*A+ Players* Which players would you rely on in a big game?

klose is so underrated.

Miroslav Klose quite simply is *bleep* amazing. You don't need RWO's well documented stats and all his iconic moments to further story a career which has been built on a plethora of glory and clutch prowess.

Even to this day, you can see the sinews unwinding within his aging legs yet like Pippo Inzaghi his intelligence within the box is so mind-bogglingly high that it requires intense focus and concentration to take him out of the game.

He's been Germany NT best striker of all time by a mile and was excellent in all his other clubs as well.

Within Lazio he has been nothing short of professional, returning the love the Laziali provide him with his performances and leadership. I do not know how he does what he does when only Antonio Candreva is providing him good service; despite their partnership being already iconic in Serie A.

When he was being subbed off within the 88' my friends and family (in the most cheesy way possible a Basque group can do) stood and applauded him as we witnessed history of a player so highly respected even outside just Germany and Italia that one could not help but shed a tear at such a moment.

He intends to retire at the end of the season yet I genuinely hope he goes one more season with La Acquile.

Klose is legit

Amauri is a good shout tbh

The man has never lost in any CL, Euro or World Cup final in his life. The epitome of dependable.

rwo power wrote:Hm. Did you know that Miro Klose scored 63 goals (+47 assists) in 131 matches for Werder Bremen,  52 goals (+25 assists) in 146 matches for Kaiserslautern and currently 42 goals (+20 assists) in 107 matches for Lazio Rom? I wouldn't call that exactly bad either. Especially as scoring goals isn't so easy in Italy.

By the way, I really doubt either Messi or CR7 would be able to score as many goals in Germany and Italy either as here the teams are usually set up at teams and not as support group for single star men.

Come on man you can't be serious. From 2006 to 2013 Mario Gomez scored more goals than Klose by a very large margin.

In fact he scored many more goals every single year during that span except one.

I mean when I say a wide margin I mean a huge margin. MK scored 132 goals in that span and Gomez scored 200 goals in that span.

Are you really siting here trying to tell me Messi and Ronaldo couldn't achieve that success at Bayern Munich and Werder or Stuttgart?

I mean Messi feasts on German teams in the Champions league and one could argue Bayern are just as good as Barca in a lot of those years where both Klose and Gomez played.

Not to mention the stat you brought u below,

"63 goals (+47 assists) in 131 matches for Werder Bremen,  52 goals (+25 assists) in 146 matches for Kaiserslautern and currently 42 goals (+20 assists) in 107 matches for Lazio "

Those are very good numbers but again if Messi or Ronaldo put up those numbers people in the media and on here would kill them.

They are expected to score every game and sometimes when they don't score two or more goals they catch heat on here and in the media.

So while those are very good numbers they are kind of a joke when compiled next to Ronaldo and Messi.

Again, were talking about a totally different universe here.

Bayern got trashed every year in the CL while Klose was there, it were the horrid years, the ones with Klinsmann, and van Gaal, where they were ambitious, but lacked the squad depth to do anything. Yes they had Klose, Toni, and Ribéry, but they also had Lell, Ottl, and Borowski, relying on a defence with Demichelis, Breno, and Braafheid, with a shitty 4-4-2.

Also, Klose barely got the time in the first team he deserved, with the more expensive signings being given more starts. Especially when they started playing 4-2-3-1 with only one striker.

There's a reason he had a great goal-to-match ratio with KSC and Werder, and a shit one for Bayern, and a good one for Lazio again.

Muntari

@Dnmac

Looks like you didn't understand my point - Messi or CR7 wouldn't score as many goals in Germany in a German team because here no coach would set up a team around one player alone. There is a reason why Bayern had 91 goals in the season last year and the top scorer scored only 18 goals, while for Real Madrid, CR7 scores a good 1/3 of all goals.

A player who needs as many shots per goal as CR7 would be slated for being too wasteful and no team player if he doesn't pass the ball to a team mate who is positioned better than him. And this is not really looked at favourably around here.

If you look at the stats of CR7, it is only in Spain for Real that his number of goals rose to the skies - for ManUtd he scored 84 goals in 196 matches and for his NT he scored 51 goals in 116 matches. As soon as the team is not absolutely set up to support him to 100 percent, his goals per game ratio is on the level of other normal prolific strikers.

rwo power wrote:If you look at the stats of CR7, it is only in Spain for Real that his number of goals rose to the skies - for ManUtd he scored 84 goals in 196 matches and for his NT he scored 51 goals in 116 matches. As soon as the team is not absolutely set up to support him to 100 percent, his goals per game ratio is on the level of other normal prolific strikers.

