Re: [BOOKS] Game of Thrones for the Literate

by BarrileteCosmico Fri May 29, 2015 1:50 am

That's the way it is in the books, right? Marches implies movement but not fighting. It would make sense and I think D&D said the show wouldn't spoil TWOW. But I think quite a few people would be disappointed that the Battle of Winterfell won't be until S6, everyone is expecting it because the show has conditioned us for a big battle by episode 9.

by zigra Fri May 29, 2015 2:22 am

Well the books had more characters left like Aegon, Euron (Jaime actually doing something) and of course no one ever believed Jon would stay dead. Would be a bigger surprise than Aegon himself imo hmm

What I actually meant however is that quite a lot of people already complained that the show is killing too many of the interesting characters and if they'd lose both Stannis and Jon at the end of the season plus the political end of Cercei they must feel like "wtf is going on I don't want season 6 filled with Sand Snakes, Dany and Samweis lovestory only" :coffee:

Hope you're right regarding the Battle anyway. Well if we get WOW before season 6 Laughing

by M99 Fri May 29, 2015 8:25 am

I really don't think Battle of Ice is this season. If it was they would have had it all over the trailers. The big battle of the season will be Hardhome on next episode. And I know exactly what will happen.

Spoiler:

by zigra Fri May 29, 2015 7:50 pm

You know that? Like you really know? Or you think that's what going to happen?

by urbaNRoots Fri May 29, 2015 7:57 pm

I saw someone say that on reddit, I'll put it in a spoiler in case someone doesn't want to know (Dante, sorry for the Bronn spoiler bro)

E8/E9 spoilers here

Spoiler:

by zigra Fri May 29, 2015 7:59 pm

But at least someone has to die there imo hmm

by urbaNRoots Fri May 29, 2015 8:06 pm

Spoiler:

by BarrileteCosmico Fri May 29, 2015 9:03 pm

"If I could do what Ramsay did to you, I would"

DARTH SANSSA!

I think she's going to run away with Theon and get taken captured by Stannis. Ramsay already set the seeds for this last episode when he mentioned "oh and by the way your half brother is head of the night's watch, oh you didn't know that already?"

It would be interesting to see how Stannis reacts to Theon being there, giving him "King's blood"

by RealGunner Fri May 29, 2015 10:12 pm

Damnnnn didn't realise that

Quite sure Sansa will end up going to the night's watch in the end.

by Sri Fri May 29, 2015 10:39 pm

Sansa of the current season makes me reconsider my decision to watch it. *ugh*

by Dante Sat May 30, 2015 12:48 pm

M99 wrote:I just cannot ignore all the evidence on Aegon being a Blackfyre.

He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."
"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.
"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust."

Yeah right, that is just a random passage. No effin way.

And I read the old ADWD drafts and I agree with people who say GRRM edited it because it was too clear Aegon is a Blackfyre. I'll try to look for it again but there was a lot of exposition of the Blackfyres on the chapter and Tyrion overheard Ilyrio whispering about "the sword" which is obviously the sword Blackfyre which was last seen with Bittersteel. There's also the matter of Golden Company, a small boy's clothes that Tyrion wears in Illyrio's house, young Illyrio's statue description sounding a lot like Aegon, Daenerys's vision on the cloth dragon. Can't ignore all the foreshadowing.

Random?? Probably not. Foreshadowing ? Maybe , maybe not . Can it not be simply background and lore ?? Not everything in these books that seem vague , mysterious or indirect have to be foreshadowing and actually , there can't be so much of foreshadowing all over the place and there's already too much as it is. I think this is simply some well written lore about a place in Westeros , in a very well writen chapter . I get the connection , i honestly do. But this is more or less clutching at straws , when this is being used as evidence . This is as much evidence as it is background for some place in Westeros . However , maybe that's how it was intented to be. Fair enough . In the end , when this is the best argument the faegon believers have , i must say it's not a very solid case to begin with.

