Re: USA gun violence thread

[Peccadillo]

When I say America I am not referring to its entire populace and acknowledge that it is the sensible majority of Americans that suffer more than anyone for such lunatic politics.

[VendettaRed07]

Pretty solid speech. Obama wants to restrict gun sales to those on the no-fly list. This should be common sense, but knowing our right-wing party it won't happen.

Pretty amazing that gun sales to suspected terrorists weren't prohibited already.

You guys have to understand what a constitution right entails

I disagree that owning a gun should be a right, it should be a privilege.. But it's there and we can't just ignore it.

There is no due process in who winds up on these lists, and you can wind up on no fly lists for a variety of ridiculous reasons. There is no proof that anyone on these lists is actually dangerous. The government needs to prove they are actually a threat if they want to take a way a right of theirs that has been granted to them. Arbitrary lists that have no transparency on how you get on it or clear method on how to get off are not legitimate reasons to ban someone from doing something everyone else has the right to do.

This isn't just a case of the right wing NRA lackeys being asses.. Even if they didn't oppose it any laws that try to impose this will get laughed out of the courts.

[RealGunner]

Tamir Rice case: Police not to face charges over killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347



???????????

[Art Morte]

Tamir Rice case: Police not to face charges over killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347



???????????

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

[VivaStPauli]

Yeah with the Tamir Rice case, I actually think that's just tragic, and, if it's not too soon, a bit stupid by the kid.
At least if the facts are like they are presented in the BBC article linked.

If someone pulls a gun on me, I also wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt. There's other cases of police murdering minorities to get riled up about.

[Guest]

Pretty solid speech. Obama wants to restrict gun sales to those on the no-fly list. This should be common sense, but knowing our right-wing party it won't happen.

Pretty amazing that gun sales to suspected terrorists weren't prohibited already.

You guys have to understand what a constitution right entails

I disagree that owning a gun should be a right, it should be a privilege.. But it's there and we can't just ignore it.

There is no due process in who winds up on these lists, and you can wind up on no fly lists for a variety of ridiculous reasons. There is no proof that anyone on these lists is actually dangerous. The government needs to prove they are actually a threat if they want to take a way a right of theirs that has been granted to them. Arbitrary lists that have no transparency on how you get on it or clear method on how to get off are not legitimate reasons to ban someone from doing something everyone else has the right to do.

This isn't just a case of the right wing NRA lackeys being asses.. Even if they didn't oppose it any laws that try to impose this will get laughed out of the courts.

Funny thing is, these rights are not absolute. My grandfather, and his siblings, were all US citizens protected by the constition yet still ended up in internment camps with many others. Their rights were easily stripped away from them the same way we can strip away the second amendment from people who shouldn't have it.

[Guest]

Tamir Rice case: Police not to face charges over killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347



???????????

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

[Art Morte]

Tamir Rice case: Police not to face charges over killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347



???????????

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

Police quickly realized the gun was actually a BB gun that Rothenberg had purchased earlier in the day.

There's the difference, not in the colour of the skin. If you're a cop and realise it's a toy gun, well, good, but that cannot be taken for granted when it looks like a real one. Personally I would have understood in her case, too, if the cops had shot her.

[Guest]

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

Police quickly realized the gun was actually a BB gun that Rothenberg had purchased earlier in the day.

There's the difference, not in the colour of the skin. If you're a cop and realise it's a toy gun, well, good, but that cannot be taken for granted when it looks like a real one. Personally I would have understood in her case, too, if the cops had shot her.

Do you think police would have let a black person point this at them, and still think its a toy?



Man I am from the American south and seen guns all my life, and I would think this was real.

[Art Morte]

How can we know for certain? In the report on the kid it's said the cops didn't recognise the gun for a toy, in the report on the old lady it's said they recognised it quickly for a toy. If we go by that info, there's your difference in outcome. Plus in the kid's case it said he drew it from his waistband, meaning the cops couldn't have had a clear look at the gun.

[BarrileteCosmico]

The cops should go to jail for negligence if nothing else, this article gets it compeltely right:

the central concept in the case—the one that it is crucial to understanding the grand jury’s reasoning—was never mentioned. That concept is known in law enforcement circles as “officer-created jeopardy”: situations in which police officers are responsible for needlessly putting themselves in danger, committing an unforced tactical error that makes them vulnerable—and then using deadly force to protect themselves.

