so...is this still mourinho's madrid ?

Hapless_Hans wrote:Just out of interest, how many people are there that actually claim the CL win under Ancelotti should be credited to a large part to Mourinho?
Seems to me a bit like this thread is fighting straw men, or did I miss some heated discussions there.

I believe only some credit. Same with Pep & Rikjaard. Team already jelled and all.

sportsczy wrote:There were no problems for the first 2 years really...  i just didn't like Mou and i hated how we played crap football against the better teams just to win.  We had enough talent to win without resorting to underdog football.

Mou's 3rd year... he just lost the plot.  He likes to put everyone under pressure and you can't do that long term when everyone on the team is an established star.  They'll just have enough.  And then when we started losing... he blamed everyone but himself and threw players under the bus.  That was crap.

Mou likes to take all the credit and defer all the criticism on his players.  He's the most selfish and egomaniac manager i have ever seen.

At least that's the image he likes give. Selfish is the correct word, actually. Though he did expose his players to spur them to do better. Didn't work. Split grew larger. The dressing room already split, fans split. It was a fiasco in the end. And even then he got them to a 3rd Semi with all the commotion going on and such. Managed to give Dortmund a big gulp towards the end.

haps i have seen it before this thread, just felt like joining the debate this time, as i said its not like hate the guy or discrediting in him, just can't see his influence on the team at all

@sports winning is nice and all but its how we won was the problem, always as been about that tbh, before mou and after him, and the moment the team stopped winning shit hit the fans hard cause of his ego, if he tried to work with the player more, no doubt he would've left in a better light, its not like flo wanted to fire him, he got forced into it or chaos

I have to say though, at all his other teams players have a sometimes very close and admiring relation to Mourinho.
Think about Chelsea. Think Ibrahimovic.

So if he got along and defended/protected his other teams and players, yet didn't get along, decided to publicly call out etc players at Madrid, maybe it's not Mourinho that was the problem

Maybe Real's dressing room was quite simply full of poses

Hapless_Hans wrote:I have to say though, at all his other teams players have a sometimes very close and admiring relation to Mourinho.
Think about Chelsea. Think Ibrahimovic.

So if he got along and defended/protected his other teams and players, yet didn't get along, decided to publicly call out etc players at Madrid, maybe it's not Mourinho that was the problem

Maybe Real's dressing room was quite simply full of poses

That's exactly what I believe. I think certain players wern't giving it all they had due to the split between Casillas & Mou. Mou tried to get rid of that by singling them out. Didn't work either. RM flopped. Mou flopped automatically.

Should've mention Xabi Alonso trying to quell the team back together. Did what he could.

haps you can't compare madrid to chelsea or inter, its not the same even if he had won the 10th, the dressing room issues would appear sooner or later

carlo showed how you manage a team of superstars filled with egos, still get them to work hard and play for each other((glory hunters gets benched or warned, except cr), while improving individually some more than others, they step up as a whole now, cause he acknowledges all of them equally and the players love him for it and they display it publicly, sometimes he is too easy on them, but the players usually shape up sooner or later and get with the program, the players clearly respect and believe what carlo is telling them

also you really think carlo would have said his cat comment? mou loves singling out a player for issues instead on taking it on the chin and working with what he got, look at mata not a work horse? gtfo, yeah sure the players really loves him a lot

Hapless_Hans wrote:I have to say though, at all his other teams players have a sometimes very close and admiring relation to Mourinho.
Think about Chelsea. Think Ibrahimovic.

So if he got along and defended/protected his other teams and players, yet didn't get along, decided to publicly call out etc players at Madrid, maybe it's not Mourinho that was the problem

Maybe Real's dressing room was quite simply full of poses

That's not really true.  Inter and Chelsea are not elite clubs... their fans and management are willing to compromise game quality and behavior in exchange for winning.  True elite clubs like Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Man U, etc. will have none of that...  their club has a culture that players/managers need to adjust to and not the other way around.

In the end, Mou's problem was that he was not bigger than some of the players and definitely not the club at Madrid.  He had to convince and justify his actions...  needed diplomacy.  He completely failed.

That's why i think Mou can never manage at a truly big club.  It's impossible unless he compromises some of his traits.

The underdog mentality and constant defiance are not acceptable at these clubs. They are protecting a brand first.

Except that I would add that Man Utd fans these days would be sobbing with joy if they had Mourinho, I think you have a point there.

sportsczy wrote:
That's not really true.  Inter and Chelsea are not elite clubs... their fans and management are willing to compromise game quality and behavior in exchange for winning.  True elite clubs like Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Man U, etc. will have none of that...  their club has a culture that players/managers need to adjust to and not the other way around.

In the end, Mou's problem was that he was not bigger than some of the players and definitely not the club at Madrid.  He had to convince and justify his actions...  needed diplomacy.  He completely failed.

That's why i think Mou can never manage at a truly big club.  It's impossible unless he compromises some of his traits.

The underdog mentality and constant defiance are not acceptable at these clubs.  They are protecting a brand first.