Hmm , but didn't he scrap the Blackfyre stuff/war in the end?? I am not quite sure atm , but i remember reading on reddit the community there had reached a point/found out he scrapped the Blackfyre 'return' and that instead of the dance we got the stuff in Meereen. If there's not going to be a second dance , like a repeat of the original , then i don't see why Aegon must/has to be/should be/is faegon. Maybe it was supposed to be faegon; and then GRRM decided he wasn't , maybe that's why paragraphs like the above point to certain things , but with no real substance anymore? I think it's possible that he had planted some signs here and there to point at it , but if he did scrap the Blackfyre 'return' , then it's all moot today and remain as just lore .

As for the clothes Tyrion wore .. i don't see why this should mean he's a Blackfyre. Like , where's the problem if Aegon lived a while with Illyrio anyway? What does that even prove or suggest?? A Targaryen doesn't leave his clothes behind?? I don't get it , Targaryen or Blackfyre , Varys probably had Aegon stay with Illyrio at some point , i don't see what the clothes have to do with it.

For the statue , hmm , is Illyrio a person of grandeur , someone who climbed the laddah from the bottom to the top and is he or is he not someone who was full of himself for what a great bravos (right?) he used to be?? I don't find it implausible for him to have created a statue of his younger self. But , i will concede one thing. This one does make a good case , in the sense that , if Aegon is a Blackfyre , it kinda makes sense to me that Illyrio would do such a thing for him , make a statue for the Great Blackfyre he believes will finally ascend and take revenge for their House. In the end , looks a lot like Aegon , oh well. That's subjective? Illyrio was young once too , given his looks today , any decent young self of his may 'pass' like Aegon in comparison . It's a statue , of which we chance upon through words. Detailed as it might have been , the connection to Aegon is pretty weak , although again , i do concede Illyrio does strike me as such a person that would do such a thing , if he is/was a Blackfyre.

by M99 Sat May 30, 2015 12:57 pm

I never heard of GRRM completely scrapping a Blackfyre return storyline. Any link to it?

And about the clothes and the statues, that is theory on how Aegon is Illyrio's son instead of Rhaegar's. The male line of Blackfyres went extinct but Illyrio's wife may have been a Blackfyre descendant. I am still 50-50 on Aegon being a Blackfyre but I am pretty sure he is Illyrio's son.

Also another thing. The Mountain smashed the head of the infant against the wall and his face was a bloody mess. Wow that was such a lucky break for Varys. The baby is killed in such a way that no one will be able to recognize if it were a fake. Yeah that's a pretty big coincidence.

by Dante Sat May 30, 2015 1:00 pm

M99 wrote:I've made my peace with it, she is not coming to the show. They said it and Michelle Fairley being on the set would not have been kept quiet. But the episode name ffs, I refuse to believe it was not intentional. Selyse will probably burn Shireen or Daenerys will do some shit (pun intended).

Also on Aegon, TWOIAF established there were quite a few Targ descendants on Essos through Aegon V/Egg's sisters and also Aerion Brightflame had some bastards. Some people think Aegon might be descended from them but I am rock solid on him being a Blackfyre

yeah ive given up on LS myself .

I think the one descended from one of them , is Varys , and not Aegon. Which is why i believe The Mad King brought him to Westeros close to him and why i think he's pro Targaryen today with Aegon. He's descended from Targaryens . Think about it . Of all people , the Mad King brings a stranger from Essos to do such a vital job for him and trust him with very very serious matters . It doesn't make sense , at all . But if he knew Varys was descended from Targaryens?? Gain an ally out of nowhere?? That does makes sense.

by Dante Sat May 30, 2015 1:11 pm

M99 wrote:I never heard of GRRM completely scrapping a Blackfyre return storyline. Any link to it?

And about the clothes and the statues, that is theory on how Aegon is Illyrio's son instead of Rhaegar's. The male line of Blackfyres went extinct but Illyrio's wife may have been a Blackfyre descendant. I am still 50-50 on Aegon being a Blackfyre but I am pretty sure he is Illyrio's son.

