Re: The Official Balon d'Or 2014 Thread

by Freeza Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:06 pm

Harmonica wrote:
zigra wrote:I sometimes wonder how Gerd Müller didn't win ten BdO in a row
He wasn't overhyped like Cronaldo just by goal scoring, he wasn't media cash cow. It's shame that players like Van Nistelrooy have 0 Ballon d'Or's when players like Cronaldo have 2.

wat.. As much as I love Van Nistelrooy, he was nowhere near the level CR7 is at.

by Curtinho Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:02 pm

Harmonica wrote:
zigra wrote:I sometimes wonder how Gerd Müller didn't win ten BdO in a row
He wasn't overhyped like Cronaldo just by goal scoring, he wasn't media cash cow. It's shame that players like Van Nistelrooy have 0 Ballon d'Or's when players like Cronaldo have 2.

Well, Gerd Muller was only ever the European Scoring champ twice, he was a striker and it was pretty much all he was good at.

Also comparing RVN to Ronaldo is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on this site, and I'm Dutch.

by zigra Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:02 pm

He certainly outscored the guys who won the Balon d'Or though. He scored nearly a goal per game over his whole career while winning every trophy there is and most of the multiple times while scoring in the most important games yet only won the BdO once and finished second twice. He's not even considered as the best striker of his generation even though he completely outscored everyone else.

But today if I want to know why someone is the best player in the world all I get as an answer is "player x scored y goals and gave z assists" as if that is all that matters. I just wonder why that wasn't the case in the past.

Btw I don't even think Ronaldo doesn't deserve the award this season :coffee:

by Zealous Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:18 pm

Muller's problem is that while he was indeed a great goal scorer and a legendary player, he wasn't the best player on his team for many of the season where he was playing at a high level.

He has a number of Silver and Bronze Balls and actually won the Balon D'Or in 1970 but because he had to contend with Beckenbauer and Cryuff he didn't get as many as he might have.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:19 pm

Gerd Müller won a ballon d'or though, before Beckenbauer and Cruyff took over.
Also what used to be ballon d'or is now more the 'European Player of the year' award

by Hapless_Hans Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:20 pm

^Zeal beat me to it ..

by Zealous Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:22 pm

by zigra Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:26 pm

I know he won the BdO once, I even said so :coffee:

And of course I know his "problem" was that Beckenbauer and Cruyff were superior but I just wonder why 40 years back in the time it was possible to be better than the best goal scorer while it seems completely unrealistic this day. I often read "Messi and Ronaldo are in a class of their own" and stuff like that and ultimately it always comes down to them scoring far more than the rest yet in the past it seems that wasn't most important and you could be the best while scoring less than someone else.
As I said I don't even really disagree with people calling them the best players in the world but the arguments that are used just confuse me a bit.

Hans do you think Müller would've won more titles if the system would've been the same back then as it is now?

by Curtinho Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:32 pm

I don't think so. Ronaldo and Messi dominate to another level. There are years where midfielders have come close, like Ribery and Sneijder (it's a travesty that Iniesta and Xavi were voted ahead of Sneijder in 2010) but honestly the impact that Ronaldo and Messi have on the game now where there are so many good players is really unbelievable.

by Hapless_Hans Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:36 pm

zigra wrote:I know he won the BdO once, I even said so

And of course I know his "problem" was that Beckenbauer and Cruyff were superior but I just wonder why 40 years back in the time it was possible to be better than the best goal scorer while it seems completely unrealistic this day. I often read "Messi and Ronaldo are in a class of their own" and stuff like that and ultimately it always comes down to them scoring far more than the rest yet in the past it seems that wasn't most important and you could be the best while scoring less than someone else.
As I said I don't even really disagree with people calling them the best players in the world but the arguments that are used just confuse me a bit.

Hans do you think Müller would've won more titles if the system would've been the same back then as it is now?

I see now you said it, I wrote my post without reading later entries Embarassed

No idea whether Müller would've won more.

But I agree, now the focus is too much on strikers. Also what I don't get, why this award isn't used a bit more to spread the love around. Give one to Pirlo, or Ibra, or Lahm, etc, whoever suits that year.
Acknowledge the variety of truly great players football has, not just the same 2 clowns.

by Harmonica Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:40 pm

Freeza wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
zigra wrote:I sometimes wonder how Gerd Müller didn't win ten BdO in a row
He wasn't overhyped like Cronaldo just by goal scoring, he wasn't media cash cow. It's shame that players like Van Nistelrooy have 0 Ballon d'Or's when players like Cronaldo have 2.

wat.. As much as I love Van Nistelrooy, he was nowhere near the level CR7 is at.

