Time to pounce on Mbappe

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Post by Thimmy on Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 am

No one's complaining about the areas in where we succeeded. Some had expected Flo to be more proactive about the inevitable end of a cycle, that you're referring to. You seem to do everything in your power to argue that Flo hasn't put a foot wrong in his preparations, but this wasn't merely a trophyless season. We're now stuck in a situation where we have to spend a lot more money than we would've had to with better preparation, and there are now less established, top players available. We're in need of an almost complete overhaul. It's not as bad as that of United, but it's an overhaul nonetheless, and we have higher standards than them.

No matter how you twist and turn your rhetorics, Real Madrid are now facing a long-term rebuild again. You'd think Flo had learnt from trial and error at this point, you'd think Real Madrid as an institution would have learnt from the things that went wrong and the things that went right with the past generation of players - but it seems he likes both trials and errors. He hasn't stuck to the things that he did right, he tried something new, and now we're facing the consequences of that - I wouldn't boil it all down to one trophyless season. We're back to scratch. We even have Bale as the spiritual successor to Robben, minus the talent.

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Post by Doc on Mon May 27, 2019 2:00 am

@Mr Nick09 wrote:the gambles were all right when we had a made team with world class players all over the place. but the young ones did not take the step we were expecting, biggest flops of them is Asensio, what a dud.

so now you sign big name players again.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts when I'm not being over dramatic. They had a strategy they thought would work out and it blew up in their faces in the grandest of fashions, it happens. Maybe they'll learn from this and not go full potential buying and mix and match. Maybe they won't, maybe Lucas is gonna be our starting RW next season.

@titosantill wrote:completely hypothetical scenario, and mind you i don't think this is realistic but since we are on the mbappe thread i guess i wanted peoples' opinion. if psg said (which they most likely won't, at least not this year) , we'll listen to offers for mbappe starting at 300 million, would anyone here be opposed to madrid throwing our hat in the race? and how far would you want us to go?

second part of the question hints at, if they say they'll listen to offers at 300 mill, it means other clubs can join in the race to sign the kid upwards of that amount, to create some sort of bidding war. anyway, my take, yes make the move, and go as far as possible. which would mean negotiating something preferable with mbappe's people as well. what do you guys think?

For the 1st part of the question about I being opposed to us spending 300 million on Mbappe: yes, yes I would. But when he comes and becomes an absolute success, I'll pretend the 300 million was "cheap" or some shit. But yeah I would actually feel it's wrong to spend so much on one guy but that's just me.

For the 2nd part, if Madrid has 300 mil to spend on 1 guy, pretty sure clubs like City and Utd would have that level of buying power. However, I don't think either would spend that much on one player, don't see it tbh. But if they do, Madrid would have to definitely pay him Sanchez level salary as both would be offering him huge wages.

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Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon May 27, 2019 2:00 am

@Thimmy wrote:No one's complaining about the areas in where we succeeded. Some had expected Flo to be more proactive about the inevitable end of a cycle, that you're referring to.


this part in red i have no problem arguing that with you, because at the end of the day, the merits of a strategy, again, is based on results. The club made a gamble to rely on your players to ensure the post CR transition, and it was miscalculated because those youngsters flopped and cowered away like Asensio. Specially when the older core stopped performing.

But saying this, very much suggests that there was a method in how we signed young players in the past couple of years. We had a starting eleven with 8 or 9 genuine world elite players; they were european champions; and they thought the best way to back them up was signing very talented youngsters. simple as that.

i am not arguing that he did not put a wrong foot, i am saying instead that they adopted a strategy, which did not bear the results we wanted post CR; it does not mean they have become incompetent, because, of this hiring policy, there are players we are genuinely excited about like Vinicus, like Brahim, Valverde, Rodrygo leaves, etc...

Also, planning for a team that is coming from an historically great CL run is uncharted territory, there is no manual for such a situation. What do you do with your starters who won you 4 CLs, you throw them away? you tell them Pogba is now going to come in the club, make more money than them, and you put them on the bench? you guys make it sound like it's so easy to just turn over the team and create another winning cycle while you peacefully transition away from a generation of winners. it's not.

