Mercato Rossonero: Milan Transfer Activity Inside Out

•MilanDevil• wrote:@Dante, I strongly agree with you regarding De Jong and Montolivo. However, although De Jong has world-class defensive abilities, I don't think he is dynamic enough to play as a box to box midfielder similar to Gattuso; I hope I am proven wrong should De Jong play in Gattuso's position.

De Jong wants to play deeper , he has said so himself , it's not that he can't play b2b , he has played b2b before. He's very athletic , fast and his goal where he stole the ball in midfield and sprinted towards the keeper to score prove it , he can exist more up front alright. Gattuso never was anything special with the ball at his feet either , didn't bother us. He did his job , as i believe De Jong would do. He doesn't want to though. And with Montolivo playing deeper , we would also have better transitions , De Jong can fall back quicker and more often than Montolivo , with less impact on Monty's 'batteries' . We just tire Montolivo more to do things other players should be doing and bereft ourselves of his services at their maximum. All that to accomodate De Jong . Yes , De Jong had 1.5 year i saw what he can and cannot do. imo Montolivo there , please . I preffer to be able to play better football , first of all.

And De Jong has nothing world class in him . That misconception that since De Jong is one of our best means he's world class is beyond me .. One man's abilities will never be more than a team's plan on how to defend , saying he has world class defensive abilities means a team would have De Jong no matter what . When in reality , De Jong can't play as a regular in the best of the best teams right now , just because of his best traits. So no , nothing world class about him , when you ask me. I'd say his certainly high in the overall list , but not world class.

Forza wrote:Suso looks like a good player. Do we own him outright now?

As of right now you've just agreed to sign him at the end of his contract (which ends in 6 months time).

I think you're trying to sign him in this window though, why the whole thing is stalling.

And he's class.

He's not a right winger, actually looks a lot like David Silva when he cuts inside. Same sort of movement, same sort of vision, he's just an all round class player, just lacks an end product in terms of shooting. Just needs the experience really. He's ready for first team football.

That's very good news , thanks RA. Here's hoping we actually pay that something and bring him here sooner than later , although i don't particularly expect it to happen. It's Galliani we're talking , if he can save a cent , he will save it.

Have you seen what Liverpool is like in the market?

We'll probably end up just loaning him out to you guys for 6 months free of cost before it's official; we're downright stupid when it comes to transfers.

What's the movement like in the final third for Milan? He had a stint where he was playing next to Suarez and Sahin at one point when he was 18 and didn't look out of place at all. He goes on a whole other level when he plays with intelligent players / runs around him. His passing is unreal for his age. A great reader of the game and his surroundings. Well going forward.

His dribbling is sort of like Iniesta, amazing close ball control, but yeah definitely more in the mold of David Silva. Typical Spanish grace on the ball he sort of drags it on sometimes but I think he'll phase that out with age. He's represented Spain at every level bar the senior level, but I have no doubts he'll be in Spain's future when he gets consistent football in him. He's rejected both Barcelona and Real Madrid when he was a teenager to join our academy and was our equal best player with Sterling for years. I have no doubts he'll be a great signing for you. He can play in the middle as well.

As for his weaknesses, they are pretty much an inconsistent shot and he's heavily reliant on his left foot. He has a lack of pace too, but makes up with it with his skill and movement. Suspect defensively but again he is young, which leads on to an obvious lack of experience but that's all I can really think of tbh. I'm sure Arq will praise him in a post highly when it's official. He'll be a hit for you.

(In reply to Dante re: De Jong)

Firstly, I'm not sure why you are making out that a diamond midfield in a 4-4-2 is unheard of or doesn't exist. To set it out explicitly: CDM, RM/RCM, LM/LCM, CAM. Those are the components. The CDM can be either a destroyer or a DLP. The semantics of what is or isn't a diamond is irrelevant. Some people call it a 4-1-2-1-2, some people call it a 4-3-1-2 where the DM drops back. I only brought it up because I was referencing Ancelotti's use of the formation at Milan with Pirlo as the DLP - it's got nothing to do with our team now. Your critique of these different names of this midfield is besides the issue of De Jong's status in our squad and I'll leave it at that. If you truly don't believe the term "diamond midfield" exists, google it.

Now, to the substance of this debate...