Three times champions league top scorer, with better ratio than Cronaldo and in much, much worse teams. 0 Ballon d'Or's for Nistelrooy, 2 for Cronaldo. That's sad.

by Freeza Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:50 pm

Harmonica wrote:
Freeza wrote:
Harmonica wrote:
He wasn't overhyped like Cronaldo just by goal scoring, he wasn't media cash cow. It's shame that players like Van Nistelrooy have 0 Ballon d'Or's when players like Cronaldo have 2.

wat.. As much as I love Van Nistelrooy, he was nowhere near the level CR7 is at.
Three times champions league top scorer, with better ratio than Cronaldo and in much, much worse teams. 0 Ballon d'Or's for Nistelrooy, 2 for Cronaldo. That's sad.

Ronaldo has also been three times top scorer.
Both got a ratio of around 0.64.
And I would hazard a guess that Ronaldo has more assists in the tournament, but those stats are so hard to find (any help).
Ronaldo also played a much different position/style before 2007/2008. And after that He completely obliterates RvN's stats.
Ronaldo has a ratio of +1.0 since joining Madrid.
He has 2 tournament wins. RvN has 0.

Can you please stop spewing all this BS, it's getting ridiculous tbh. Who is the next player better than Ronaldo?

by Pip Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:39 pm

Freeza wrote:Who is the next player better than Ronaldo?

Benzema.

by Valkyrja Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:47 pm

Pippo wrote:
Freeza wrote:Who is the next player better than Ronaldo?
Benzema.

by Bankz Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:59 am

Goals have pretty much become the order of the day..say ronaldo scored 35 per season, do u think he'd even be in the conversation? But u can argue that messi has pretty much being the best player (goals or without goals),since 2007-2013. And that, to me, makes one a true great..people seem to forget the fact that messi dominated everything ronaldo related has sort of made cr7 sustain he's hunger, drive and motivation by quite a margin while messi has sort of become bored and tired mentally tbh, as u would say happened to dinho too..while most know that cr7 is the best in the world in 2014 (on form), he mainly achieved that by scoring goals and nothing else..lets not act like finese, excitment and being mesmerizing wasn't an unofficial criteria that was used in giving the award, hence u see that muller won just one (for all his goal scoring), RVN won none, inzaghi won none forlan won none, while R9 won so many even as a striker (3 players of the year and 2 B d'or), george weah, R baggio, dinho, zidane, cruyff, schevchenko, prime kaka, despite the fact that they were not all top scorers 80% of the time they won it.they all had one thing in common, they were all stupendously mesmerizing, exciting and had pure ball wizadry while they delivered on the biggest stages ..the list goes on and on, heck, R9 even won the uefa MVP from the uefa cup competition 98, making a mockery of nestas spirits and riping the lazio defence a new one while at it, infact he scored a paltry 6 goals in 11 games that year..so the rules have changed toward goal scoring, thus giving cr7 and messi an edge today.

by Curtinho Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:56 pm

Soccer in general revolves around goals so it would make sense that when players like Ronaldo and Messi are playing in an historic way, creating goals at an historic pace, they would be recognized for it.

by Pip Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:15 pm

El Cujo wrote:Soccer in general revolves around goals so it would make sense that when players like Ronaldo and Messi are playing in an historic way, creating goals at an historic pace, they would be recognized for it.

How come Romário did not win the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 2000 when he scored 73 goals? scratch

by Curtinho Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:03 pm

Pippo wrote:
El Cujo wrote:Soccer in general revolves around goals so it would make sense that when players like Ronaldo and Messi are playing in an historic way, creating goals at an historic pace, they would be recognized for it.
How come Romário did not win the FIFA World Player of the Year award in 2000 when he scored 73 goals?

Probably because he did it in the Brazilian league? How many winners of the WPotY or Ballon d'Or played outside of the 5 big leagues (or formerly the Dutch league)? Actually since 1986 nobody outside of the top 5 leagues have even finished top 3 in WPotY.

by Harmonica Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:57 pm

2014 (6.11) in official games

Messi 45 (6pen) goals, 25 assists = directly part of 70 goals

Cronaldo 50 (10pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 64 goals

Benzema 30 (1pen) goals, 21 assists = directly part of 51 goals

Bale 21 (0pen) goals, 19 assists = directly part of 40 goals

Zlatan 27 (4pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 38 goals
Müller 24 (6pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 38 goals
Di Maria 10 (0pen) goals, 26 assists = directly part of 36 goals
Neymar 28 (0pen) goals, 7 assists = directly part of 35 goals
James 20 (3pen) goals, 15 assists = directly part of 35 goals
Götze 22 (0pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 34 goals
Suarez 16 (0pen) goals, 16 assists = directly part of 32 goals (not shortlisted)
Robben 18 (3pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 32 goals

