Re: USA gun violence thread

[BarrileteCosmico]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

[Guest]

The felony rate for blacks is 1178 per 100,000 where as it is 330 per 100,000 for whites.

Maybe there is a racism endemic in the police force, but it would be interesting to see if blacks sorted their shit out if their relations with the police would improve.

There is no maybe about it. I am neither African American, nor Caucasian American, but its as clear as day from the outside there is a HUGE problem in terms of racism in not only the police force, but even the justice system in terms of sentencing as you mention.

Taking your felony statement as an example:

"Crack cocaine sentencing presents a particularly egregious case. Since the 1980s, federal penalties for crack were 100 times harsher than those for powder cocaine, with African Americans disproportionately sentenced to much lengthier terms. But, in 2010, DPA played a key role in reducing the crack/powder sentencing disparity from 100:1 to 18:1, and we are committed to passing legislation that would eliminate the disparity entirely."

http://www.drugpolicy.org/race-and-drug-war

The felony rate is another example of the racism of the system. I also think it goes further than African Americans just "Sorting their shit out". Historically when such things take place, such as black wall street, the system even used their own air force to kill people doing well for themselves as seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

Are you saying the felony rate is just a result of racism in the system?
I don't see how that would be compatible with the idea that blacks communities are more disposed to commit crime because they are less well off than average. Ands its 2015 now not 1924.

Yes, the felony rate is the result of racism when you consider the war on drugs targets drugs used more commonly by African Americans with harsher sentences.

And even if it was basic economics, that would still be a result of racism considering the vast majority of African Americans are poor directly because of racial policies of the past. This isn't just a 1924 thing either. Redlining exists today, and it still effects African Americans trying to better themselves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

[Guest]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

I'm not too sure about that. Most of white America is poor too:

-38 percent of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.
-51 percent of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.
-62 percent of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.
-71 percent of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-21/goodbye-middle-class-51-all-american-workers-make-less-30000-year

Most Americans are poor. Just African Americans, and Hispanic Americans, are the ones in high policed areas where the justice system is looking to make a profit for the prison industrial complex by getting them through the school to prison pipeline.

[DuringTheWar]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

And they also have mind numbingly ridiculous single motherhood rates

[Guest]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

And they also have mind numbingly ridiculous single motherhood rates

That is a conservative talking point. What does single motherhood rates have to do with Crime? Our president spent the majority of his childhood in a single mother household.

Its naive to think if a bunch of couples got/stayed married that institutional racism wouldnt exist. Legitimacy rates were higher during Jim Crow, and white America still showed it despised African Americans.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

I'm not too sure about that. Most of white America is poor too:

-38 percent of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.
-51 percent of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.
-62 percent of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.
-71 percent of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-21/goodbye-middle-class-51-all-american-workers-make-less-30000-year

Most Americans are poor. Just African Americans, and Hispanic Americans, are the ones in high policed areas where the justice system is looking to make a profit for the prison industrial complex by getting them through the school to prison pipeline.

Right okay, but there are almost no blacks in the "rich" areas. I work for corporate america where almost everyone makes above average pay (this being 50k) and we have a ton of Indians, a ton of Asians, a ton of whites, some middle easterns, some jews, a few hispanics and almost no blacks in my office. While it's strue that there are a lot of poor white people in America, as a proportion of their ethnic group they compose a lower rate than blacks and hispanics.

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

And they also have mind numbingly ridiculous single motherhood rates

Again, I would like to see how relevant this is adjusted for class/income. It seems obvious to me that poor families have more single parenthood rates.

[Guest]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

I'm not too sure about that. Most of white America is poor too:

-38 percent of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.
-51 percent of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.
-62 percent of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.
-71 percent of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-21/goodbye-middle-class-51-all-american-workers-make-less-30000-year

Most Americans are poor. Just African Americans, and Hispanic Americans, are the ones in high policed areas where the justice system is looking to make a profit for the prison industrial complex by getting them through the school to prison pipeline.

Right okay, but there are almost no blacks in the "rich" areas. I work for corporate america where almost everyone makes above average pay (this being 50k) and we have a ton of Indians, a ton of Asians, a ton of whites, some middle easterns, some jews, a few hispanics and almost no blacks in my office. While it's strue that there are a lot of poor white people in America, as a proportion of their ethnic group they compose a lower rate than blacks and hispanics.