I think that you are overly harsh on De Jong's passing. He's may not be Pirlo, but his passing is more than adequate for his role in the team. I checked the stats on this and his pass success percentage is 88.9% this season. Not bad. By comparison Montolivo's passes this season have only been successful 77.9% of the time. FYI, Pirlo's is 87.7% this season, which is extremely impressive for someone who makes so many forward passes. Back to the point: De Jong is certainly not a DLP and we shouldn't expect him to be. A CDM in the traditional sense does not need to get into crossing positions or regularly make assists. De Jong's role is simple: 1) get the ball and 2) distribute the ball. On both counts he is undeniably extremely effective.

Next up is your idea (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Montolivo should swap positions with De Jong and then we should replace De Jong with a Gattuso-style player? To this I say that there are 3 highly pertinent counter-arguments:

1) there is absolutely no evidence that Montolivo can emulate Pirlo's success in that position;
2) our team does not have the financial capability to replace De Jong with a better player;
3) this idea attempts to fix a problem doesn't exist, or is only of minimal concern, whilst there are much more pressing issues to deal with.

I think the idea of Monty at DLP is not practical. My contention is that there is no evidence that Montolivo would be any better if he were moved to the centre. Furthermore, De Jong's "elementary stuff" is usually giving the ball to the Montolivo himself -- it's not as if Monty is being denied supply. He's had plenty of the ball. I think the real problem here is that Montolivo has had 6 months out due to injury and is struggling to find form. Using this season's stats would be unfair to Monty because he's hardly played. But if we look back at last season, Monty only managed 4 assists. 4 assists. In a whole season. Only 4. To put that in perspective, Abate has already surpassed that this season. I don't believe that Monty's number of assists is going to increase, let alone triple, by making him a DLP. And at the same time we will create another weakness by having De Jong out of position at LM until a new player is bought.

Towards the end of your post it becomes more obvious that this idea of Monty at DLP is just a compromise. You would rather see De Jong dropped. I don't think we can reconcile our opinions on that issue. I think you have vastly overstated the opportunity cost of having De Jong on the field. You see him as a limited player and describe him in the same way I describe Essien. I think that's just plain unfair. Do I think De Jong would walk in to Bayern's midfield? Definitely not. But then again, not many would. What we can say is that De Jong is one of the best players of his type and that he was integral to the Dutch WC effort and continues to be integral to our team. The days of the traditional CDM are certainly not over, with most teams playing at least one of them in their starting XI (if not 2 in a 4-2-3-1).

In summary, this team has nothing to gain from Montolivo playing in the centre as opposed to his current position. Nor do I believe that this team will benefit from formation change or radical tactical change at the moment. What I would like to see is players in their natural positions. To move De Jong out of CDM would go against that philosophy. De Jong is obviously not a box-to-box midfielder. If we move Montolivo to the centre (which realistically, let's face it, is not going to happen any time soon) we will have created another weakness with no other midfielder of comparable quality available to play his former role.

Let's take a look at what you said : We don't play a diamond midfield anymore . You said this in response to my point , implying we need such a thing to use a dlp . I explained , it's not a prerequisite . Playing a DLP has almost nothing to do with it. You then go on saying i should google diamond midfield lol . Yeah , right . I responded in the way i did simply because the entire notion behind your response , on that part , was wrong .

Even going by your words , we still play a 'diamond midfield' , just not in the way you mentioned it. The 4-3-3 has a very clear diamond midfield , in case you didn't know that. Also , destroyer or DLP has very little to do with having a diamond midfield.. that's what i explained based on that ^^ , and your next response was far from the point , avoiding the matter . It is part of the substance when you say we can't play Montolivo there because we don't play a diamond midfield. Not only the notion is wrong , even the diamond is there . It still doesn't have to do with choosing over a destroyer or DLP.

The semantics aren't irrelevant , they exist for a reason. It may seem the same to most but it really isn't. It's mostly technical , there i agree , but there are differences. The 4-3-1-2 isn't the same as 4-1-2-1-2 . It may be the same in PES and FIFA , but in the game they have differences. There's 4-1-2-1-2 with wingers ; all of them may be variations of the 4-4-2 , but they aren't meaningless semantics like you say . You want to soak up pressure with 4-3-1-2 and look to counter attack , whereas in 4-1-2-1-2 you expect to occupy and dominate midfield through the number of players at any given time , using possesion to keep opponents at bay with constant pressure on the ball , being played at their half . And much more than can be said , but anyway . Not irrelevant , just meant for coaches to debate and analyse , on paper and on the pitch they may look almost identical , but there are difference which do change how the game unfolds.

Almost exact same formations , exact same players if you would like , different things tho . And once again , none of it has anything to do with having a destroyer or a dlp. A coach decides what he wants there , the formation doesn't demand anything . You said we don't play a diamond midfield so Montolivo there shouldn't be considered , i only explained that is wrong.

