*A+ Players* Which players would you rely on in a big game?

LOL at more people putting Drogba up there instead of Messi and Ronaldo.  I hope it's because people are tired of talking about Messi and Ronaldo because they make Drogba's goal scoring record at Chelsea look like a joke.

Both Messi and Ronaldo are about to break the all time Champions League scoring records and this forum would claim they suck and are finished if they put up the kind of goal return Drogba did in his Chelsea career.  If either of them put up Drogba type numbers they would be sold.

In fact there are numerous posts on here saying how Messi is finished or has regressed because he's not scoring at more than a goal per game clip, even though he's responsible for scoring or setting up almost 2 goals per game this year.

The CL being the biggest club stage and Messi/Ronaldo about to break the goal scoring record plus scoring in 2 Champions League finals each pretty much cement's there status.

In fact in one season Messi bagged half of what Drogba did in 8 seasons at Chelsea.

But then you take into account Messi's 21 goals against Real Madrid, Ronaldo's 14 against Barcelona etc etc etc.

The pace Ronaldo's on now and the absolute tear he's been on for the last 8 years.

There are only two answers to this question.  Messi and Ronaldo.

Everyone else is child's play when it comes to big game performances.

Anyone nominating another player better never say a bad thing again about either one of these individuals.

Really the question should be outside of Messi and Ronaldo who do you think is a big game player? Everyone else is a mere afterthought which people in this generation IMO take for granted what the two of them are accomplishing.

Dnmac4 wrote:Really the question should be outside of Messi and Ronaldo who do you think is a big game player?  Everyone else is a mere afterthought which people in this generation IMO take for granted what the two of them are accomplishing.

Neither Messi nor CR7 are able to save goals, so for all of them being big game players, if their teams concede too many goals, it won't help them, if they don't have a goalie around who can step up, too.  

Dnmad is always so passionate

Dnmac is right about one thing tho. No players at Ronaldo or Messi level exist right now. Fortunately or unfortunately Ballon D'Or doesn't work like that.

Well, for a big game you need to have players of all poositions, so with the above topic one should take that into consideration, too.

My view is that players of Ronaldo & Messi category are undoubtable in this thread are not based solely because of what position they play but more based on the staure of their game.

However, I realize, that GK's and Defenders are overlooked and I mean vastly overlooked. Heck, in these forums I've even heard that Pepe & David Luiz aren't even WC and that Courtois is just a scrub. Really guys? That's some Goal.com shizz, IMO. Aside from that, tho, even if there were (and there has been), GK's and Defenders at Ronalessi level they will always be overlooked sadly. The only player who was saved of this discrimination was Cannavaro back in 2006. But even then, can one argue that Khan & Maldini were at any point in their careers worth winning the Balon D'Or themselves? Absolutely. And yet, as it was then as it is now, these players are overlooked mainly based on their position. Right now tho, there is no Maldini or Khan level GKs or DFs (except maybe Neuer), so really, that only leaves Ronalessi. Again, not saying those 2 because of their position. I only believe right now it's those 2 merely because of the level of play they exhibit.

Actually, Oliver Kahn himself said yesterday at Sky that Manuel Neuer was much better than him at the same age.

Müller.
Mascherano, too, I guess.
Puyol, back in the day.

I don't really feel like Messi is a "big game player". Mind you I don't think Ronaldo is either. They play in a lot of big games and they excel in some of them, but I can't help but feel that they are also frustrated in more of them. There is a tactical element to this, with teams setting themselves up primarily to nullify their threats, and better teams doing this very well, but I just don't think they're consistent enough at the very best level. I think that when the pressure is very high they both think that in order to assume the responsibility they must make something happen out of nowhere and as a result they become very selfish in their style of play.

CarloGOAL wrote:Ibra.
Milito in the past.

Ronaldo. Pirlo.

Ibra ?
I think he is a bottler in big games.