You must remember demographics also play a part. Due to slavery you will only really find concentrations of African Americans in either the South, or in major city areas that were accommodating to them during the great Migration of the 20th century. The lack of African Americans in your office is most likely due to this fact.

I feel this is also why keeping Affirmative Action is important in increasing numbers for women, and Blacks/Hispanics. More opportunities for the most vulnerable of our nation, makes the rest of us stronger.

[BarrileteCosmico]

While it's true that MA is only 8% black (I thought it was higher tbh, just looked it up), that number is not at all what I see when I work either in my office or visit other ones, I'd say in corporate jobs it's closer to 1-2% in this area. Of course my experience is anecdotal but I think it's undeniable that as a proportion of income black people are generally poorer than other ethnic groups in america, and this shapes all the blanket statistics that show up in the media about them.

[Guest]

While it's true that MA is only 8% black (I thought it was higher tbh, just looked it up), that number is not at all what I see when I work either in my office or visit other ones, I'd say in corporate jobs it's closer to 1-2% in this area. Of course my experience is anecdotal but I think it's undeniable that as a proportion of income black people are generally poor than other ethnic groups in america, and this shapes all the blanket statistics that show up in the media about them.

I hear MA(Boston specifically) is one of the most racist places in America though. Could it be blacks with means usually jump ship from the state to get work?

[DuringTheWar]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

And they also have mind numbingly ridiculous single motherhood rates

That is a conservative talking point. What does single motherhood rates have to do with Crime? Our president spent the majority of his childhood in a single mother household.

Its naive to think if a bunch of couples got/stayed married that institutional racism wouldnt exist. Legitimacy rates were higher during Jim Crow, and white America still showed it despised African Americans.

Its annoying when people point out someone that "made it" for the purpose of showing single motherhood is actually great really or just as good as having support from double the number of people, which is a sort of liberal talking point as they basically subsidized it, right? I would dislike feminists a lot less if they actually thought this was a serious problem. (I grew up in a single parent household)

It is common sense to me that having an overworked overstressed parent who simply cannot do the job of two people at once is going to make a bad situation (being poor) ten times worse.

According to Barriletcosmico it isn't relevant because it strongly correlates with low income groups, in fact I firmly believe it is indeed low income groups that are hit the worst by single motherhood, the combination of poverty and the fractured dysfunctional family life is deadly, and as betty la fea pointed out the black family was more intact under Jim crow, so poverty and oppression definitely does not make single parenthood inevitable.



http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/syc87.pdf

[Guest]

And they also have mind numbingly ridiculous single motherhood rates

That is a conservative talking point. What does single motherhood rates have to do with Crime? Our president spent the majority of his childhood in a single mother household.

Its naive to think if a bunch of couples got/stayed married that institutional racism wouldnt exist. Legitimacy rates were higher during Jim Crow, and white America still showed it despised African Americans.

Its annoying when people point out someone that "made it" for the purpose of showing single motherhood is actually great really or just as good as having support from double the number of people, which is a sort of liberal talking point as they basically subsidized it, right? I would dislike feminists a lot less if they actually thought this was a serious problem. (I grew up in a single parent household)

It is common sense to me that having an overworked overstressed parent who simply cannot do the job of two people at once is going to make a bad situation (being poor) ten times worse.

According to Barriletcosmico it isn't relevant because it strongly correlates with low income groups, in fact I firmly believe it is indeed low income groups that are hit the worst by single motherhood, the combination of poverty and the fractured dysfunctional family life is deadly, and as betty la fea pointed out the black family was more intact under Jim crow, so poverty and oppression definitely does not make single parenthood inevitable.



http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/syc87.pdf

You are right bringing up Obama was a cheap ploy. I will however ask why exactly is raising a kid a two person job in modern times? Especially when we have reached a stage where people live longer(Grandparents present) and infant mortality has gone down(healthier babies, and likely more uncle and aunts present). I think a single parent could handle it quite effectively alone. Did you feel cheated growing up in a one parent household by chance? Are you a felon now?

[Adit]

I am pro gun now. I have changed.


Bunch of savages comes at night to steel petrol from my motorbikes... Absolute savages. They dont even worth me going to jail so looking for some kind of trap that can hurt. Also thinking of buying a bull dog.

[VivaStPauli]

Just call 911 ffs.