Moving on from that.

You bring De Jong's statistics up and compare them to Pirlo . That is certainly one of these times statistics don't even tell half the story. It is not the same thing , at all , and i really hope you know that. De Jong only does what Muntari and Essien have been doing there , he's just significantly better than those two . Pirlo is in an entire different league compared to how he uses the ball in contrast to De Jong. Pirlo dictates with the ball . The quality gap and the impact their play in the same area has in the game is quite huge. De Jong will never offer a glimpse of Pirlo's playmaking , his passes are always playing it the safest way , by default not allowing attacks to even begin, which is something pretty much even Essien does , with the occasional serious mistake of course . Please don't bring De Jong's passing statistics on the table on this matter , as it's only half of what Pirlo or dlp in general do.

No we shouldn't replace De Jong with a Gattuso style player . De Jong is enough Gattuso style player , just worse. Gattuso could play b2b as well and didn't need a definite area to function . De Jong doesn't want to play elsewhere.

Yes there is evidence of Montolivo succeeding in that role , 2nd half of 12-13 , in case you missed it. Much better than anything De Jong has shown there. Saying he can't emulate Pirlo's success in that role is supposed to mean what exactly? From where else of the old guard do you have such expectations on a player? All i say is we need that kind of play . And Montolivo has delivered his best stint at Milan in that position. When the guy himself says that's where he likes to play and feels best , i am not sure why i am still debating this whole thing tbh.  

It's not about fixing a hypothetical problem , De Jong isn't a problem in itself. It's a matter of football ideals , which for DECADES we had and now we lack. Wanting a DLP there doesn't have to do with De Jong's quality , i am more than satisfied with De Jong. It has to do with a better Milan . Better football . De Jong as a player doesn't allow that , from there . Montolivo would and has , in fact . Saying twice there's no evidence , not sure how to respond. Don't you remember the 2nd half of 12-13?? If Montolivo's best stint at Milan wasn't enough evidence , i really don't know what would be .

Moving on , it has nothing to do with Montolivo lacking supply , nor how much assists he could get. Never mentioned any of that , simply because assists and lack of supply isn't why i want a DLP there. It's about the flow of our play , the safety of mind for everyone , the quality of pass Montolivo would offer , the faster play in front of Monto being DLP , allowing opportunities to exist in the first place. You don't play a DLP for assists . Not sure why you bring Abate and his assists , irrelevant in this discussion.. I don't agree with the point you're trying to make by using assists and Abate and Monty as DLP . DLP's assists are just a slight bonus , you don't demand assists from that player nor does anyone play a DLP for assists.

Compromise? Having our best midfielder playing where he should be playing , where he would have chosen if it was up to him , is compromise? Following in the steps of the best , something we had for decades , is a compromise? A compromise is having the versatile Montolivo playing elsewhere to accomodate De Jong who doesn't want to play anywhere else . That's the only compromise that really exists. As for the Dutch NT and all , yeah, i am not saying De Jong is a bad player or that he wasn't clutch in the world cup. But so were many players suited for such tournaments. So was Sneijder and other players , even Zapata was decent lol . Why should i care when i know we can be better than that?

You say you want players to play their natural positions and you don't think a formation change is necessary or anything. Well , guess what , Montolivo should ideally be playing there in De Jong's place . De Jong would have been dropped , your wish being granted . The only positive solution would be the pivot , so both would play where they should be playing. Our best central midfielders are these two anyway , why not use just these 2 and have a more attacking flair up front. But Inzaghi doesn't do that and yes , i do agree Inzaghi won't drop or play De Jong elsewhere.  

My point though doesn't have to do with 4-2-3-1. It has to do with our real best midfielder doing his best and the principal of the dlp and what he brings on the table . I argue Montolivo is worthy enough and we lack all that because of De Jong , not that De Jong is a problem per say. What happens to De Jong should be going in 2nd fate. We wouldn't even have this conversation if Montolivo was less versatile , or De Jong more versatile.

In any case , let's just agree to disagree ; i want a DLP instead of a destroyer because reasons (not "nostalgia" , no) , you want a destroyer because reasons . Ok. As for being harsh , well , it really doesn't have to do with De Jong , sometimes i am harsh sometimes i am the opposite. The core of what i have to say doesn't change though , just the way. Once again , just because De Jong has been doing well doesn't exclude the possibility that it could be better , or that we should need a destroyer there. Our defence mostly sucks anyway , the point is we should be playing better and DLP would improve our fortunes . You obviously are concerned with the defensive side of things , which is the team's issue , never one mans. Best defences in the world have a DLP there , not a coincedence. When you have a destroyer there , is like inviting pressure and attacks. You want to be attacked , whereas the other choice , forces pressure and attacks. Suddenly you defend less . You doubt Montolivo can pull it off? That's fine. From what i saw , he can pull it off , he can pull it off very well .