Which is still really great, but I'm agreeing with your point.
Messi and Ronaldo can both be the best players in the world right now, but also have inflated goal ratios because their teams are set up to supply them.

It can both be true. I just think it's a difference in mentality, Germans have often been skeptical (often not rightfully so, admittedly) of South American star players, because of their egos, even i they ended up being an asset to their respective teams.


I just think we don't have it in us to build a team around a single player. And I'm not even saying Klose would score like Ronaldo if a team was built around him - that'd be hardcore speculating, and I honestly don't know if that's any kind of true.

It's a good point though, so I wanted to shine a bit of a spotlight on it.

El Shaarawy wrote:Muntari

Klose is legit though. Even in the last major tournament of his NT career he stepped it up when it mattered. Scored the equalizer against Ghana a minute after he came on.  

Don't know what you're going on about though Rwo. You're basically pulling the whole "Messi couldn't do it in a rainy night in Stoke" but the German version. You're telling me if prime Messi was dropped into today's Bayern under Pep he wouldn't score as much? Please

I'm actually with RWO on that one. Messi would still be the best player in current Bayern, but... Well that's a shoddy example, because Bayern is coached by a Spaniard now.

But RWOs general point was, and I agree with that, that no German coach would build a team as straightforward around a single player as Barca and Real are/were around Messi and Ronaldo.

So if you dropped Messi into, say, Heynckes' Bayern, yes, I'd say he'd still be the best player on that team, but he would score less than he did for Barca.

ACMRox wrote:You're basically pulling the whole "Messi couldn't do it in a rainy night in Stoke" but the German version. You're telling me if prime Messi was dropped into today's Bayern under Pep he wouldn't score as much? Please

What I'm trying to telling you is that it is a different philosophy here. Building a team around one player alone invites disaster when that player gets injured. And as it is wise to have other options, the goalscoring and everything is distributed over more players.

Plus if you look at a team like Dortmund, there every player is expected to run like mad and do defensive duties, too. I can't really see CR7 or Messi do that and still be able to score as much.

While CR7 and Messi have enormous freedom at Barca ands Real, here even players like Robben or Ribery are expected to help defending - and it took them a while to accept that, for sure. But maybe you remember that Robben actually was benched ever so often in the beginning until he actually understood that he had to work more for the tea?. Do you really think CR7 or Messi would go for that?

So in my eyes, neither CR7 nor Messi would actually be a good fit for a Bundesliga team until they would adapt. And they are too much stars to feel like adapting, and most coaches just wouldn't indulge them. Here the motto is "no player is bigger than the team".

As for Pep at Bayern - actually I think this would be the only constellation where Messi could fit in, as Pep is a completely different type of coach. Although even Pep had to adapt somewhat to how things are done at Bayern, and I guess that could be quite a culture shock for Messi, too, and I wonder if he would feel 100% comfortable there.

Robben and Ribery aren't as good as Ronaldo/Messi though, so why should the team be 'built around' either one?

It's not as if Messi/Ronaldo were born elite players. When given the chance, both players have shown everyone that they're once in a generation players. Robben and Ribery haven't. I don't even really understand what 'built around' even means. When you have Messi on your team, he's going to do his thing. Same with Ronaldo. Sure, yes, you're going to try and accommodate them based on their strengths. But 'built around' sounds like none of the other players matter and it's all about 1 player.

" built around " is just a silly cliché thrown around to undermine once in a generation players like messi and ronaldo .

as for klose , i'm supposed to be impressed by his number of goals when he played upfront  for one of the most dominant national teams in the world for over a decade  ?

71 goals in 131 selections for germany ? big whoop , an average ratio for any forward playing in a top national team .

That's not fair Farfan. Look at the ratios of the best in the last 20 years:

Henry got 51 goals in 123 caps for France (top scorer ever) - 0,41
David Villa got 59 goals in 97 caps for Spain (top scorer ever) - 60,8
R9 got 62 goal in 98 caps for Brazil - 63,3

So Klose's ratio 0.54 is really good especially when you consider that 30+ of those caps happened before 2004... and those German NT teams were truly not that good and the philosophy was different. Germany only transitioned to this new style since Euro 2004. In comparison, Ronaldo only played on insanely good Brazil NTs and David Villa predominantly also.

