[Serious] GL's Roundtable - The Real Madrid Edition

This section can stand a bit of levity!

An old guy should be permitted to troll a certain agenda focused poster every now and then! Heck, I’m just pleased Flo listened to me for once!

@freeza... you should not mention Benfica being "incredible" during that time.  You clearly didn't watch them.  They got knocked out during pool play in CL that season and finished 4th in their group no less.  Showed the level of Portuguese league then.

Lopo got fired midway through his second season.

Freeza wrote:

farfan wrote:Lopetegui failed to win a single title with Porto in his 2 seasons there. And we're talking about a historically one-sided league with 3 national competitions.

I don't think I've seen a coach get this much hype just because the (stacked) national side that he coached looked good in qualifiers and friendlies. Santini's France was one of the best national sides I've ever seen, but that didn't make him a world class coach nor did it prevent him from failing when his team had to perform in a major tournament.

Zidane was the worst Castilla manager we've had for a long time.

Sometimes some managers need the right talent and types to perform well. And it's not like Benfica weren't incredible when he was at Porto.

Why are you even comparing Porto to Castilla? Castilla is one of the worst teams around... He had a fantastic budget at Porto AND it's apparently it's a one sided competition

farfan wrote:Lopetegui failed to win a single title with Porto in his 2 seasons there. And we're talking about a historically one-sided league with 3 national competitions.

I don't think I've seen a coach get this much hype just because the (stacked) national side that he coached looked good in qualifiers and friendlies. Santini's France was one of the best national sides I've ever seen, but that didn't make him a world class coach nor did it prevent him from failing when his team had to perform in a major tournament.

Also Lopetegui was like 10th choice at Madrid before they went on to hire him eventually

He's a numpty until proven otherwise imo

sportsczy wrote:@freeza... you should not mention Benfica being "incredible" during that time.  You clearly didn't watch them.  They got knocked out during pool play in CL that season and finished 4th in their group no less.  Showed the level of Portuguese league then.

Lopo got fired midway through his second season.

When he got there they went from 61 points to 82 points. People make it sound like Porto were incredible before he arrived, and he tanked them. Most years that would've been enough to win.

@Guest7. I'm trying to make a point that a coach's performance with one club isn't always comparable to what they'd do at another.

It's hard to say Lopetegui is not good before he's had a chance.

If he'll win as much as Zidane has yet to be seen. But from the looks of this pre season we'll play much better than under Zidane's tenure. Which was the first team in over a decade I couldn't stand to watch play. It was dreadful at times, except for the knockout run in CL.

This summer could end up being one of the best things that ever happened to us. We've accomplished a cycle only bettered in Football by the "original" Madrid of the 50's and 60's. One of the main reasons behind our recent great success has been our ability to yes, reunite some of the finest footballers in the planet, but also to finally get them to play as something that resembles a team.

Still, Ronaldo's presence destabilized our team play and his timely exit might point us into a new era. In part because of market conditions (and because of our success and team context), now Perez is not willing to make opulent and unnecessary "Galactico" purchases anymore (like James for example), now we are taking into consideration what we actually need as a team and we are putting more emphasis on scouting young talent that can help us in the present and near future.

Now we have brought in a coach that has a modern yet seemingly balanced interpretation of the game and we have the team to be able to execute the complete "total" football that some of us think we can. As Lopetegui recently said when asked about whether Bale could become the best in the world, he doesn't think like that, he thinks about the team first, and if we are able to be successful with Lopetegui, this might add more to our framework of success and remind us in the future where priorities should lie.

Those who are already digging Lope's grave are generally either trolls or lack IQ imo.

Hey guys been a while, first off respects to cr for all he is done and wish him well at juve.

I think you guys are overestimating cr goals in the league, we weren't winning it with him every year, sure its easy to pass the blame off on benzema especially last season fair enough he was rubbish,but he still an elite forward and footballer, after the years of service and sacrifice he along with bale deserve a chance to show their worth with no cr around, this has been a debate for years so now it's time to put up or shut up, seems like a lot of you are getting cold feet for some reason, what the worst that gonna happen? no league ok same as usual, no cl? So what the team already achieved the impossible, so a season to figure out things going forward is not big deal unless your salty and I'm sure if Benz was sold and replaced with whomever there wouldn't be this much butthurt again getting cold feet, the team is alright as is, another cf as back up would be great still.

under jlo the team looked much better than anything mou,Carlo and zidane did, been a while since I have actually seen proper structure and a lack a cr is a big part of that just facts.

the club approach to transfers makes sense no one is out their that worth it, why spend 100+ mill on someone who is the same age as Benz that dumb, and if we do Benz is gonna leave he ain't no bench warmer or back up, he is clearly had enough of that this is season to see if he can truly be relied upon or the team splash the cash next season, can't see where the confusion is coming from.

Just wait and see.

Good to see you back Chad

Welcome back Chad, please read and comment my Benzema support thread in the General section!

He's back

Never thought I'd see the day.

I honestly didn't think the poll would be leaning a little bit towards the first option. I guess I might be wrong then.