Porto's a true elite club, considering the above standards mentioned, and Mou won his first CL with Porto. I don't think Mou's problem with RM had to do with RM being elite. He actually changed RM philosophy in that to become an elite a team must always go for the win not matter what. And Mou certainly fits that bill.

Come on. Porto is not an elite club.

sportsczy wrote:Come on.  Porto is not an elite club.

I thought the same as you did when I read Inter & Chelsea weren't elite.

However, I really do treat Porto as an elite club mainly because they've proven they are. They always seem to go toe to toe against everyone no matter who it is. And they even have their own style which they never seem to betray and have been successful. For me at least, they're in the elite category, deservingly.

mou changed madrid philosophy to be an elite team what now? , LA come on and this is REAL MADRID, the club had one problem only, the board wanting to manage the team themselves(so they can take the credit directly for politics), instead of getting the right managers/staff for the job, they just hired puppet after puppet, buying any hypeish player that would come, im not giving mou credit for common sense, that anybody could see and put a stop too, if they were given the chance, again mou had the clout and flo just let him do what needed to be done cause politics, cause if it failed its well documented he gave mou full control, even firing valdano and benching iker etc..,

Don't see how this Madrid team in any way resembles Mou's.

A lot of the same players is all I see really.

Obviously guys, RM weren't Elite after they won their 9th CL. They were just some big team that kept getting eliminated by Lyon. Mou brought that eliteness back to RM by installing the correct philosophy to RM. He also ended that trend where RM board wanted to manage the players by removing Valdano. Ancelotti lived off Mou's legacy in that way and did what Mou couldn't. I also give credit to Ancelotti himself for proving to be an elite manager himself. Certainly wasn't his first CL either.

RM wasn't elite cause of clear miss management, and not mou, any elite manager given full control, always axe who needs to be axed legend or not, buy the players they want for the prices they want, and is given time to get there tactics in place and little to no interference from the board, again flo started all of this and its only right he set things back on track

as i said before LA madrid should and would have brushed lyon aside, if it wasn't for higuain fact, then what would have been mou saving grace? and mou almost had a repeat against lyon away, if it wasn't for "the cat" saving him, and putting the tie in the team favor come the second leg, too bad mou was so petty he left benz out of the cl semi for higuain and freaking adebayor , which the team lost for playing hoofball, dat elite team footy

Hapless_Hans wrote:Doc you should be aware that I have no moral problem writing a lengthy post claiming all kind of holier-than-thou stuff plus some alleged deep insights, without actually having seen much of Mourinhos Madrid, not to mention pre-Mourinho Madrid lol.
I just pulled most of that right out of my arse

Pretty sure I'm right though

Yeah I know all that, you've done that stuff before but in this case, I am in full agreement with what you wrote. Luckily, we dislike each other clubs immensely so my agreement with you in general is balanced off nicely with my pure disdain for Bayern.

so correct me if I'm wrong Chad, you're arguing that Real was mismanaged pre-Mourinho, then Mourinho was appointed manager and applied common sense, but he shouldn't get credit, cause that's what everybody would do, it's common sense after all, except you didn't before, but that's not to Mou's credit, because, anybody would have managed that, even if you didn't before, because, whatever.

Hapless_Hans wrote:I have to say though, at all his other teams players have a sometimes very close and admiring relation to Mourinho.
Think about Chelsea. Think Ibrahimovic.

So if he got along and defended/protected his other teams and players, yet didn't get along, decided to publicly call out etc players at Madrid, maybe it's not Mourinho that was the problem

Maybe Real's dressing room was quite simply full of poses

had to jump in here....he did have a falling out with some of his players at chelsea before his exit, i think even john terry, who was his guy; i reckon all that is water under the bridge. at inter, he wasn't there long enough to have a falling out and he left when they won all 3 titles, so left in a blaze of glory, it would have probably been the same if he left madrid after season 2....oh and mou and ibra only had 1 season together, before the treble, so who knows what might have happened. remember even after mourinho's first season, it was like him and cristiano were practically inseparable, but we know how that ended

Hapless_Hans wrote:so correct me if I'm wrong Chad, you're arguing that Real was mismanaged pre-Mourinho, then Mourinho was appointed manager and applied common sense, but he shouldn't get credit, cause that's what everybody would do, it's common sense after all, except you didn't before, but that's not to Mou's credit, because, anybody would have managed that, even if you didn't before, because, whatever.

haps your telling me that if flo hired pep/van gaal/ferguson etc, calibre managers and given them full control, they wouldn't clear house? and rebuild?

a lot of posters treat pelle like a joke, yet he had enough insight to ask for robben and sneijder to be kept and flo ignored him cause he ain't elite enough(plus calderon players), look how that worked out, but lets praise the overlord super manager mou.... no

also we all gonna ignore the whole shit storm, about mou having full control over the team by the media, when he was getting the job? why cause its a known fact how the club was being handled, and why the club had trouble getting elite managers before mou