In my opinion Monto played his best football in 3 years at Milan when he was played deeper in the second half of 12/13 when De Jong was injured, and maybe I'm too harsh on De Jong, but that was much better than everything De Jong did at Milan and probably one of the reasons why that was the last time you qualified for the CL and kept a title challenge point average (if it wasn't for Amelia gifting a penalty in Juventus Stadium you would've had more points than them in the second half of that season).

If I was Milan's coach I'd play with a 4-2-3-1 because it would allow Monto to be the playmaker and having him closer to De Jong would facilitate him since he usually played the best football of his career in a 2 man pivot (Holland, City, last season with Seedorf) plus I've seen Poli with Samp in 2010, the main stars were Cassano and Pazzini and he was still a teenager back then, but in a 2 man midfield he was always very composed on the ball, always made the right play, had tactical awareness had incredible energy and stamina, was very disciplined defensively in Del Neri's rigid 4-4-2, dominating opponent's midfields with Palombo/Semioli/Mannini as teammates. Plus that's probably the best way to accomodate the attacking players with Menez supported by ES, Honda and Cerci with Bonaventura that can play anywhere behind the striker.

However I don't think either is going to happen as I was listening to Pippo's words before the match against Sassuolo and when asked "Is it possible that Montolivo will play in De Jong's role? Or you always prefer a destroyer like De Jong or Essien?" he answered "there's a reason I always play De Jong and Essien" and that's what happened.

I think that the comparisons between Montolivo and De Jong are getting a bit too abstract here. I'm sure that we all agree that they are different types of player - this is not in dispute. This entire debate began because we were talking about the potential sale of De Jong. I thought this was a terrible idea considering that he is one of our best players. In response, the idea that Montolivo would be used in De Jong's position should the latter depart was suggested. My opinion is that we need a player of De Jong's type in our midfield, whatever formation we play. It is also my opinion that De Jong is one of the highest calibre players of his type. Furthermore, I suggested that moving Montolivo deeper is unlikely to change anything. To build on this argument, I'd like to suggest that the most pressing problem in our midfield is that they are incapable of providing enough assists for our forwards, nor do they provide enough of a goal-threat.

Our current midfield's Serie A stats while at Milan:

14-15
Montolivo: 330 mins, 0 goals, 0 assists
Poli: 907 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
De Jong: 1170 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
Muntari: 730 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists

13-14
Montolivo: 2413 mins, 3 goals, 4 assists
Poli: 1540 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
De Jong: 2800 mins, 2 goals, 3 assists
Muntari: 1574 mins, 5 goals, 2 assists

12-13:
Montolivo: 2708 mins, 4 goals, 1 assist
Poli: -
De Jong: 898 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
Muntari: 1019 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists

Now, please don't write back and say that stats are only telling part of the picture - of course that's true. However, what is undeniable is that our midfield is not good at creating chances for our forwards. This is a significant problem and it needs to be fixed. The crucial question for me is what is to be done about the lack of assists coming from midfield? I'm not sure of the answer, but I think Montolivo playing deeper is not part of that solution. De Jong and Muntari's role has never been to provide assists or goals. My allegation is specifically that Montolivo and Poli have not been pulling their load in this regard and that they both need to improve their output.

Katy Perry wrote:In my opinion Monto played his best football in 3 years at Milan when he was played deeper in the second half of 12/13 when De Jong was injured, and maybe I'm too harsh on De Jong, but that was much better than everything De Jong did at Milan and probably one of the reasons why that was the last time you qualified for the CL and kept a title challenge point average (if it wasn't for Amelia gifting a penalty in Juventus Stadium you would've had more points than them in the second half of that season).

If I was Milan's coach I'd play with a 4-2-3-1 because it would allow Monto to be the playmaker and having him closer to De Jong would facilitate him since he usually played the best football of his career in a 2 man pivot (Holland, City, last season with Seedorf) plus I've seen Poli with Samp in 2010, the main stars were Cassano and Pazzini and he was still a teenager back then, but in a 2 man midfield he was always very composed on the ball, always made the right play, had tactical awareness had incredible energy and stamina, was very disciplined defensively in Del Neri's rigid 4-4-2, dominating opponent's midfields with Palombo/Semioli/Mannini as teammates. Plus that's probably the best way to accomodate the attacking players with Menez supported by ES, Honda and Cerci with Bonaventura that can play anywhere behind the striker.