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Post by Perucho21 on Mon May 27, 2019 5:30 am

@The Demon of Carthage wrote:
@Mr Nick09 wrote:the only result that matters is our trophy case and we justified all of our sporting decisions on the pitch winning 4 Champions league, it's the only truth that matters.

It was an excellent plan.
This is wrong on so many levels. We won those CLs thanks to players who were bought before the policy changed.

This is the starting lineup of the CL final against Juventus:
Time to pounce on Mbappe - Page 5 14963275483012

Navas: decent (signed in 2014)
Carvajal: elite (homegrown talent)
Varane: elite (signed in 2011)
Ramos: elite (signed in 2005)
Marcelo: elite (signed in 2007)
Modric: elite (signed in 2012)
Kroos: elite (signed in 2014)
Case: decent (signed in 2013)
Ronaldo: elite (signed in 2009)
Isco: decent (signed in 2013)
Benzema: decent (signed in 2009)

All these players were signed before Madrid's change in policy, and they rode on their backs until they declined and became no longer elite without thinking about replacing them.

The success you're referring to was brought by those players, not the players we have been buying in recent years.


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Post by futbol_bill on Mon May 27, 2019 9:15 am

I’m in agreement with Nick on this one!

Sure we are all disappointed in Flo for this year’s results and I’m sure Flo is likely as well. We all didn’t like the no changes in the previous couple of years, but the end result of giving the team stability corrected us that it was the wiser decision, and bear in mind that decision was supported by Zidane, be it that he likely wanted Bale gone.

I think we can all agree including Nick that we would have preferred some more positive activity last summer, however Flo’s bet was that not only Asensio and Isco would become solid starters, that Bale and Benzema would step up their game to match their salaries and so called star status and that rest of same old would carry on the same! Where I’m not in agreement with Nick is the failure to step it up does not lie solely with Asensio and other kids! Bale obviously tops the list for me and then there are all the veteran starters who flopped big time, primarily Marcelo and Modric, but also poorer efforts possibly from WC efforts in Casemiro and Varane (don’t get excited! at beginning of season) plus Kroos, who I have no explanation why he fell off. Then there is the mysterious case of Isco. As to the comment about rest of kids, I don’t agree. I think all of them gave positive contributions, I think the issues are far more related to starters than the weaknesses in quality of bench. It is indeed the mistake Flo made of not doing more to at least to strengthening the bench, plus obviously not replacing Bale.

Now even if he had done those things, we still likely would have ended up without trophies. Thimmy says we are back to square one and that I will agree with, but only because it takes time to build a team. Even if they replace the majority, it still takes time to build a cohesive team. As I have said several times, the rebuild will not be done in a single year.

DoC started this debate with his anti Perez drama saying Perez won’t spend the money to acquire someone like Mbappe. There is nothing I can see that suggest he won’t do what is necessary to rebuild this team. I feel there is a lot of over reaction on what should and can be done to rebuild this ship!
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Post by Thimmy on Mon May 27, 2019 10:55 am

@Mr Nick09 wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:No one's complaining about the areas in where we succeeded. Some had expected Flo to be more proactive about the inevitable end of a cycle, that you're referring to.


this part in red i have no problem arguing that with you, because at the end of the day, the merits of a strategy, again, is based on results. The club made a gamble to rely on your players to ensure the post CR transition, and it was miscalculated because those youngsters flopped and cowered away like Asensio. Specially when the older core stopped performing.

That was, quite honestly, an idiotic gamble. Even if Asensio had stepped up his level from the season before, he was simply never that type of player, and the left wing is clearly not his position. Lots of red flags there. We gambled on a bunch of dutch talent during the early 00s, then we moved on to Spanish talent during the early years of Flo's tenure. Did any of them pay off? We should gamble on young prospects, to some extent, but we should also learn from our mistakes. Young talent is insanely expensive nowadays, so our scouts have to pick carefully. Even with careful picking and choosing, and I don't think prioritizing prospects over established names is a reliable plan. Either way, the likes of Asensio was never going to fill a fraction of CR's shadow. How did he convince anyone that he could play at LW as well as an actual LW, let alone CR7? hmm

I think a club of our standard should phase out veteran players naturally, like the very elite clubs traditionally do. We've already acquired a backup for Ramos, and I have no clue whether or not Militao is the real deal, but at least we have a plan B for our aging captain. City have been doing everything right, from phasing out older players to acquiring top talent and squad depth. They may not have won the Champions League yet, but their time will surely come with such impeccable club management. If they didn't learn from past mistakes, Pep is surely rectifying them.