Also another thing. The Mountain smashed the head of the infant against the wall and his face was a bloody mess. Wow that was such a lucky break for Varys. The baby is killed in such a way that no one will be able to recognize if it were a fake. Yeah that's a pretty big coincidence.

This isn't from GRRM . It's what i read from reddit and i agree with it. With a few words , it had something to do with the act 1 , act 2 and act 3 of the entire storyline , something like that. And where it all seemed the Blackfyres would be , we have the Meereen battle . Many thought the Blackfyres have been scrapped because of it , because simply there might not be room and time for it anymore.

Yes , i know the theory. I think it's more complicated to make Aegon be Illyrion's son than Rhaegar's , but that's just me.

As for what you say on Varys . Can't that work for either of us , for our argument?? You say that's convinient for him , i say that's how it happened anyway. I don't see where the problem is . Varys can smuggle anything in and out of King's Landing and especially in and out of the Red Keep. Where's the issue if he sacrificed one of his birds for the prince?? He would never think twice tbh , especially if he was told to by Rhaegar .

I think Varys knew full well of Rhaegar's plan to dethrone his father and Varys believed in him to become a great king. I think this is why Varys adviced the Mad King not to open the gates to Tywin , so when Rhaegar returned , the Targaryens would still have the Throne and Rhaegar could realise his plans.

It all went to shiit , so maybe that's why Varys did what he did , to realise Rhaegar's vision/plans for the Kingdom and reinstall a king that could make it happen. All of this is much simpler of a theory than make a case of Blackfyres and Illyrio in it , don't you think ?

by Dante Sat May 30, 2015 1:28 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Alright Dante let's boil down your argument. Basically you're saying that:

Varys never said he's a Targ, therefore he's a Blackfyre.

Okay, I agree that's a pretty dumb argument. Next.

The only way for this to work is for Illyrio to play Varys.

I'm confused as to how you reach this conclusion. The entire plan is impossible without Varys. If he were a Targ then Varys would have been the one to swap the childs. Varys would thus completely know whether he's a Targ or not.

But I agree with your first paragraphs:

Dante:

It doesn't matter if he's a Targ or a Blackfyre because there's no way to prove it. What matters is that this ambiguity will be used against him when he invades Westeros. People that will not support him will try to discredit him by calling him a pretender or Blackfyre whereas supporters will claim he is a Targ.

I agree with m99 that he's likelier to be a Blackfyre, but it doesn't really matter, because red or black a dragon is still a dragon.

happy we agree on that at least. That argument has become really weak with time.

On Illyrio playing Varys. Sorry , that was my bad because you misunderstood me , my wall of text and poor use of the language made it complicated. I didn't mean that. I meant , from what we know , Varys thinks this is Aegon Targaryen. To have Illyrio doing something with the originl kid and swapping it with a Blackfyre/his son Blackfyre , that would be lame. You can't destroy Varys' only friend in this story , not with such a life and background .

In the end , Varys would know if he's a Blackfyre or a Targaryen , agreed it can't be anything else . Hence why i say , since he believes this to be Rhaegar's son , it can't be Illyrio playing him and maybe swapping the child with a Blackfyre/his son Blackfyre . Destroying Varys' one friend in order to prove Faegon , it's just wrong. So with that going in mind , as far as Varys means Aegon Targaryen , then it is Aegon Targaryen , you cannot deprive him of that one friend , no matter how resourcefull , cunning , smart , anything Varys is. Everybody needs someone , at least one on their side. Especially for such a plan as with Aegon.

For the rest , yeah , that's how i see it anyway. Blackfyre or a Targaryen , it really doesn't matter at all. Maybe that's all the proof we need doe?? What does it even matter if he's a Blackfyre ?? Who even cares?? The readers , the people in Westeros? It's more than likely that even if he is , we cannot just find out , both Westerosi and readers. So why bother?? I could accept it all , but i am yet to be convinced tbh. I just don't see the endgame.