I agree about Milito . Not just for the treble of course, but even the Milito in decline was always a big games player

My name is Samuel Eto'o anyway

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't really feel like Messi is a "big game player". Mind you I don't think Ronaldo is either. They play in a lot of big games and they excel in some of them, but I can't help but feel that they are also frustrated in more of them. There is a tactical element to this, with teams setting themselves up primarily to nullify their threats, and better teams doing this very well, but I just don't think they're consistent enough at the very best level. I think that when the pressure is very high they both think that in order to assume the responsibility they must make something happen out of nowhere and as a result they become very selfish in their style of play.

I agree... while for example I didn't think this about Ronaldo the Brazilian ..probably I am influenced also from different results got with NTs ..

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I don't really feel like Messi is a "big game player". Mind you I don't think Ronaldo is either. They play in a lot of big games and they excel in some of them, but I can't help but feel that they are also frustrated in more of them. There is a tactical element to this, with teams setting themselves up primarily to nullify their threats, and better teams doing this very well, but I just don't think they're consistent enough at the very best level. I think that when the pressure is very high they both think that in order to assume the responsibility they must make something happen out of nowhere and as a result they become very selfish in their style of play.

OK, wow.  How would you want to measure it?

Messi weather you want to accept it or not was just player of the tournament in the World Cup, has set the record for goals scored in the group stages of the CL and is about to break the record for goals scored in the Champions league period.

He's going to break the all time goal scoring record in La Liga in record time, and I know this is a big game thread but I think people tend to think a Chelsea vs Liverpool game is a big game and not a Barcelona vs Sevilla or Bilbao or Valencia when these teams do extremely well on the European front and are in fact top 4 finishers in Spain which weather people want to admit it or not is one of the 2 best leagues in the world depending on what year it is.

Ronaldo and Messi roast those teams to a tune Drogba couldn't even touch nor anyone else.

He's scored and was MOM in 2 Champions League finals, Carried Barca on his back to a bunch of Champions League Semi Finals in a row, went out on one Leg when he could barely run and put PSG to the sword in like 5 minutes.

Ronaldo as well has scored in 2 CL finals and has had Madrid and United in a ton of CL Semi's or better.

If there not scoring there assisting which people generally overlook.

Any way you want to measure it Messi and Ronaldo are so much more consistent in big games than any other person it's not even funny.  

The fact that they are so far out of this universe makes other people like this poster claim, "I don't think there big game performers".  If they don't score in one game they get scorned even if they play well or assist.

The expectations on these two are so far out of the realm of what is reasonable for a football player to achieve it's a joke.  

Again if you hold any other player up to there standards they would fail miserably.  Hell Messi scored basically the same amount of goals as Suarez last year and everyone pretty much has decided he had a down year while Suarez was universally praised as having an incredible year.

If Messi or Ronaldo had some of the seasons Drogba had at Chelsea in some great great teams they would be killed by the media and people on boards like this yet people think Drogba is more of a big game player LOL.

Take a player like Raul who is considered a Madrid great.  He has over 30 goals only in 1 season, Messi more than doubled his best year in goals in one season and Ronaldo has beaten that mark every single year he's been at Madrid coming close to doubling it as well.

Again, what there doing is so unreal you will probably never see it again and only miss it when there done playing.  People take it for granted now which is sad.

So again anyway you want to measure "Best big game players" put these two in a class of there own and start the list at #3.

Also LOL at calling Messi and Ronaldo selfish.  Every great forward is somewhat Selfish.  Both of them put up impressive assist numbers right up there with the best providers in the world and both of them play injured for the betterment of there club.  Ronaldo basically ruined his World Cup to finish out the CL last year, Messi has gone out and played injured more times then I can count.

So Selfishness is relative.  Again, what more could you possible want from either player?  You think they play bad if they don't score in a big game yet you never consider the space they open up fort there teammates when both of them are triple and quadruple teamed basically EVERY SINGLE GAME or when they play a great game but just don't happen to score, no one remembers those games for either player.  Other "great players" of this generation are man-marked all the time, I can't remember the last time I have seen either player have the luxury of not being followed around by a pack of defenders.

A+ players are players who make great use of their attitude,mentality, physical abilities, and technique/skill.

For example, James Rodriguez is almost 6 feet tall, he has good speed, has a tremendous left foot, can do everything from assists, goals, freekicks, longshots, can play in a 442,433,4231 as a player on the outside of the 4, or of the 3 in the 433, or as a 10 in the 4231, he's awesome, talented, and with very good work ethic.