Here’s how “officer-created jeopardy” relates to the death of Tamir Rice. As security footage of the shooting shows, Loehmann and Garmback’s car didn’t come to a stop until it was right next to Rice. In fact, the video indicates that the car was still moving when Loehmann opened the passenger side door and jumped out. Faced with a suspect they believed to be armed, in other words, Loehmann and Garmback decided to drive right up to him—thereby exposing themselves to the possibility that Rice could open fire on them with almost no warning.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/28/tamir_rice_s_death_didn_t_lead_to_indictments_because_of_supreme_court_vagueness.html

The level of stupidity is off the charts.

The operator who didn't relay the information that the caller believed it may have been a toy gun should also be sent to jail for gross negligency. Doesn't that seem like a fact of extreme importance a police officer should be aware of?

[Guest]

How can we know for certain? In the report on the kid it's said the cops didn't recognise the gun for a toy, in the report on the old lady it's said they recognised it quickly for a toy. If we go by that info, there's your difference in outcome. Plus in the kid's case it said he drew it from his waistband, meaning the cops couldn't have had a clear look at the gun.

We know because of the systemic history of police abuse against Black Americans. The cop recognized immediately that gun was a toy in the woman's case because he was not bringing that history with him when he ran across her. The same was not given to young tamer rice, who was shot within seconds of cops appearing out of nowhere judging by the video.

[Unique]

Tamir Rice case: Police not to face charges over killing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35191347



???????????

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

[VivaStPauli]

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

I'd explicitly say that more than would be socially acceptable seem to rather enjoy a good "legal murder", if given the opportunity.

[Freeza]

Every police officer seems like Martin Riggs. Are they never shooting to disarm?

[Guest]

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

Of course not, but they know that we as a society value those lives less than white ones so if they do shoot someone being black would be ideal.

[Unique]

Every police officer seems like Martin Riggs. Are they never shooting to disarm?

they do shoot to disarm. double tap to center mass will disarm no problem

[Guest]

Every police officer seems like Martin Riggs. Are they never shooting to disarm?

they do shoot to disarm. double tap to center mass will disarm no problem

Its actually pretty sickening the cops here kill so many people.

You are pretty blessed to live in a place where not only firearm homicide is rare, but also where cops are not always on edge to kill so many people.

When I travel its like living in a different world when you turn on the local news, and the first story is not somebody being shot.

[Unique]

Every police officer seems like Martin Riggs. Are they never shooting to disarm?

they do shoot to disarm. double tap to center mass will disarm no problem

Its actually pretty sickening the cops here kill so many people.

You are pretty blessed to live in a place where not only firearm homicide is rare, but also where cops are not always on edge to kill so many people.

When I travel its like living in a different world when you turn on the local news, and the first story is not somebody being shot.

tbf being a police man in the usa is a very dangerous job.they can get shot at any time maybe that's why they shoot a lot of people. gun crime or murder is not a real problem in England. however it does happen. I have seen 2 people murdered first hand. and I know personaly 3 other people that have committed murder. and a few people that have been murdered without anyone being cought for the crime.

[Freeza]

I have never seen a gun been fired God I love Denmark in this specific case

[Guest]

they do shoot to disarm. double tap to center mass will disarm no problem

Its actually pretty sickening the cops here kill so many people.

You are pretty blessed to live in a place where not only firearm homicide is rare, but also where cops are not always on edge to kill so many people.

When I travel its like living in a different world when you turn on the local news, and the first story is not somebody being shot.

tbf being a police man in the usa is a very dangerous job.they can get shot at any time maybe that's why they shoot a lot of people. gun crime or murder is not a real problem in England. however it does happen. I have seen 2 people murdered first hand. and I know personaly 3 other people that have committed murder. and a few people that have been murdered without anyone being cought for the crime.

Actually, being a Law Enforcement Officer in America today is as safe as its ever been, and most die in regular old car accidents than being shot and killed:https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2012-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted

You are actually more likely to die as a farmer, or even as a Garbage man here than as an officer:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/blake-fleetwood/how-dangerous-is-police-w_b_6373798.html

These jobs usually get guys who want to put in a few years, get a fat pension, and then retire at the ripe old age of 50.