But saying this, very much suggests that there was a method in how we signed young players in the past couple of years. We had a starting eleven with 8 or 9 genuine world elite players; they were european champions; and they thought the best way to back them up was signing very talented youngsters. simple as that.

Talented, Spanish youngsters, specifically. I'm not sure who does the scouting at our club, but aside from the obvious, nation-loved, top prospects like, Spain's Isco and Brazil's Vinicius, they've really not impressed anyone in picking and choosing from the less obvious hypejobs in the Spanish talent pool. In a sense, it might've been a good thing that we lost out on Neymar to Barcelona, because it seems Flo has realized that when the entire football nation of Brazil hype up one or two players, there's a good chance that at least one of them are the real deal.

We always have to keep the quota for Spanish players in mind, and that's a seperate discussion, but in terms of preparing for the now, we could've looked towards Germany and France for those young, backup players. You know, like Tottenham and Liverpool have been doing. I'd argue that Son Heung Min was very much a safe talent to bet on, already when he was at Leverkusen. Fast, technically adept, two-footed, excellent shot. You don't need a professional scout to spot talents like that. These days, Pochettino seems to get the credit for "turning him into" the player he is today. The likes of Kai Havertz and Julian Brandt look like similarly, safe talents to bet on. At some point in time, I wish we would've looked for players with their level of talent, rather than the middle drawer ones that are hyped up by the Spanish media.

I really do like certain things about Ceballos, Llorente.. and even Isco and Asensio, but none of them were ever going to serve as adequate replacements for our veteran players. I don't see any other explanation than us waiting for the inevitable moment when our 30+ ones started kicking the bucket one after the other, and that's not my idea of good preparation.

i am not arguing that he did not put a wrong foot, i am saying instead that they adopted a strategy, which did not bear the results we wanted post CR; it does not mean they have become incompetent, because, of this hiring policy, there are players we are genuinely excited about like Vinicus, like Brahim, Valverde, Rodrygo leaves, etc...

Brahim has surprised me, but he's far from proven at this point in time. I only recently learned that Vinicius and Rodrygo, like Neymar, are the top, top talents of Brazil, and so I suppose those two aren't as much of a gamble as initially assumed. I thought they were merely hyped up names in a pool of Brazilian talents, similarly to the Spanish prospects we've traditionally been signing. That said, I definitely think the most sensible thing to do when losing CR, would've been to find and adequately experienced replacement. I don't know how or who found it a sensible option to simply count on Asensio for that task.

Also, planning for a team that is coming from an historically great CL run is uncharted territory, there is no manual for such a situation. What do you do with your starters who won you 4 CLs, you throw them away? you tell them Pogba is now going to come in the club, make more money than them, and you put them on the bench? you guys make it sound like it's so easy to just turn over the team and create another winning cycle while you peacefully transition away from a generation of winners. it's not.


I'm sleep deprived and tired of writing. You already know my feelings on Pogba. If we are going to get a player like him anyway, we better put together a winning team around him first, because over time, he'll drag us down if we don't. Happy to see Barcelona lose the copa to Valencia, after all their boasting about winning the double this season.

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Post by Unique on Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 am

@Thimmy wrote:
@Mr Nick09 wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:No one's complaining about the areas in where we succeeded. Some had expected Flo to be more proactive about the inevitable end of a cycle, that you're referring to.


this part in red i have no problem arguing that with you, because at the end of the day, the merits of a strategy, again, is based on results. The club made a gamble to rely on your players to ensure the post CR transition, and it was miscalculated because those youngsters flopped and cowered away like Asensio. Specially when the older core stopped performing.