[Adit]

Comes at night after like 3 AM.lol.. They steals every two weeks and puts the petrol pipes back in place. Nice lads I suppose. I don't think cops will do anything, they don't really have any technique to catch these night thefts.

[rwo power]

What about getting a garage for your bikes? The people here I know with bikes always lock them away over night. IMO the more reasonable approach instead of getting a gun to shoot people...

[sportsczy]

I actually think it's better to have gun sales open in the US so you can keep track of the people who buy guns... the issue is that we don't keep better track of these people.  Like drugs, buying guns isn't going to become very difficult even if it becomes illegal or incredibly hard to purchase legally.  It'll just go underground and then you have no way of tracking things.

Better background checks...  more resources spent to track people with guns.  Heck, maybe there's a way to put tracking devices on all the guns.

[DuringTheWar]

That is a conservative talking point. What does single motherhood rates have to do with Crime? Our president spent the majority of his childhood in a single mother household.

Its naive to think if a bunch of couples got/stayed married that institutional racism wouldnt exist. Legitimacy rates were higher during Jim Crow, and white America still showed it despised African Americans.

Its annoying when people point out someone that "made it" for the purpose of showing single motherhood is actually great really or just as good as having support from double the number of people, which is a sort of liberal talking point as they basically subsidized it, right? I would dislike feminists a lot less if they actually thought this was a serious problem. (I grew up in a single parent household)

It is common sense to me that having an overworked overstressed parent who simply cannot do the job of two people at once is going to make a bad situation (being poor) ten times worse.

According to Barriletcosmico it isn't relevant because it strongly correlates with low income groups, in fact I firmly believe it is indeed low income groups that are hit the worst by single motherhood, the combination of poverty and the fractured dysfunctional family life is deadly, and as betty la fea pointed out the black family was more intact under Jim crow, so poverty and oppression definitely does not make single parenthood inevitable.



http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/syc87.pdf

You are right bringing up Obama was a cheap ploy. I will however ask why exactly is raising a kid a two person job in modern times? Especially when we have reached a stage where people live longer(Grandparents present) and infant mortality has gone down(healthier babies, and likely more uncle and aunts present). I think a single parent could handle it quite effectively alone. Did you feel cheated growing up in a one parent household by chance? Are you a felon now?

I'm not saying it's not possible to raise a kid effectively alone, even though a mother can never be a father and vice versa.
But let's be honest, we're talking about welfare queens who give birth to something like 5 kids, beat their kids, and have a below average IQ.

[Guest]

Its annoying when people point out someone that "made it" for the purpose of showing single motherhood is actually great really or just as good as having support from double the number of people, which is a sort of liberal talking point as they basically subsidized it, right? I would dislike feminists a lot less if they actually thought this was a serious problem. (I grew up in a single parent household)

It is common sense to me that having an overworked overstressed parent who simply cannot do the job of two people at once is going to make a bad situation (being poor) ten times worse.

According to Barriletcosmico it isn't relevant because it strongly correlates with low income groups, in fact I firmly believe it is indeed low income groups that are hit the worst by single motherhood, the combination of poverty and the fractured dysfunctional family life is deadly, and as betty la fea pointed out the black family was more intact under Jim crow, so poverty and oppression definitely does not make single parenthood inevitable.



http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/syc87.pdf

You are right bringing up Obama was a cheap ploy. I will however ask why exactly is raising a kid a two person job in modern times? Especially when we have reached a stage where people live longer(Grandparents present) and infant mortality has gone down(healthier babies, and likely more uncle and aunts present). I think a single parent could handle it quite effectively alone. Did you feel cheated growing up in a one parent household by chance? Are you a felon now?

I'm not saying it's not possible to raise a kid effectively alone, even though a mother can never be a father and vice versa.
But let's be honest, we're talking about welfare queens who give birth to something like 5 kids, beat their kids, and have a below average IQ.

Hm Interesting.

[Guest]

Obama executive order increases background checks for all guns bought in person, or online. Great move.

Proud of my president this afternoon.

[McLewis]

The GOP-controlled congress will fight this tooth and nail since they hold the purse strings to funding the initiatives that this order calls for. As impactful and emotional as that speech was, the EO will not have the intended impact. Was never meant to. Obama knows this. He said as much that this won't do enough and it won't happen during this Congress or this presidency. The only way for anything meaningful to happen is for Obama's successor to take up this fight and keeping it going. Clinton is probably the only candidate from both sides that appears willing to do this so a win for her in the election is obviously what Obama hopes for here. If she loses though, all of this will be for nothing.