I still firmly believe though that it's a grave mistake to go into the season solely relying on Benzema and Bale for the bulk of our goal stream.

I'm not one of those who believe that this should be a transitional year. Madrid has an amazing midfield and defense. The team is all set except for the attack. If we fail to win a major trophy, it'll be because of our lethargic attack, not because we're going through a "transitional year".

Truly ambitious and smart clubs know how to go discreetly through transitional phases without affecting their trophy haul or the overall quality of the team. In that I mean, they make sure to adequately strengthen any weakness that appears in the team by bringing immediate replacement.

What I'm seeing here with Madrid, is that they don't seem bothered with the thought that Modric doesn't have a worthy heir, same for Kroos, same for Case, same for Marcelo and pretty much every single world beater we have in the team. Those guys will eventually hang up their boots and those we have lined up to take up the torch are either too green or simply not talented enough to step in.

That's what irritates me. Madrid in 2013 made key signings and promoted strong bench players that later turned out to be vital to our success (Isco, Bale, Carvajal, Case, Nacho and even Jesé and Morata). Then they followed that the following year with the acquisition of Kroos. Look at our starting eleven now, 4 of those guys are now part of our first team and Nacho is a wild card and an extremely strong bench player (the kind you wanna have on your bench) ready to step in whenever you need him.

This is what I'm talking about. Madrid at that time (between 2013 - 2014) gave you the impression that they were constantly planning for the future and even making sure that their bench was almost as good as their starting eleven. That's a trait of a goddamn champion.

Now, I have nothing against the youngsters we have in the team right now. But I don't see any of them being talented enough to step in in two years time, and Madrid seems to be absolutely oblivious to that with their new found dormant state.

So there you have it: a combination of a very weak attack by Madrid's standards and a weakened bench have made me a little bit upset and pessimistic of what awaits Madrid in the near future.

This is pathetic but first you have to replace Zidane before replacing CR. because he was the main reason Madrid won 3 CL and made history

Zidane is not best coach, but he was the best leader and motivator. mainly because he had the fame and players respected him. After watching Zidane i think for a coach being leader and motivator is more important than being best at tactics

You lost Zidane who made you the best team ever. then you lost CR who scored your goals. and no team ever won 4 CL in a row. So its 90% certain that Madrid will win nothing in coming season. There cant be better holiday break than this.
Perez took a break and will continue his big plans next season if Lopetegui and Bale dont ruin it

"Playing much better than Zidane" is a very subjective observation. We are employing a more attractive style visually.... however, are we as effective as under ZZ's style? remains to be seen.

It's not "better" imo.

The market is not the same as it was back in 2013, or 2009. RM can't just walk into any team's negotiation room, flop it's c*ck out, and walk away with any player they want anymore.

Given what we have seen over the past 5 years or so, there has been an evolution from galactico signings to more homegrown(ish), younger prospects. Personally, I believe this is because Perez has been priced out of the market by PSG, and Man City. The 60m-100m deals of 2009-2013 for WC talents are over. You have to pay double to triple that now.

From a financial standpoint, I trust Perez more than any other club president, apart from maybe Levy. So if Perez thinks 250m-300m deals for players who would improve our side is detrimental to our club overall, then I trust him. Who am I to say I know better?

If that is the case who do we sign? Mbappe and Neymar, were never reaaaally realistic. I think we were relying on them pulling a Courtois to have any resemblance of a chance. Kane? No, as I mentioned earlier- too expensive, just signed a new contract etc. Lewa? Old, and Bayern were asking way too much. Higuain, lol, and wanted to stay in Italy. The list goes on.

Now, I'm not completely 1 sided. I think there are a few players that could have given our attack an extra dimension, and could have been affordable (relatively). I personally would have gone for one of: Griezmann (before deciding to stay at Atleti: 100m buyout clause), Icardi (before 100m buyout clause expired), or Cavani (stop-gap striker for a year or 2, but who knows how much PSG would have been asking for, or if they would have even let him go).

Overall, Perez has done the club very very well over his second reign. Therefore I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that 1) he knows what he is doing, and 2) he is doing what is best for the club's interests long term. And if we don't win anything this season, it won't be the end of the world, it is natural for a club to regress when they have had such a period of success with their best players aging/leaving.

DoC, i still believe you are being overly dramatic. I think the vast majority of us will agree with you, that we should not be dependent on Benzema, Bale to lead us. But as described many times in this thread, there simply are not a lot of viable alternatives. ALL of us are screaming for another / better CF.

But you talk about how big, successful clubs should transition. First off, there has never been a club as successful as Real Madrid and secondly, other than finding that “scorer” we desperately need, the club actually has done quite well in transitioning. It remains to be seen how good Lopetequi and his tactics, yet alone the youth talent we have. What we are missing this year and likely next is that “scorer”

I dont think it's so much about the money, because we have it. It's more about who is available. I am pretty sure we could have dropped 250 mil on signing Higuain, but would that have made sense? no.

We signed Galacticos for 2 reasons:
1) Perez took over the club when we were in very bad shape financially and he had a vision to sign star players to increase commercial revenues and change things at the club
2) Perez since he was a kid was in love with the idea of Madrid signing Di Stefano. He saw it as a model he wanted to replicate to make madrid a dominant club again.