Klose deserves his accolades.

Well here's the thing. I don't know how Messi would function in a club outside Barca but Ronaldo has already done it in the PL. No doubt he'll do it for any team in any league in the world. Not saying Ronnie will score the equal amount but he'll be winning all the top scorer torphies of any league ATM.

Klose is good IMO, don't really know why he gets smudged so much. Him and Diego Milito are in the same class except Klose has been WC for a while, whereas Milito got to the same level as he approached 30. Both are past it now so I wouldn't count on them as reliable now as they where on their heydays. Still very good tho.

Tiago Mendes would be another pick of mine. The guy has guy through Braga, Benfica, Chelsea, Juve, Lyon, and Atletico and still plays at a good level at the age of 33. A real machine, IMO.

VivaStPauli wrote:I'm actually with RWO on that one. Messi would still be the best player in current Bayern, but... Well that's a shoddy example, because Bayern is coached by a Spaniard now.

But RWOs general point was, and I agree with that, that no German coach would build a team as straightforward around a single player as Barca and Real are/were around Messi and Ronaldo.

So if you dropped Messi into, say, Heynckes' Bayern, yes, I'd say he'd still be the best player on that team, but he would score less than he did for Barca.

What are you guys on? Can I have some?

They don't need to build a team around either of them. Look at what these two decent to good strikers did on Bayern in the German league. BTW, have you seen what Messi does to German teams?

Gomez scored 39 and 41 goals in 2 of the seasons he was on Bayern.

Mandžukić went from scoring 8 and 12 goals at Wolfsburg to 22 and 26 at Bayern.

These are two of the most one dimensional players I have ever seen.

Are you two really sitting here acting like Messi and Ronaldo wouldn't score 30-40 goals a year at Bayern?

I mean seriously, I don't mean to be rude but this is totally insane.

sportsczy wrote:That's not fair Farfan.  Look at the ratios of the best in the last 20 years:

Henry got 51 goals in 123 caps for France (top scorer ever) - 0,41
David Villa got 59 goals in 97 caps for Spain (top scorer ever) - 60,8
R9 got 62 goal in 98 caps for Brazil - 63,3

So Klose's ratio 0.54 is really good especially when you consider that 30+ of those caps happened before 2004... and those German NT teams were truly not that good and the philosophy was different.  Germany only transitioned to this new style since Euro 2004.  In comparison, Ronaldo only played on insanely good Brazil NTs and David Villa predominantly also.  

Klose deserves his accolades.

So why didn't he do it at the club level?  

He was routinely beaten out by Mario Gomez by a large margin in goals in the German League and then he strait up snatched his spot from him at Bayern.

Not to mention he led the Bundesliga in scoring one season in his career.  And it's not like he was being beasted by Pele and Maradona nor were the people winning it putting up huge goal numbers.

Gomez
Dzeko
Grafite
Toni
Gekas

I mean did you know from 2006 to 2011 he never put up more than 10 goals in the Bundesliga????????

Just stop.  I hate being the one to sit here and knock the guy but the previous poter is right you guys really are starting to sound like massive Premfaces right now.  NOT MORE THAN 10 GOALS in 5 years and his whole career at Bayern.

Come on now.

LMAO RWO tripping

I guess I imagined CR completely destroying Schalke/BVB/Bayern last season and the less said about Neverkusen's disgraceful performance against Messi the better.

Not only would CR and Messi score goals routinely in Fraudesliga, I'm pretty sure they would crack 70 goals with relative ease.

Lord Awesome wrote:Well here's the thing. I don't know how Messi would function in a club outside Barca but Ronaldo has already done it in the PL. No doubt he'll do it for any team in any league in the world. Not saying Ronnie will score the equal amount but he'll be winning all the top scorer torphies of any league ATM.

Yet Ronaldo went from 0.5ish goals/game at ManU to 1.0ish goals/game at Real. Not because it's easier to score there, but because Reals plan of attack for years has been "run really fast, pass to Ronaldo".

Dnmac4 wrote:They don't need to build a team around either of them.  Look at what these two decent to good strikers did on Bayern in the German league.

