without Giroud but losing those three is massive in itself, don't underplay it.

[urbaNRoots]

We didn't have an injury list when we won against Bayern mate, we had our best team out there at the time except Sagna. While Dortmund have been without Gündogan, Sahin, Kehl, Subotic, Sokratis,  Schmelzer last night.

I don't why you keep instisting, it's not the same getting a result wirh one player missing compared to Dortmund's situation.

And yet again you bring the league form which I wasn't comparing at all. I'm talking about not losing by 3 or more goals in every big game mate, injuries are not an excuse for that. Klopp proved that you can win big games with a huge injuries if you have a bloody plan which Wenger doesn't have.

[MJ]

You can't discount our European performances simply on the grounds that we weren't handicapped for them. Just as we've been fatigued physically, mentally and with four starters out against Everton we were decimated.

I'm saying the same thing happened to Dortmund against Hamburg. I don't know why you keep insisting that because Klopp inspired Dortmund to play well against Madrid that his previous performances in the league and even losing to Zenit in the CL should be dismissed.

Of course I'm going to bring league form into play. You compared their win v Madrid to our loss to Everton. How is that not grounds to talk about their league form? I didn't excuse losing big games, I simply compared Klopp's league form to ours, plain and simple.

[urbaNRoots]

Well you turned it into a Klopp vs Wenger overall comparison when I was merely discussing his ability to win big games even with a lot of injuries, excuses which are being used to explain losses like 6-0, 5-1 or 3-0. My point is you can't use the injury excuse for losing big games REGULARLY. If you have a plan, you can win big game even if your best players are missing or at the very least make it look close.

It's not only Klopp who wins big games with important players missing. Mourinho last night won without Hazard and Matic. SAF beat Wenger with a midfield of Young, Giggs, Gibson and some other scrub. Wenger just shows.his inferiority in that aspect.

[Hapless_Hans]

You can't discount our European performances simply on the grounds that we weren't handicapped for them. Just as we've been fatigued physically, mentally and with four starters out against Everton we were decimated.

I'm saying the same thing happened to Dortmund against Hamburg. I don't know why you keep insisting that because Klopp inspired Dortmund to play well against Madrid that his previous performances in the league and even losing to Zenit in the CL should be dismissed.

Of course I'm going to bring league form into play. You compared their win v Madrid to our loss to Everton. How is that not grounds to talk about their league form? I didn't excuse losing big games, I simply compared Klopp's league form to ours, plain and simple.

I'll just remind you real quick that Dortmund last year actually reached the final while stuffing Real in the progress, while you went out in the last 16, as always. With a wage bill and a squad that cost surely more than double those of Dortmund.

[Raptorgunner]

We can’t use injuries as a excuse of Giroud incompetence as a footballer. We need to make space for brand new top class players next summer transfer. Sadly I cant see Wenger buying any, he is still hunted by being forced to buy Ozil.

Dont believe all the positives you hear about players loving Wenger. Players are leaving because of him and will continue. You dont think players are pissed off at Wenger not buying top players? perfect example… Not buying a good enough striker!!!
Many players came out and said we need a striker and Wenger tried to loan Ba and Kalou. 
Foolishness is when a coach depends on two disables (Giroud and Sanogo) as top
strikers for honors.  

[MJ]

Well you turned it into a Klopp vs Wenger overall comparison when I was merely discussing his ability to win big games even with a lot of injuries, excuses which are being used to explain losses like 6-0, 5-1 or 3-0. My point is you can't use the injury excuse for losing big games REGULARLY. If you have a plan, you can win big game even if your best players are missing or at the very least make it look close.

It's not only Klopp who wins big games with important players missing. Mourinho last night won without Hazard and Matic. SAF beat Wenger with a midfield of Young, Giggs, Gibson and some other scrub. Wenger just shows.his inferiority in that aspect.