You talk about not signing galacticos in the past 5 years but did we have any need to do so?
1) we are in amazing shape financially
2) in the past 5 years we have won a whooping 4 CLs and have turned into the most dominant club this era.

Conclusion: We had the best player ever or so, and world class players everywhere. There was 0 need to sign "galacticos".

It's only "NOW" that you can argue we are on path to sign another galactico. But this is the type of signing that involves courtship and planning. We did not sign CR in one summer, it took time for even Fergie to consider his release. So until we do that, we are going to trust and empower the several world class players we have and our youngsters as well.

Went on Instagram the other day and on one of the Madrid fan pages everyone was crying and saying things like how we replace "50 goals a season" or "how we gonna win CL he won it for us 4 times" and bla bla bla...

well Ronaldo is a very good player,great goalscorer and a brilliant opportunist on the pitch. but Madrid won 3 CL's back to back because of 3 things:

1- Midfield
2- Zidane's magical luck
3- Other players efforts including Ronaldo

You look at our squad and it oozes quality. a great GK, best lb in the world, Best CB in the world, Best midfielders in the World, and two world class attacking players in Benzema and Bale.

So saying we won what we won Because of Ronaldo is absurd. as a poacher, he was a part of it.

there were games we won and he scored the goals. but there were games he was a ghost and we still won. including 3 out of our 4 CL finals in last 5 years. Against Atletico, again Atletico and Liverpool.

And again Numbers are overrated these days. If you Give all the FK's and PK's to Bale or any other player he could have like 15 more goals a season and on the other hand there will be 15 goals less from Ronaldo.

Other players numbers will improve when the focal point isn't Ronaldo anymore.

Anyways i'm sure we will be fine. we may not win the fourth CL title in a row cuz even thinking about that is crazy but we will do fine specially in Liga.

Well, at least someone from Marca agrees with me.
[Link]
And yes, I'm embarrassed too.

i don't think the concern is just about talent; well, talent is part of it, its also about depth, competition is good for the squad, when people get injured or start scrubbing and wetting the bed, ample competition is necessary. unless we are going to be a more cohesive defensive unit, i'm sorry you cannot just downplay the extra 40 plus goals we previously had. scoring is probably the toughest part of the job

we either become stronger defensively and become a side that can hold teams down to only one goal, OR, i would need bale and benzema to provide us at least 28 goals each, in the league alone. 35 plus in all competitions

as far as signings, i thought flo had something up his sleeves but i was wrong, he doesn't (i didn't expect anyone from psg, psg aren't some scrub side who are desperate for money). you can't blame flo, in this kind of situation its up to the coach to also have his list of potential targets for the president to sign- especially if you're a coach who prefers particular systems, then you should have a list of potentials who suit what you like and not expect to have that dictated to you

and its too premature to use friendlies to compare lopetegui to his predecessor at this stage. come on people, the team hasn't played a serious game yet. real business starts on sunday. i just hope these guys don't waste all their fitness and energy on atleti this wednesday. the getafe game imo is more important

tito...  the manager has very little say in transfers at Madrid.  You know that.  Mourinho put it in his contract; so he was the only one.  They at least asked for Zidane's opinion... but didn't listen to him much lol (again, the big reason he left if not the only reason).

It's Madrid.  Flo and the directors choose the players.  Manager makes due.

Happens at other clubs too. Bayern, Barca, PSG, Juve and Chelsea most notably. Managers give input but they have no power.

Zidane left because Flo told him the he won't renew CR. That at least is clear as day

Reminder guys (looking at you @Futbol_Bill).....this is a serious thread so no trolling.

On topic - Madrid are entering a major transitional phase. I see nothing particularly special, strange or concerning about that. Every club enters one, especially after an era of such unprecedented success experienced under Zidane and with CR in their team.

When Totti retired, there was genuine uncertainty as to what and how we'd do without him. Despite his legendary and iconic status, we did just fine and made history in the CL. CR is arguably the greatest player to ever play for Madrid at this point, but he is still just 1 player and no player can be bigger than the club just as no coach is bigger than the club. Madrid are something Roma clearly aren't: Elite. Clubs at this level are far more used to these transitional phases than others.

I can't really say how I would view this if I was a Madrid fan as I have never supported an elite club before. These fans are used to winning anything and everything every season. I'm used to to merely Roma winning matches it's not expected to win. The expectations are far too different for answer to be accurate here. I do think those expectations need to be reset though with Lopetegui coming in. Honeymoon periods do not last long at teams like Madrid, but he should get one nonetheless.

Overall, I think Madrid will be fine, just as they've always been over the last 60 years or so.

Just dropping in to say that this is one of the best threads in GS in a long time. Great discussion.

And what the hell was I trolling About ?

Edit: so looking back a week or so, I see I took a poke at Sports re Zidane. Is that really trolling, it certainly was on topic!

Agreed RG. A great discussion indeed. I like the concept of a serious tag.

@Futbol_bill - I'm not going to derail this thread going back and forth with you. PM me if you have more to say.