Gomez is among the world's best poachers, he just happened to be injured in any season he scored less than 30ish goals. He scored about the same number of goals for Stuttgart as he did for Bayern.

BTW, have you seen what Messi does to German teams?

Lose in 2006, 2010, and 2014?

Gomez scored 39 and 41 goals in 2 of the seasons he was on Bayern.

Mandžukić went from scoring 8 and 12 goals at Wolfsburg to 22 and 26 at Bayern.

Mandzukic was the 2nd striker in a shit 4-4-2 at a dysfunctional Wolfsburg and once the world got to see him as the focal point of a decent attack with his NT, Bayern snatched him up, and he got to be the only striker in Heynckes' 4-2-3-1, giving him tons of service, yet he ended up with only a few more goals than Müller and Robben, underlining my point of Bayern having a more diverse portfolio of players that do their scoring for them.

These are two of the most one dimensional players I have ever seen.

I'm open to discussion about Mandzukic' overall quality, but how is he one-dimensional? Mofo tackles like a box-to-box midfielder yet still scores like someone who could at least be called an "international class" striker.

Are you two really sitting here acting like Messi and Ronaldo wouldn't score 30-40 goals a year at Bayern?

Depends on the tactics. Maybe 30-40 across all competitions if they hit the team in the year Gomez did. Less if they did now. There's just too much going on with Müller, Robben, Ribéry, and Götze to feed a player like CR or Messi that much.

They'd still probably score the most goals in that team. And be their best player. But they certainly wouldn't score as much for Bayern, in relation to the overall number of goals scored by the entire team, iE not a third or more of goals, as they did in past seasons for Barca and Real.

This might be less true this season, now that Barca is successfully integrating Nerman and Real is expanding on the limited lessons in team play CR received from Mou, and are now focusing a bit more on Benzema.
But it's still a valid point to be made and not taking anything away from Messi or Ronaldo, who are both brilliant players. But they are both the focal point of their team's attack in a way that no player in the German league is, not even Podolski at Cologne before he went to Arsenal got that much attention from his team mates.

UH OK, the only comment I was making about Gomez is that he crushed Klose in goals. I was actually complimentary of him so I don't really understand the reply.

Do you have good reasons this once in a generation player couldn't score more than 10 goals in the BL in 4-5 seasons at Bayern?

Again, if Messi or Ronaldo had 1 Klose season in Germany they would get sold with the quickness.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Yet Ronaldo went from 0.5ish goals/game at ManU to 1.0ish goals/game at Real. Not because it's easier to score there, but because Reals plan of attack for years has been "run really fast, pass to Ronaldo".

I think it should be pretty obvious to everyone that it's much easier to score in Spain than in any other top league, ATM. And even so Ronaldo's best season in at Man U saw him scoring 32 goals in a PL season. Pretty sure he can do the same or even better in Bundesliga.

what makes you come to that assumption??
because Messi and Ronaldo are slamming that many goals?
Costa is just as easily scoring goals in the epl then in spain, aguero is having a better record in epl then in spain etc.
if ronaldo went to the epl tomorrow he'd probably score equally if not probably more.

Ronaldo would beat his 60 goals record in EPL with relative ease considering all the space he would have.

Donuts wrote:what makes you come to that assumption??
because Messi and Ronaldo are slamming that many goals?
Costa is just as easily scoring goals in the epl then in spain, aguero is having a better record in epl then in spain etc.

It's obvious bro. The lack of defensive quality from La Liga Defenders in comparison to the other top league Defenders is crystal clear. There's always exceptions but generally that's the case.

Costa is managed by Mou (nuff said) and also has better support and is the focal point to Chelsea's attack. Aguero was hampered by Forlan who was Atletico's real main CF at the time Aguero was present. Doesn't mean Aguero wasn't capable of scoring as much as he does in PL. Aguero now is the main focal point in scoring for Man City and is WC, (and was since La Liga along with Costa) therefore he will score anywhere now.

Bottom line is, I consider both Costa & Aguero as WC therefore I can see them both tear any league to shreds. Unless you assume they'll score less in La Liga now?

we shouldn't derail this thread into a epl vs la liga but my last and only comment is the hype epl gets for it's quality is so blown over the top, the only team in epl now that is worth mentioning thier defence is probably chelsea, the rest are just average at best.