[CBarca]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/03/29/man-fatally-shot-ariz-police-officer-begged-life/82393582/

Unbelievable.

1) That this actually happened
2) That he's being charged for it. Which is good, all things considered. However, for some reason I feel like he's getting charged because the person he shot is white.

I'm curious. If the victim were black, would the officer be terminated and charged?

There is a lot of me that says no.

[Unique]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2016/03/29/man-fatally-shot-ariz-police-officer-begged-life/82393582/

Unbelievable.

1) That this actually happened
2) That he's being charged for it. Which is good, all things considered. However, for some reason I feel like he's getting charged because the person he shot is white.

I'm curious. If the victim were black, would the officer be terminated and charged?

There is a lot of me that says no.

are you allowed to shoot black people in texas then.

[RealGunner]

Did Alton Sterling get shot just because he was selling CDs?

[I Have Mono]

Did Alton Sterling get shot just because he was selling CDs?

Seriously ?
911 call for an individual matching his (Alton Sterling's) description who threatened someone (911 caller) with a gun.
Police show up
Police confront Sterling
Sterling pinned on back on the ground
Officers see gun in right front pocket
Sterling's right hand is free
Officers tell him not to move
Sterling continues to move his right arm
Officers shoot him

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/national/new-alton-sterling-video-shows-didn-pull-gun-police-article-1.2701540?client=safari#

Link has video of shooting where you can see his right arm moving after being told to freeze.
Why is that important ?
Because
1) call of man threating person with a gun
2) gun is in right front pant pocket
3) right hand is free and moving

Based on those conditions and that he was told to stop moving and continued moving his right arm where the gun was, created  the belief by the officers that they were in fear of their lives or great bodily harm of either themselves or another person including eachother.  You can still shoot a gun while it is in your pocket. Pants dont prevent that.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/06/new-video-shows-alton-sterling-was-not-holding-a-gun-when-baton-rogue-police-killed-him.html

[Clutch]

Cops should have handled the situation better, fact. No dancing around that statement. If the report is true, they should've warned him that they will shoot him if he doesnt abide.

[Blue Barrett]

Did Alton Sterling get shot just because he was selling CDs?

Seriously ?
911 call for an individual matching his (Alton Sterling's) description who threatened someone (911 caller) with a gun.
Police show up
Police confront Sterling
Sterling pinned on back on the ground
Officers see gun in right front pocket
Sterling's right hand is free
Officers tell him not to move
Sterling continues to move his right arm
Officers shoot him

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydailynews.com/amp/news/national/new-alton-sterling-video-shows-didn-pull-gun-police-article-1.2701540?client=safari#

Link has video of shooting where you can see his right arm moving after being told to freeze.
Why is that important ?
Because
1) call of man threating person with a gun
2) gun is in right front pant pocket
3) right hand is free and moving

Based on those conditions and that he was told to stop moving and continued moving his right arm where the gun was, created  the belief by the officers that they were in fear of their lives or great bodily harm of either themselves or another person including eachother.  You can still shoot a gun while it is in your pocket. Pants dont prevent that.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/07/06/new-video-shows-alton-sterling-was-not-holding-a-gun-when-baton-rogue-police-killed-him.html

PLEASE quit the bullshit. The store owner - who by the way said Alton had been selling CDs outside his store for years and they had no problems - said he didn't see or hear any altercations between Alton and anybody that required police showing up in the first place.

Store owner also confirmed Alton didn't have his hand in his pocket or move his hand towards his pocket. You can't see that from the video either. You've just pinned someone to the ground violently, aren't you going to give him even a few seconds to be calm?

All that being said, even IF he was moving his hand towards his pocket where the gun was, there were TWO cops on him. They could have EASILY restrained that hand. Hell, shoot him with a taser or something if you think he doesn't want to calm down for whatever reason.

They shot him SIX times. SIX times. That was an execution. Please don't come here trying to defend what those cops did. It's actually okay to admit it when a cop does a bad job. They're human like the rest of us. No one is perfect. They shit the bed there and it's perfectly fine to say it.

And then when asked about body cameras, they conveniently say their body cameras (which would have captured the entire thing) got lost in the scuffle. And then they went ahead and confiscated the CCTV footage from the store owners.

Please. Cut the bullshit.

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