However I don't think either is going to happen as I was listening to Pippo's words before the match against Sassuolo and when asked "Is it possible that Montolivo will play in De Jong's role? Or you always prefer a destroyer like De Jong or Essien?" he answered "there's a reason I always play De Jong and Essien" and that's what happened.

Yeap . I agree 100% . +1 for refreshing my memory about Poli from his days in Samp , had forgotten about it all. Yes , Poli is certainly capable of adding important depth to 4-2-3-1 , if we went down that road. Inzaghi probably won't though. He likes the 4-3-3 in particular and even then , he has used many different formations. I do agree with idea of the 4-2-3-1 though , especially with Cerci here , and , eventually , Suso. We should have quite too many attacking kind of players for just 4-3-3 play and it would also solve the issue with Montolivo as well.

As for this ,

Let me just say i am glad for those reporters who ask the real questions . As for his answer , well , if Inzaghi didn't talk about it then he's not allowed to , otherwise he would be more open about it. I wouldn't exclude the very real possibility he's been told to play them consistently so that we can sell them for better money . That , or he's implying how shit our defence is and these two are supposed to be the ones who balance the whole situation , apparently . If that's the case then i would be particularly dissapointed with him , but , i do find the later hard to believe , simply because he knows pretty well that's not really how things work. You can put the best destroyer out there in front of the defence , if the defence is shit , the defence is shit , one man won't turn the tides around . Not sure what he means there , there's a reason . I've learned to stomach De Jong , but Essien? What possible reason that would be?

Something tells me though , from his answer , that he's not exactly opposite with the idea of Montolivo playing where he really should be playing .. which should be great news , if i am right and he does think like that .

I think that it's pretty far-fetched to suggest that a new coach who is struggling for results is putting players out there week after week just to raise their price tag. I also think that it's unlikely that Pippo will change his formation. I agree with you both in that Essien is total garbage and adds nothing to the team, but De Jong is a completely different case. Considering that he didn't even play in our last game (due to accumulation of yellow cards) it is unlikely that he will be dropped. He's done nothing to warrant being left out of the team and he wasn't part of what was arguably our worst performance this season, when we slumped to a 2-1 loss at home to Sassuolo after taking an early lead. Realistically, you can't expect De Jong to be sold. The only way I could see him leaving is if a good offer came in for him or if he was unhappy at the club (which is understandable) and decided not to renew his contract.

Forza wrote:I think that the comparisons between Montolivo and De Jong are getting a bit too abstract here. I'm sure that we all agree that they are different types of player - this is not in dispute. This entire debate began because we were talking about the potential sale of De Jong. I thought this was a terrible idea considering that he is one of our best players. In response, the idea that Montolivo would be used in De Jong's position should the latter depart was suggested. My opinion is that we need a player of De Jong's type in our midfield, whatever formation we play. It is also my opinion that De Jong is one of the highest calibre players of his type. Furthermore, I suggested that moving Montolivo deeper is unlikely to change anything. To build on this argument, I'd like to suggest that the most pressing problem in our midfield is that they are incapable of providing enough assists for our forwards, nor do they provide enough of a goal-threat.

Our current midfield's Serie A stats while at Milan:

14-15
Montolivo: 330 mins, 0 goals, 0 assists
Poli: 907 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
De Jong: 1170 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
Muntari: 730 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists

13-14
Montolivo: 2413 mins, 3 goals, 4 assists
Poli: 1540 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
De Jong: 2800 mins, 2 goals, 3 assists
Muntari: 1574 mins, 5 goals, 2 assists

12-13:
Montolivo: 2708 mins, 4 goals, 1 assist
Poli: -
De Jong: 898 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
Muntari: 1019 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists

Now, please don't write back and say that stats are only telling part of the picture - of course that's true. However, what is undeniable is that our midfield is not good at creating chances for our forwards. This is a significant problem and it needs to be fixed. The crucial question for me is what is to be done about the lack of assists coming from midfield? I'm not sure of the answer, but I think Montolivo playing deeper is not part of that solution. De Jong and Muntari's role has never been to provide assists or goals. My allegation is specifically that Montolivo and Poli have not been pulling their load in this regard and that they both need to improve their output.

