Re: Jose Mourinho: I admire Arsene Wenger and Arsenal, who are loyal in bad moments - of which there were a lot

by The_Badger Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:40 pm

Blue wrote:
The_Badger wrote:
che wrote:i read the last two pages where abramovich is confusing himself, saying that entertainment isn't important because you'd just stop supporting your team if they played like shit, but trophies are important, but apparently it doesn't follow that if trophies were so important there would be a lot more gloryhunters than there is right now

But there is a lot of gloryhunters. You only need go to South East Asia and see the Chelsea support that exists there that didn't pre-Abramovich.

Maybe the fact Chelsea is probably on TV in South East Asia then pre abra days.

Chelsea's games were still broadcast before he came along.

by Onyx Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:50 pm

donttreadonred wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:There's 2 different discussions going on here.

First one is 'why you support a team and watch it'.

Second is 'how you judge a manager or club'.

The second one is clear, trophies.
So, for example, should the manager of Aston Villa, Hull, or Southampton be fired, because he failed to win a trophy?

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot judge a manager or club by trophies alone. That's asinine. Managers are judged just the same as any employee of a major organization: by goals and achievements. These goals are usually agreed upon at regular intervals, and the employee's achievements are measured against them after the interval is completed. Does that mean that the employee will be fired if they don't meet the specified goals? Not necessarily, but it's far more likely in football than other areas. Only the organization and the manager are necessarily privy to the goals set.

We, as supporters, often project our own goals and objectives (as well as biases) upon the manager. It's important that we realize this. Moreover, it's important to realize that your personal goals for the manager/club may not align with what the club management has set. Only severe unrest or perceived, gross negligence/incompetence can override management's goals and force a change to be made.

It depends on the size of the club. If it's a big club, it's easy for everyone to realise that they're expected to win trophies.

by Blue Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:09 pm

The_Badger wrote:
Blue wrote:
The_Badger wrote:

But there is a lot of gloryhunters. You only need go to South East Asia and see the Chelsea support that exists there that didn't pre-Abramovich.

Maybe the fact Chelsea is probably on TV in South East Asia then pre abra days.

Chelsea's games were still broadcast before he came along.

Hard to believe, For example here in the US you might have caught a Chelsea game 2-3 in a season, then i remember in 2005-2008 they were on at least every other week. Now they are on every week.

Trophies bring exposure and marketing, but i simply do not believe one simply follows a team because they win. A lot of people around the world follows big teams because they get a lot of exposure in those countries.

by The_Badger Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:35 pm

Blue wrote:
The_Badger wrote:
Blue wrote:

Maybe the fact Chelsea is probably on TV in South East Asia then pre abra days.

Chelsea's games were still broadcast before he came along.

Hard to believe, For example here in the US you might have caught a Chelsea game 2-3 in a season, then i remember in 2005-2008 they were on at least every other week. Now they are on every week.

Trophies bring exposure and marketing, but i simply do not believe one simply follows a team because they win. A lot of people around the world follows big teams because they get a lot of exposure in those countries.

So where are all the WBA and Swansea fans in Thailand and Malaysia?

It's the same here in England as it is elsewhere; people follow the successful clubs for that very reason. I seen it on my own doorstep in the NE England where people followed Man Utd, Liverpool and to a lesser extent Leeds because they clubs that won.

Now there's Chelsea fan groups popping up here for that very same reason.

by donttreadonred Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:14 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:It depends on the size of the club. If it's a big club, it's easy for everyone to realise that they're expected to win trophies.

Thanks for making my point, though it's not universally true.

If it's a bigger club, it's perfectly obvious that a measurable goal is to win trophies in most cases. Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, etc. all go into any given season expecting to win something.

However, take the curious case of Manchester United in this transitional season. Did you think they were going to sack Moyes if he didn't win a trophy? They are about as big a club as they come, but there are extenuating circumstances.

Moreover, not every club has as clear an aim as those clubs. Some want to stay up; some want safety as soon as possible; and some want European football. It's difficult to know what the explicit goals for a manager/club are in these cases, unless they are publicly stated for the media. Even then, I would take them with a grain of salt.

by Onyx Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:22 pm

donttreadonred wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:It depends on the size of the club. If it's a big club, it's easy for everyone to realise that they're expected to win trophies.
Thanks for making my point, though it's not universally true.