Aegon wins the throne and... he's secretly a Blackfyre. Took revenge for dead people who he never knew and he doesn't even know what he did for them in the first place , all that happened because Illyrio and Varys wanted a blackfyre on the throne. yay

Does it make sense to you?? Does it sound good to read? I know i neither like it nor would i particularly care at all. Let's not forget Varys and Illyrio's plan go as far back as the first book , at a time i am pretty sure there was no Blackfyres invloved in GRRM head . In general , the Blackfyres thing seems like something that came on the road , felt possibly good to make but then lead to nowhere and it's nothing but lore and story for Dunk and Egg nowdays.

by urbaNRoots Sat May 30, 2015 2:00 pm

In the end, does it really matter if he is fake or not so long as the people of Westeros believe it?

As Varys said "Power resides where men believe it resides". Aegon will get followers either way because great houses
don't see a Targaryen or a Blackfyre in him, what they see is opportunity. Tarly, Hightower, almost everyone in Dorne, Stormlanders will all jump ship soon.

Nothing can be proved against him with the knowledge everyone has in the. Pycelle could have confirmed but he's dead, only Varys/Illyrio know if there's something wrong and they CAN'T tell absolutely. He's Aegon VI Targaryen according to the right people, everything else is irrelevant. I don't think it'll ever be proved either, only hints from the author.

by zigra Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:22 am

Decided that I have to rewatch it but I enjoyed it hmm

by M99 Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:26 pm

What an amazing episode.

Valyrian steel can kill The Others = confirmed

by BarrileteCosmico Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:28 pm

I get that it wasn't confirmed before... But nearly everyone thought that it could, right? Why the overreaction in some forums?

by M99 Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:34 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I get that it wasn't confirmed before... But nearly everyone thought that it could, right? Why the overreaction in some forums?

Loool forget about those book elitists. r/asoiaf seems fine with it. I always knew dragonsteel = valyrian steel. It's one of those blatantly obvious things like Bloodraven being Three Eyed Crow.

by zigra Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:46 pm

I thought this was about as obvious as R+L=J
You wouldn't expect a WW to break a valyrian stell sword

WW pleb couldn't beat the goatcommander Proud

Tbh don't get the overreaction regarding the army of zombies.. no reason why Drogon won't have an easy time with them imo hmm

Btw we still expect the WW to be more than just a group of bad guys who want to kill everyone right?

by RealGunner Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:56 pm

They basically confirmed Jon as Azor Ahai Laughing

Anyone thought that the wildling woman was Val?

by zigra Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:19 pm

Why?

Anyway it wouldn't come as a surprise but I still have hope he isn't AA. I actually still hope the prophecy is just bs and we don't really get the "promised good prince saves the day"-cliche though I'm afraid that's exactly what's going to happen.

But as long as it hasn't been confirmed I remain hopeful that GRRM is better than that Molenation

Didn't think of Val tbh but I think she (the actress) could've been a nice addition to the show.

by RealGunner Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:27 pm

This show is gearing towards good vs evil for a long time. Others are the worst evil out there while Jon and Daenerys are the best people alive.

The way they filmed that scene. Making Jon THE man to face the night's king. It fulfils every prophecy made for Azor Ahai. He is the prince that was promised. To fight the others in the long night. I actually don't think the TV show will bother to go in depth with the theory. They barely ever talk about stuff like that as it's better in narrative.

by Eman Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:32 pm

They'll probably just have Melisandre be like 'aww shit I done goofed, Jon Snow is going to save us all now' and they'll leave it at that. It'll be interesting to see how they explain his parents though; maybe Howland Reed will eventually show up? hmm

On another note, of the many TV/book changes that they have made this season, I really hope that they don't shorten the Stannis v. Boltons storyline as quickly as they seem to be doing so far. The Greyjoys haven't even been mentioned this season, let alone the other northern houses involved.

by RealGunner Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:35 pm

Bran

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