-Except that it does help. It did help in 12/13 and you know why? Because the 90 % accuracy stats is irrelevant, even Chiellini has that because they both play elementary passes, when De Jong does the same predictable 5 yard 90% accuracy pass, who receives the ball is in the same position that De Jong was and the only thing different is that you lost some seconds and the opposite team has gained shape.With someone like Montolivo there you gain those seconds, you gain someone who maybe doesn't make the final pass, but puts another in a position to do it, you gain someone who can launch coumterattacks, someone who gives unpredictability to the play, who can distribute the ball on the left and right flank and not only 5 yard away, who doesn't hide from the ball but is the one who asks to have it, someone who doesn't just wallow in his comfort zone but who actually moves in more favourable position.
But yea, this is very abstract as Pippo seems to have no intention to change the opinion that you share with him.

Forza wrote:I think that the comparisons between Montolivo and De Jong are getting a bit too abstract here. I'm sure that we all agree that they are different types of player - this is not in dispute. This entire debate began because we were talking about the potential sale of De Jong. I thought this was a terrible idea considering that he is one of our best players. In response, the idea that Montolivo would be used in De Jong's position should the latter depart was suggested. My opinion is that we need a player of De Jong's type in our midfield, whatever formation we play. It is also my opinion that De Jong is one of the highest calibre players of his type. Furthermore, I suggested that moving Montolivo deeper is unlikely to change anything. To build on this argument, I'd like to suggest that the most pressing problem in our midfield is that they are incapable of providing enough assists for our forwards, nor do they provide enough of a goal-threat.

Our current midfield's Serie A stats while at Milan:

14-15
Montolivo: 330 mins, 0 goals, 0 assists
Poli: 907 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
De Jong: 1170 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
Muntari: 730 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists

13-14
Montolivo: 2413 mins, 3 goals, 4 assists
Poli: 1540 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
De Jong: 2800 mins, 2 goals, 3 assists
Muntari: 1574 mins, 5 goals, 2 assists

12-13:
Montolivo: 2708 mins, 4 goals, 1 assist
Poli: -
De Jong: 898 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
Muntari: 1019 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists

Now, please don't write back and say that stats are only telling part of the picture - of course that's true. However, what is undeniable is that our midfield is not good at creating chances for our forwards. This is a significant problem and it needs to be fixed. The crucial question for me is what is to be done about the lack of assists coming from midfield? I'm not sure of the answer, but I think Montolivo playing deeper is not part of that solution. De Jong and Muntari's role has never been to provide assists or goals. My allegation is specifically that Montolivo and Poli have not been pulling their load in this regard and that they both need to improve their output.

About Poli i agree , but i am not sure i can blame him either , one week he's in the other is out. He's not exactly a regular tbh. As for Montolivo , i am sure you regard him as a technical , creative player . A quality player in front of the defence , that leaves 2 spots in the 4-3-3 to add at least one more . And if Muntari ain't playing , by default we are allowed to be dangerous from the midfield. In 4-2-3-1 , well , that would leave us with just 2 good central midfielders and 4 attacking options up front , which would share the load of assists between them.

Now , why the midfield provides so little in terms of assists , that has many factors to consider , including the forwards who may(they're not) not be lethal . In general lines , most of our midfield works to soak up pressure and destroy , so naturally it won't produce assists for the forwards . If you really want assists tbh , you should be in favour of a more technical midfield , not wanting a destroyer and all that. Not because a DLP will provide assists , certainly not the majority ; he will provide foundations for it to be created.

Like i said earlier , just by having a destroyer you expect to occupy your time more with interupting the other one's play . So naturally , this archetype doesn't really allow the best circumstances to have a creative midfield , one that would produce better numbers when it comes to assists , that all in very general terms.

Even if we go beyond the stats, and I know you watch games pretty regularly, how many times do you see one of our midfielders play a successful pass through an opposition defence? Very rarely, imo.

Katy Perry wrote:

Forza wrote:I think that the comparisons between Montolivo and De Jong are getting a bit too abstract here. I'm sure that we all agree that they are different types of player - this is not in dispute. This entire debate began because we were talking about the potential sale of De Jong. I thought this was a terrible idea considering that he is one of our best players. In response, the idea that Montolivo would be used in De Jong's position should the latter depart was suggested. My opinion is that we need a player of De Jong's type in our midfield, whatever formation we play. It is also my opinion that De Jong is one of the highest calibre players of his type. Furthermore, I suggested that moving Montolivo deeper is unlikely to change anything. To build on this argument, I'd like to suggest that the most pressing problem in our midfield is that they are incapable of providing enough assists for our forwards, nor do they provide enough of a goal-threat.