He performed in the world cup, and has done well against atletico, and barcelona whilst playing in different sides of the pitch, coming short of assists and goals in several of these matches.

Varane is another A+ player at age 21.

He has a great pass, one heck of a head on his shoulders, good speed, reads the game well, has made the difference against Barcelona more than once, made some errors here and there against the likes of Juventus and Man United, but again, he has so many traits and abilities, and has shown product as well.

Isco is another one, against Barcelona he has done two things in particular which have led to a goal, got the ball from neymar in the CDR final, and from Iniesta in the last encounter, both leading to goals, and proved a good attacking and defending presence in both of these matches.

He also was a positive influence in the CL final and at age 22, has no where to go but up in his execution of more "backwards" roles.

These are truly great players which have performed in big occasions.

Lord Awesome wrote:Dnmac is right about one thing tho. No players at Ronaldo or Messi level exist right now. Fortunately or unfortunately Ballon D'Or doesn't work like that.

You could easily make the argument that Ronaldo and Messi are the two best players of all time.

ummmm.... no you couldn't.

Uuh yeah you could lol

It might not be us making the arguments but the next generation are going to put those two up there for sure.

sorry but unless you play very well and are a dominant player for NT (don't need the team to win or even necessarily go far in comps), then you can't enter the discussion for best player ever.  It's not possible.  You guys who heavily weigh club play are in the minority.  The majority of the people live and die for NT as much as club.  NT has huge significance.

Just how it is.  Everyone is going to jump on me here of course... but the top spots are reserved to players who did it all with every team they were on regardless of talent.  That's Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, etc.  There wasn't a single team they weren't dominant on although their teams were sometimes poor overall.

Messi and CR7 will be part of the all time greats...  but that extra echelon is not there for them at this point.  They each probably have 1-2 more chances max.

sportsczy wrote:sorry but unless you play very well and are a dominant player for NT (don't need the team to win or even necessarily go far in comps), then you can't enter the discussion for best player ever.  It's not possible.  You guys who heavily weigh club play are in the minority.  The majority of the people live and die for NT as much as club.  NT has huge significance.

Just how it is.  Everyone is going to jump on me here of course... but the top spots are reserved to players who did it all with every team they were on regardless of talent.  That's Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, etc.  There wasn't a single team they weren't dominant on although their teams were sometimes poor overall.

Messi and CR7 will be part of the all time greats...  but that extra echelon is not there for them at this point.  They each probably have 1-2 more chances max.

This is so short sighted.

Basically probably more than half the people that play football never have a chance to win anything with there national teams. Is Bale never going to be a great player because he plays for Wales? The same with Giggs/Ibra basically all the African players etc?

Back in the day all the emphasis was on national teams because largely players stayed in there country of origin for a longer period of time and they didn't get to face each other until they met with there national teams hence it had much more meaning.

Compare the EPL now or even Italy now and 20-30 years ago. The numbers are probably insane with the amount of foreign born players playing in these leagues now compared to then.

You have the Euro's now and it's cool and everything but these players play with and against each other 2 times a week now.

SAF, Pep and many other coaches have said the Champions League is the most competitive tournament in the world. It's the most level playing field you don't generally have an idiot coaching your team like Maradona and you practice with these players basically 10 out of 12 months a year.

Hence the level playing field. National teams are so far from a level playing field it's insane. Is a Brazilian born player who basically gets to play on an all star team his whole life better than someone born in Bosnia? Is Fred better then Dzeko?

Why on earth would you choose how you play for your national team to be the be all end all of your career? You don't play with these people much all year, kids are shipped from countries at an early age so you don't even generally grow up with your teammates anymore, a lot of national team coaches flat out suck and if you are from a non-footballing or most small countries you don't have a shot.

Is Miroslav Klose one of the best strikers ever, according to you that would be the case.

I mean no matter where your from be it China, Australia, Wales, Japan, Cameroon if you are good enough you will get to one of the best club teams in the world and you have a chance at winning the Champions League or impressing in it.