I am about 15 years younger than you, and probably lived in a much higher income area than you(and most in the US to be honest), and in my youngish life I have known ~ 10 people alone who have been killed, or arrested, under gun charges. While it is the wild west in certain aspects of the civilian population, it has not really moved towards Law Enforcement officers.

[rwo power]

I have never seen a gun been fired God I love Denmark in this specific case

Same here (Germany, that is)

BTW, I know no one who got murdered (by any means, not just guns) in my whole circle of friends, nor do I know anyone who owns a gun. The people I know who died only died from natural causes like old age or illnesses.

[DuringTheWar]

Well, that is such a tough one to judge on. A pellet gun looks real, it didn't have the orange strip indicating it's a pellet gun and according to the report he pulled the gun out of his waistband in the presence of the cops. It's a tragic incident, but I think the cops have to deal with the weapon as if it's real.

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

The felony rate for blacks is 1178 per 100,000 where as it is 330 per 100,000 for whites.

Maybe there is a racism endemic in the police force, but it would be interesting to see if blacks sorted their shit out if their relations with the police would improve.

[Guest]

A woman pointed a toy(BB) gun at police in this country and was not killed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-points-bb-gun-cops-yelling-boom-boom-boom-article-1.2477494?utm_content=buffer61d3b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDailyNewsTw

The unfair truth in this country is that there are different rules if you are black than if you are white. It is our national shame.

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

The felony rate for blacks is 1178 per 100,000 where as it is 330 per 100,000 for whites.

Maybe there is a racism endemic in the police force, but it would be interesting to see if blacks sorted their shit out if their relations with the police would improve.

There is no maybe about it. I am neither African American, nor Caucasian American, but its as clear as day from the outside there is a HUGE problem in terms of racism in not only the police force, but even the justice system in terms of sentencing as you mention.

Taking your felony statement as an example:

"Crack cocaine sentencing presents a particularly egregious case. Since the 1980s, federal penalties for crack were 100 times harsher than those for powder cocaine, with African Americans disproportionately sentenced to much lengthier terms. But, in 2010, DPA played a key role in reducing the crack/powder sentencing disparity from 100:1 to 18:1, and we are committed to passing legislation that would eliminate the disparity entirely."

http://www.drugpolicy.org/race-and-drug-war

The felony rate is another example of the racism of the system. I also think it goes further than African Americans just "Sorting their shit out". Historically when such things take place, such as black wall street, the system even used their own air force to kill people doing well for themselves as seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

[DuringTheWar]

are you implying that in the USA the police are out to shoot black people any chance they get.

The felony rate for blacks is 1178 per 100,000 where as it is 330 per 100,000 for whites.

Maybe there is a racism endemic in the police force, but it would be interesting to see if blacks sorted their shit out if their relations with the police would improve.

There is no maybe about it. I am neither African American, nor Caucasian American, but its as clear as day from the outside there is a HUGE problem in terms of racism in not only the police force, but even the justice system in terms of sentencing as you mention.

Taking your felony statement as an example:

"Crack cocaine sentencing presents a particularly egregious case. Since the 1980s, federal penalties for crack were 100 times harsher than those for powder cocaine, with African Americans disproportionately sentenced to much lengthier terms. But, in 2010, DPA played a key role in reducing the crack/powder sentencing disparity from 100:1 to 18:1, and we are committed to passing legislation that would eliminate the disparity entirely."

http://www.drugpolicy.org/race-and-drug-war

The felony rate is another example of the racism of the system. I also think it goes further than African Americans just "Sorting their shit out". Historically when such things take place, such as black wall street, the system even used their own air force to kill people doing well for themselves as seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_riot

Are you saying the felony rate is just a result of racism in the system?
I don't see how that would be compatible with the idea that blacks communities are more disposed to commit crime because they are less well off than average. Ands its 2015 now not 1924.

[BarrileteCosmico]

I think most of that felony stat could be explained away with class differences. As a proportion there are significantly more poor blacks than poor whites, and poor people in general commit more felonies due to the circumstances of their upbringing.

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