Costa 24 (2pen) goals, 3 assists = directly part of 27 goals
Toure 16 (5pen) goals, 8 assists = directly part of 24 goals
Hazard 13 (7pen) goals, 10 assists = directly part of 23 goals
Pobga 9 (0pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 21 goals

Kroos 6 (0pen) goals, 10 assists = directly part of 16 goals
Iniesta 3 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 14 goals
Schweinsteiger 6 (0pen) goals, 4 assists = directly part of 10 goals

Defenders

Lahm
Mascherano
Ramos

Goalies

Neuer
Courtois

Messi extending lead and in his own dimension, Benzema catching up Ronaldo.

by rwo power Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:03 am

Manuel Neuer puts in his application as footballer, too:
https://amp.twimg.com/v/d9ccbe85-d977-4a21-84f3-f21f86e6eed6

cheers

by Harmonica Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:16 am

2014 (10.11) in official games

Messi 45 (6pen) goals, 25 assists = directly part of 70 goals

Cronaldo 51 (10pen) goals, 16 assists = directly part of 67 goals

Benzema 31 (1pen) goals, 21 assists = directly part of 52 goals

Bale 22 (0pen) goals, 19 assists = directly part of 41 goals
Müller 27 (6pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 41 goals

Zlatan 27 (4pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 38 goals
Di Maria 10 (0pen) goals, 27 assists = directly part of 37 goals
Neymar 29 (0pen) goals, 7 assists = directly part of 36 goals
Götze 22 (0pen) goals, 13 assists = directly part of 35 goals
James 20 (3pen) goals, 15 assists = directly part of 35 goals
Suarez 16 (0pen) goals, 18 assists = directly part of 34 goals (not shortlisted)
Robben 18 (3pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 32 goals

Costa 25 (2pen) goals, 3 assists = directly part of 28 goals
Toure 16 (5pen) goals, 9 assists = directly part of 25 goals
Hazard 13 (7pen) goals, 10 assists = directly part of 23 goals
Pobga 9 (0pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 21 goals

Kroos 7 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 18 goals
Iniesta 3 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 14 goals
Schweinsteiger 6 (0pen) goals, 4 assists = directly part of 10 goals

Defenders

Lahm
Mascherano
Ramos

Goalies

Neuer

Cronaldo's turn to catch up Messi.

by Bankz Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:27 am

Smh...

by Valkyrja Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:55 am

jiopsi, why don't you put the games played too ?

by Harmonica Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:39 pm

Valkyrja wrote:jiopsi, why don't you put the games played too ?

Because it's overall output that matters. Player who plays, is better than player who doesn't.

I could however put, players beaten by dribble, dives and team edge, as in relation to team goals?

by Bankz Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:48 pm

Smh...

by Harmonica Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:46 am

2014 (18.11) in official games

Messi 46 (7pen) goals, 25 assists = directly part of 71 goals

Cronaldo 52 (10pen) goals, 16 assists = directly part of 68 goals

Benzema 31 (1pen) goals, 21 assists = directly part of 52 goals

Müller 29 (6pen) goals, 14 assists = directly part of 43 goals
Bale 22 (0pen) goals, 19 assists = directly part of 41 goals

Neymar 31 (0pen) goals, 8 assists = directly part of 39 goals
Zlatan 28 (4pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 39 goals
Di Maria 10 (0pen) goals, 27 assists = directly part of 37 goals
James 20 (3pen) goals, 17 assists = directly part of 37 goals
Götze 23 (0pen) goals, 13 assists = directly part of 36 goals
Suarez 17 (0pen) goals, 18 assists = directly part of 35 goals (not shortlisted)
Robben 20 (3pen) goals, 15 assists = directly part of 35 goals

Costa 25 (2pen) goals, 3 assists = directly part of 28 goals
Toure 16 (5pen) goals, 9 assists = directly part of 25 goals
Hazard 13 (7pen) goals, 10 assists = directly part of 23 goals
Pobga 9 (0pen) goals, 12 assists = directly part of 21 goals

Kroos 8 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 19 goals
Iniesta 3 (0pen) goals, 11 assists = directly part of 14 goals
Schweinsteiger 6 (0pen) goals, 4 assists = directly part of 10 goals

Defenders

Lahm
Mascherano
Ramos

Goalies

Neuer

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