Not to mention both Ronaldo and Messi are very good for there National teams. Messi's whole team collapsed around him in the World Cup and he was player of the tournament losing in overtime to a Germany team who beat the host nation that hadn't lost a home competitive match in like 30 years 7-1. I know you don't seriously think Ronaldo should be able to drive Portugal to win the World Cup or even the Euro's. Could it happen? Sure, Greece won the Euros by basically not playing football. Is it at all likely? No, Portugal have a nice team. If they played Germany 10 times they may win or draw a couple games but other than that they would catch a beating in most of the games just like Brazil and there is nothing Ronaldo could do to stop that.

And you think what they do in these one off tournaments every couple years should trump what they do on a weekly basis in the most competitive leagues and competitions? It really doesn't make any sense.

Not to mention no team has won back to back Champions League's in it's current format. That shows you how competitive it is. Spain didn't lose a national team game for years and won 3 tournaments in a row.

I know people hold some sentiment for national teams and I love a good national team tournament as much as the next fan, but there comes a time to step into this century.

Also, Messi has been great for Argentina for years now. Do you think if Argentina win the Copa America anyone would weigh that more heavily than Ronaldo winning the Champions League?

Not a chance.

The only international tournaments anyone gives a crap about is the World Cup and the Euro's. No one cares about the African Tournament/Gold Cup/Qualifiers/Asian tournament etc etc

If Bale bags 7 goals in qualifying for Wales and they don't make the Euro's or World cup NO ONE CARES.

I myself love the Copa America and think it's one of the most competitive tournaments in the World. If Uruguay win again no one will think Suarez is better than Messi or Ronaldo.

It's just how it is.

Dnmac4 wrote:Is Miroslav Klose one of the best strikers ever, according to you that would be the case.

Actually he is because you don't win 137 caps for Germany and score 71 goals for one of the top national teams in the world if you are a scrub.

Asamoah

rwo power wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:Is Miroslav Klose one of the best strikers ever, according to you that would be the case.

Actually he is because you don't win 137 caps for Germany and score 71 goals for one of the top national teams in the world if you are a scrub.

he's lucky that germany, despite being one of the best national teams in the world , didn't have that many options at CF during his time .
i mean the team had the likes of Asamoah, Hanke and a washed up Neuville as back up forwards in 2004-2008

in the last world cup he was germany's only pure striker ffs .

farfan wrote:in the last world cup he was germany's only pure striker ffs .

He scored more goals than CR7 in the World Cup 2014. And as CR7 played 3 games and Miro Klose played 5, even his goals/game ratio was better.

rwo power wrote:

Dnmac4 wrote:Is Miroslav Klose one of the best strikers ever, according to you that would be the case.

Actually he is because you don't win 137 caps for Germany and score 71 goals for one of the top national teams in the world if you are a scrub.

Dude, Klose was a really good player.

Would he ever be considered a top striker in his generation? No, not a chance.

He got to play on some amazing teams with Germany that were brutally efficient going forward.

If the tables were turned and he played for Wales do you think he would have similar success?

Again he was very good, but at Bayern he never scored more than 21 goals in a season and that season he played 47 games.

I mean come on now. If he were playing on some scrub team in the German league I would say those are really good goal returns but he was on Bayern for god's sake.

Again, I'm not taking anything away fro the guy he was very very good. But he just isn't a great player.

PS. I hate to use goals to define a player but the guy is/was a striker and a poacher at that. Everyone wants to bring down players when there great for there club team but don't live up to expectations on the national stage but when it's reversed it seems people don't want to talk about that.

If he were Messi or Ronaldo with the stats he put up at club level he would be sold and called a flop.

That's the straight up truth.

Hm. Did you know that Miro Klose scored 63 goals (+47 assists) in 131 matches for Werder Bremen,  52 goals (+25 assists) in 146 matches for Kaiserslautern and currently 42 goals (+20 assists) in 107 matches for Lazio Rom? I wouldn't call that exactly bad either. Especially as scoring goals isn't so easy in Italy.

By the way, I really doubt either Messi or CR7 would be able to score as many goals in Germany and Italy either as here the teams are usually set up at teams and not as support group for single star men.

klose is so underrated.