Our current midfield's Serie A stats while at Milan:

14-15
Montolivo: 330 mins, 0 goals, 0 assists
Poli: 907 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
De Jong: 1170 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
Muntari: 730 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists

13-14
Montolivo: 2413 mins, 3 goals, 4 assists
Poli: 1540 mins, 2 goals, 0 assists
De Jong: 2800 mins, 2 goals, 3 assists
Muntari: 1574 mins, 5 goals, 2 assists

12-13:
Montolivo: 2708 mins, 4 goals, 1 assist
Poli: -
De Jong: 898 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists
Muntari: 1019 mins, 1 goal, 0 assists

Now, please don't write back and say that stats are only telling part of the picture - of course that's true. However, what is undeniable is that our midfield is not good at creating chances for our forwards. This is a significant problem and it needs to be fixed. The crucial question for me is what is to be done about the lack of assists coming from midfield? I'm not sure of the answer, but I think Montolivo playing deeper is not part of that solution. De Jong and Muntari's role has never been to provide assists or goals. My allegation is specifically that Montolivo and Poli have not been pulling their load in this regard and that they both need to improve their output.

-Except that it does help. It did help in 12/13 and you know why? Because the 90 % accuracy stats is irrelevant, even Chiellini has that because they both play elementary passes, when De Jong does the same predictable 5 yard 90% accuracy pass, who receives the ball is in the same position that De Jong was and the only thing different is that you lost some seconds and the opposite team has gained shape.With someone like Montolivo there you gain those seconds, you gain someone who maybe doesn't make the final pass, but puts another in a position to do it, you gain someone who can launch coumterattacks, someone who gives unpredictability to the play, who can distribute the ball on the left and right flank and not only 5 yard away, who doesn't hide from the ball but is the one who asks to have it, someone who doesn't just wallow in his comfort zone but who actually moves in more favourable position.
But yea, this is very abstract as Pippo seems to have no intention to change the opinion that you share with him.

Pretty much what i think , fully agreed . Pretty much what i ideally want to see in football , let alone from my team. De Jong simply cannot offer any of that. Montolivo has done that and can do it again.

Forza wrote:I think that it's pretty far-fetched to suggest that a new coach who is struggling for results is putting players out there week after week just to raise their price tag. I also think that it's unlikely that Pippo will change his formation. I agree with you both in that Essien is total garbage and adds nothing to the team, but De Jong is a completely different case. Considering that he didn't even play in our last game (due to accumulation of yellow cards) it is unlikely that he will be dropped. He's done nothing to warrant being left out of the team and he wasn't part of what was arguably our worst performance this season, when we slumped to a 2-1 loss at home to Sassuolo after taking an early lead. Realistically, you can't expect De Jong to be sold. The only way I could see him leaving is if a good offer came in for him or if he was unhappy at the club (which is understandable) and decided not to renew his contract.

Well , if we aren't going to be playing 4-2-3-1 , to have De Jong there too.. then yes , i expect a good offer to come at some point and we part ways. I've read somewhere Schalke is interested , not sure how real it is , but seems like a good destination for him . As for if Inzaghi is playing them so we can raise their price , i am not sure why you doubt that. It's one thing to bring in results , there i also agree , but if the management has taken such a decision , probably with Inzaghi involved , i don't see why not. This kind of situation exists all over the place in football and i am pretty sure Essien is leaving in the summer anyway and he has already played much more than i really expected him to play , tbh.

I'm not liking this. Inter just signed Shaqire. Come on management, get an effin defender for Gods sake.

M99 wrote:I'm not liking this. Inter just signed Shaqire. Come on management, get an effin defender for Gods sake.

This x100.

Agreed , even though solid defenders are a bit hard to get in January . You mean a LB , CB , or just about any good defender ?

Read Nastasic is close to Schalke btw and that Milan is supposedly interested in Palermo's Munoz . According to reports , we're 'always' interested in Vangioni . There's probably more out there but i think it's all just rumours . There may have been some interest before the break , but nothing really to the point ever since .

Here's hoping we do get at least one important player , cause Inter have proven they are getting serious with these transfers . If we don't answer back in kind , we can almost forget about the 3rd place tbh . Cerci was fantastic news but won't be enough now..

I'd say it's almost imperative we make one more important transfer after Inter got Shaqiri.

Dante wrote:Agreed , even though solid defenders are a bit hard to get in January . You mean a LB , CB , or just about any good defender ?

Read Nastasic is close to Schalke btw and that Milan is supposedly interested in Palermo's Munoz . According to reports , we're 'always' interested in Vangioni . There's probably more out there but i think it's all just rumours . There may have been some interest before the break , but nothing really to the point ever since .