Not really making it Klopp vs Wenger but when you just use last night as an example of his superiority then that's shortsighted. I compared their league position to ours and then Europe to ours, this season, that's it. I didn't touch on the heavy losses but I did categorize Everton differently, that's why I brought up them losing to Hamburg. No manager is immune to suffering after key injuries.

Our performances have been indefensibly subpar as of recent, again, I wasn't even bringing them up.

I'll just remind you real quick that Dortmund last year actually reached the final while stuffing Real in the progress, while you went out in the last 16, as always. With a wage bill and a squad that cost surely more than double those of Dortmund.

Went out to the champions, as did Dortmund. Surely not a coincidence?

[MJ]

Dont believe all the positives you hear about players loving Wenger. Players are leaving because of him and will continue. You dont think players are pissed off at Wenger not buying top players? perfect example… Not buying a good enough striker!!!

Haven't heard any former players with anything but admiration and respect for him actually.

When we were selling big players every year they did voice their frustration at that trend but since it's stopped and looks to be a thing of the past I don't think it's worth bringing up. Beyond saying they'd wished we could have won titles and brought more players in to do that, former players aren't really disrespecting Wenger.

[Raptorgunner]

The chemistry is simply not there anymore, I dont think the players or Wenger believe in themselves anymore, this season could even get uglier, we lack mental strength, fight and determination. I hope Ramsey can fire them up.

[MJ]

Well we'll see on Saturday then. Still think we can make something of it.

At the beginning of the season I'd have said top 4 and FA Cup was progress.

[Hapless_Hans]

I'll just remind you real quick that Dortmund last year actually reached the final while stuffing Real in the progress, while you went out in the last 16, as always. With a wage bill and a squad that cost surely more than double those of Dortmund.

Went out to the champions, as did Dortmund. Surely not a coincidence?

Bate Borisov went out against the champions, while beating them in one game, just like Arsenal.
Surely not a coincidence?!

[MJ]

I'll just remind you real quick that Dortmund last year actually reached the final while stuffing Real in the progress, while you went out in the last 16, as always. With a wage bill and a squad that cost surely more than double those of Dortmund.

Went out to the champions, as did Dortmund. Surely not a coincidence?

Bate Borisov went out against the champions, while beating them in one game, just like Arsenal.
Surely not a coincidence?!

Which is why I wouldn't hold it to them for making such an early exit.   

[EL Patron]

Why are people drooling over Dortmund nearly come back against Madrid   

Pretty sure we have had nights like this before, in fact we had a similar one recently against Meelan. We also did it with a shitty, average, injury ravaged team. see a familiar pattern there  

[urbaNRoots]

Diego Simeone, another brilliant manager showing Arsene Wenger how to compete with your best players out.

[Benry]

Comments like the above are exactly why Wenger should go. I've never seen someone do so much and shown such a lack of respect.

Fine there are people who are fed up with the guy, I am to a point, but the biggest problem Arsenal have is a painfully lame board. To be honest I don't trust the board to find a decent replacement because they have done very little in the grand scheme of things. No-one there strikes me as a visionary who is charismatic enough to get the likes of Simeone to leave their current position.

I hope he wins the FA Cup and goes out on a high, the guy has done so much.

Oh and aha at the Klopp love in don't get me wrong he's awesome but he has some apparent faults. He wouldn't solve our injury crisis, the Real Madrid game was as someone already said Milan mark 2.

And as already pointed out by El Patron I really doubt these shopping sprees will commence we have an owner who has not invested a quid in the club, just think about that.

[MJ]

That's exactly what I meant about Klopp. Are we in such a low that we see Klopp that highly? In reality his team are worse off than ours.

Think Wenger taking a role upstairs and a new manager with different ideas could be good for the club if he decides it's time he calls it a day. Will know for sure on Saturday whether it's time or not.

[urbaNRoots]

We can't get Klopp anyway even if we wanted. Him and Watzke/Zorc are trying to make Dortmund an European powerhouse financially (just like Arsene did with us). Same with Simeone, in my opinion. Both of them love their clubs and will stay until they reach their target.