If it's a bigger club, it's perfectly obvious that a measurable goal is to win trophies in most cases. Chelsea, Manchester City, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, etc. all go into any given season expecting to win something.

However, take the curious case of Manchester United in this transitional season. Did you think they were going to sack Moyes if he didn't win a trophy? They are about as big a club as they come, but there are extenuating circumstances.

Moreover, not every club has as clear an aim as those clubs. Some want to stay up; some want safety as soon as possible; and some want European football. It's difficult to know what the explicit goals for a manager/club are in these cases, unless they are publicly stated for the media. Even then, I would take them with a grain of salt.

The discussion here is what matters at the end of the day for a top club and how a manager should be judged. Should they be judged on trophies or style of play/his length of time at the club? The answer is trophies.

Obviously every club will have different circumstances, but let's just suppose every top club has similar objectives.

In terms of Moyes, everyone knows he was appointed for the long term. So if he doesn't win anything within the next few seasons, then many will think he has failed.

by Freeza Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:28 pm

Managers are not judged on trophies, it's a part of it. They are judged on their abilities to manage the squad, win games, and play some good football and/or successful football. Trophies are not the be all and end all.

by Onyx Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:36 pm

Let's say Real Madrid under Ancelotti played good football, he managed the squad well, but he didn't win any trophies, would he keep his job?

Obviously in the past managers have been sacked even while winning trophies, but at the end of the day trophies are the main thing.

by Freeza Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:43 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Let's say Real Madrid under Ancelotti played good football, he managed the squad well, but he didn't win any trophies, would he keep his job?

Obviously in the past managers have been sacked even while winning trophies, but at the end of the day trophies are the main thing.

Let's say Real Madrid under Capello played some horrific football, he didn't manage the squad that well, but he won a trophy, would he keep his job?

oh, wait...
Am I doing this right?

by Donuts Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:Let's say Real Madrid under Ancelotti played good football, he managed the squad well, but he didn't win any trophies, would he keep his job?

Obviously in the past managers have been sacked even while winning trophies, but at the end of the day trophies are the main thing.

Mourinho lost his job not because of lack of trophies but because the shit reputation he left Madrid with
poking a guy with cancer's eye
making fun of every other manager
starting a fight inside the locker room
etc etc

by Onyx Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:56 pm

Freeza wrote:
Yohan Modric wrote:Let's say Real Madrid under Ancelotti played good football, he managed the squad well, but he didn't win any trophies, would he keep his job?

Obviously in the past managers have been sacked even while winning trophies, but at the end of the day trophies are the main thing.

Let's say Real Madrid under Capello played some horrific football, he didn't manage the squad that well, but he won a trophy, would he keep his job?

oh, wait...
Am I doing this right?

Yeh as I said, it has happened in the past. But if Perez for example had to choose between trophies, style, or management, he would choose trophies.

Anyway we're not judging them based on whether they're going to lose their job or not, we're judging them on the things that they have accomplished.

Wenger vs Mourinho, what do we judge them on? Longevity/style of play or trophies? Clearly trophies, because it shows who was more successful.

by Helmer Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:47 pm

by che Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:50 pm

so basically wenger's career collapsed in its second half? hmm...

by Nishankly Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:10 pm

I can already see Draxler being Arsenal's marquee signing in the summer. rofl

by Red Alert Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:36 am

by Helmer Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:47 am

I simply admire Wenger :bow:

by Red Alert Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:51 am

Just to be clear, this is for AWAY GAMES only.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:54 am

aaah ok!!

I was wondering that, because clearly the number of games is too low, should be 30 else.

by LuckAndWin Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:09 am

I can't blame Jose Mourinho regarding with this one since he's proving that his side are credible to win the Premier League title. But we'll see on how he will face PSG and the Premier League silverware.

by futbol Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:26 am

It's not Wenger's fault. Losing prime Fabregas is like losing prime Maradona.

Imagine if he had Fabregas.

---------------------------Benzema----------------------------
Ox---------------------------Özil-----------------------Walcott
----------------------------------------------------------------
-----some big black defensive dude--------Fabregas-------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Gibbs----------------Merte-------------Koscielny----------Sagna

GOAT team. :bow:

by Sponsored content