Here's hoping we do get at least one important player , cause Inter have proven they are getting serious with these transfers . If we don't answer back in kind , we can almost forget about the 3rd place tbh . Cerci was fantastic news but won't be enough now..

I'd say it's almost imperative we make one more important transfer after Inter got Shaqiri.

Who would you prioritize? a CB? a LB? another position?

As for Munoz I think he's another Zapata, a fast, strong, athletic CB but a very reckless and error prone, but in June he's going to be a free player so we all know how it's going to end

We need to get rid of a defender first instead of just stockpiling.

I'd want Zapata gone, and get one of Nasta/Balanta/any other left-footed CB

Knowing Milan we'd probably get Paletta

lol true that . Agreed somewhat on Munoz , tbh i still don't know if rate him or what. I mean , i am not sure if he's capable of improving or like you said , just another Zapata , for good.

Who i would prioritize.. in reality and being realistic about it , we're not getting any CB in January . Rami , Mexes , Alex , Zapata and also Bonera , yeah , there's absolutely 0% we get any CB unless one of them is going to leave in January , which won't happen as far as i can tell.

Personally i would look to get a solid CF lol . Fixing the defence in January with signings is only going to work so much. Unless there's a very clear opportunity Milan could exploit, i am not sure what we can realisticaly expect. Vangioni may be worth it , but is he going to worth it that much more than De Sciglio or Armero ?? Or is he going to end up as bench material .. probably the 2nd.

Abate renewed so.. IF Armero is going to leave , then a LB is indeed priority. If he doesn't , we should really look for a very good CF and also get rid of Pazzini as a result. Menez isn't enough on his own and Pazzini and Niang are pathetic really. So indeed a CF should definitely be in our plans , but it will depend on a lot of things , i certainly don't expect much.

What would you want to see from Milan in January btw?

I'd like to add that it'd be best if we can get a competent LB that can give MDS a run for his money....considering his recent form, it might give him the exigence to play better.

As for who i'd like to see, i think we need striker who's skillset is different from Menez offering different things in attack, or, at the very least (if we cant), try and get a vice-Menez.

Also, like Forza said before, we're just doing Chelsea's development for MvG. If the its true that his loan might get terminated, then i'd like us to pursue Brozovic/Baselli.

Priorities:
1. CB. Hell, why stop at 1? Buy 2 CBs if you can.
2. Someone to play in midfield should Montolivo/De Jong/Poli get injured. Basically, I never want to see Essien on the field for Milan again.
3. Offload all that junk that we still have. See this thread... http://www.goallegacy.net/t36100-the-hit-list

Most of the players on the hit list are on loan ffs, we might have to get rid of them again in summer

El Shaarawy wrote:Most of the players on the hit list are on loan ffs, we might have to get rid of them again in summer

Surely some of their contracts expire by then, so they will just be released, although I haven't looked this up.

Suso is exactly the type of signing Milan should do, a young player with tons of potential that can make an istant impact like El Sha, Poli, Bonaventura or cheap transfers but of first team players in their prime such as Menez, Rami, Lopez, Cerci. You can't buy scrubs or finished players if you want to return to CL, you don't have the Ibras, the Thiago Silvas anymore, there are good players, but not elite players that carryhe team, improve everyone around and win games by themselves and obviously you can't afford to buy those because there's no money. Actually it's not accurate to say there's no money, the money is there. Last season Barbara said that the same Atletico Madrid that won la Liga and trashed the same Milan on their route to the CL final spent LESS money than Milan, implying that there's a problem of management of the resources and not quantity of resources (which is why she almost fired Galliani). I mean you're currently the third team on wages in Serie A, and you can't really expect to spend more money than Atletico Madrid, than Roma and Juventus with debts, with FFP and the lack of CL money you would expect from a club who's 3rd on yearly salary in Italy.

Yes, there is money. The club is not completely broke. The problem is investment in too many players like Essien and not enough players like Suso.

Instead of going for players who are 1) young; 2) have potential; and 3) are cheap, we take players who are 1) old; 2) have no potential; and 3) demand high wages.

Your post has reminded me of something I forgot to raise before when we were talking about "world class" players. Milan do not need world class players. To beat teams like Sassuolo, all we need is a capable squad. Ideally, these players should be starlets who have the potential to become world class and others who are older, but still good in their position. It seems that Galliani buys too many players based on their name instead of proper scouting. Players like Mexes, Essien and Torres were finished when we bought them. If we had made an organised, coordinated investment in youth 5 years ago, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.