[Jay29]

Didn't we draw at Bayern without our best players, in a similar way Atelti played against Barcelona tonight? All right, we didn't go through like they did, but then, Bayern are the best team around at the moment while Barcelona have declined.

Honestly, I think we could've competed against Barcelona in the same way that Atleti did. This big game anxiety doesn't seem to occur in Europe; less we forget we went to Dortmund and won (Klopp's Dortmund, you know) playing defensive all game. And we went to Bayern and won last year, again playing a defensive game.

The problems have been in domestic away games, almost exclusively so, so when comparing Wenger to other managers you have to compare their equilavent records i.e Dortmund's record away to Bayern, Leverkusen, Schalke or Atletico's record away to Madrid and Barcelona.

[Raptorgunner]

The Arsenal board.

[MJ]

I didn't buy all the talk of Wenger paying no mind to video-analysis or tactical awareness anyway. Per said it himself last season. The key to our defensive stability was that the squad started watching video of what was going wrong to amend it.

Giroud just told Arsenal Player that the squad was made to re-watch the Everton match for the same purpose this week, find out what went wrong and how to correct it.

The Frenchman and his teammates endured that woeful display again this week as a means to try and get things back on track ahead of this weekend’s FA Cup semi-final with Wigan, and he admits the team need to show more fight if they want to progress to the final.

“If sometimes you are not at 100 per cent in the head, you are not ready enough,” he told Arsenal Player. “We were not sufficient in our commitment and in our intention to play at Everton.”

“We have seen our mistakes on the video and we need to learn about them and not do it again. We have to come back to something simple and restart to the basics, like more commitment, more determination.”

[Hapless_Hans]

that's not the same though.

If I understand right, the criticism towards Wenger is that he pays too little attention to adapting tactics relative to who you face.
Obviously I don't know if this is true, or in any case an exaggeration, but that would actually be an explanation to the away game debacles against top teams.
In my opinion a better exlanation than 'lacking mentality' or such diffuse nonsense.

You played the Liverpool game as if you hadn't seen the Everton loss at Anfield a couple of weeks before, or as if you decided to ignore it.
I wouldn't say it's far fetched to speculate for Wenger to be slighty too arrogant tacticswise.

[urbaNRoots]

Wenger is a proactive coach and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact some of the best managers in history are known to be proactive coaches who concentrate on their own team rather than in disrupting the opponent.

This team, he build himself, needs help from him and they aren't getting it. It was great when we had our best players out there bar one or two winning us the tight games by a bit of extra quality but the injuries of our best players have really exposed Wenger's tactical inferiority compared to the best in the league. Our injuries aren't getting away so another change needs to be made.

That's why, if Wenger decides to continue, needs to get back to basics. Change formation, work with the players in the summer to get back to ultra attacking football again because let's be honest it's the only way Wenger knows how to win stuff. The difference between Arsenal 07/08, 10/11 and 14/15 is that now Wenger uses some more experience in defence and the players won't leave unless he wants them to.

The problem is, I can't see Wenger being motivated enough to do so much change and I fear he'll change nothing but splash some cash in the transfer window thinking that that will solve everything. It won't and that's why he should step down if he isn't motivated enough to change things even if we win the FA Cup and finish 4th.

[MJ]

that's not the same though.

If I understand right, the criticism towards Wenger is that he pays too little attention to adapting tactics relative to who you face.
Obviously I don't know if this is true, or in any case an exaggeration, but that would actually be an explanation to the away game debacles against top teams.
In my opinion a better exlanation than 'lacking mentality' or such diffuse nonsense.

You played the Liverpool game as if you hadn't seen the Everton loss at Anfield a couple of weeks before, or as if you decided to ignore it.
I wouldn't say it's far fetched to speculate for Wenger to be slighty too arrogant tacticswise.

I wasn't talking about preparation. I was referring to a Le Grove article that spawned the misconception that Wenger is totally ignorant of all tactical analyses including his own team's.

[Sponsored content]