That was, quite honestly, an idiotic gamble. Even if Asensio had stepped up his level from the season before, he was simply never that type of player, and the left wing is clearly not his position. Lots of red flags there. We gambled on a bunch of dutch talent during the early 00s, then we moved on to Spanish talent during the early years of Flo's tenure. Did any of them pay off? We should gamble on young prospects, to some extent, but we should also learn from our mistakes. Young talent is insanely expensive nowadays, so our scouts have to pick carefully. Even with careful picking and choosing, and I don't think prioritizing prospects over established names is a reliable plan. Either way, the likes of Asensio was never going to fill a fraction of CR's shadow. How did he convince anyone that he could play at LW as well as an actual LW, let alone CR7? hmm

I think a club of our standard should phase out veteran players naturally, like the very elite clubs traditionally do. We've already acquired a backup for Ramos, and I have no clue whether or not Militao is the real deal, but at least we have a plan B for our aging captain. City have been doing everything right, from phasing out older players to acquiring top talent and squad depth. They may not have won the Champions League yet, but their time will surely come with such impeccable club management. If they didn't learn from past mistakes, Pep is surely rectifying them.


But saying this, very much suggests that there was a method in how we signed young players in the past couple of years. We had a starting eleven with 8 or 9 genuine world elite players; they were european champions; and they thought the best way to back them up was signing very talented youngsters. simple as that.

Talented, Spanish youngsters, specifically. I'm not sure who does the scouting at our club, but aside from the obvious, nation-loved, top prospects like, Spain's Isco and Brazil's Vinicius, they've really not impressed anyone in picking and choosing from the less obvious hypejobs in the Spanish talent pool. In a sense, it might've been a good thing that we lost out on Neymar to Barcelona, because it seems Flo has realized that when the entire football nation of Brazil hype up one or two players, there's a good chance that at least one of them are the real deal.

We always have to keep the quota for Spanish players in mind, and that's a seperate discussion, but in terms of preparing for the now, we could've looked towards Germany and France for those young, backup players. You know, like Tottenham and Liverpool have been doing. I'd argue that Son Heung Min was very much a safe talent to bet on, already when he was at Leverkusen. Fast, technically adept, two-footed, excellent shot. You don't need a professional scout to spot talents like that. These days, Pochettino seems to get the credit for "turning him into" the player he is today. The likes of Kai Havertz and Julian Brandt look like similarly, safe talents to bet on. At some point in time, I wish we would've looked for players with their level of talent, rather than the middle drawer ones that are hyped up by the Spanish media.

I really do like certain things about Ceballos, Llorente.. and even Isco and Asensio, but none of them were ever going to serve as adequate replacements for our veteran players. I don't see any other explanation than us waiting for the inevitable moment when our 30+ ones started kicking the bucket one after the other, and that's not my idea of good preparation.

i am not arguing that he did not put a wrong foot, i am saying instead that they adopted a strategy, which did not bear the results we wanted post CR; it does not mean they have become incompetent, because, of this hiring policy, there are players we are genuinely excited about like Vinicus, like Brahim, Valverde, Rodrygo leaves, etc...

Brahim has surprised me, but he's far from proven at this point in time. I only recently learned that Vinicius and Rodrygo, like Neymar, are the top, top talents of Brazil, and so I suppose those two aren't as much of a gamble as initially assumed. I thought they were merely hyped up names in a pool of Brazilian talents, similarly to the Spanish prospects we've traditionally been signing. That said, I definitely think the most sensible thing to do when losing CR, would've been to find and adequately experienced replacement. I don't know how or who found it a sensible option to simply count on Asensio for that task.

Also, planning for a team that is coming from an historically great CL run is uncharted territory, there is no manual for such a situation. What do you do with your starters who won you 4 CLs, you throw them away? you tell them Pogba is now going to come in the club, make more money than them, and you put them on the bench? you guys make it sound like it's so easy to just turn over the team and create another winning cycle while you peacefully transition away from a generation of winners. it's not.


I'm sleep deprived and tired of writing. You already know my feelings on Pogba. If we are going to get a player like him anyway, we better put together a winning team around him first, because over time, he'll drag us down if we don't. Happy to see Barcelona lose the copa to Valencia, after all their boasting about winning the double treble this season.


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Post by Unique on Mon May 27, 2019 11:16 am

@Thimmy wrote:
@Mr Nick09 wrote:
@Thimmy wrote:No one's complaining about the areas in where we succeeded. Some had expected Flo to be more proactive about the inevitable end of a cycle, that you're referring to.


this part in red i have no problem arguing that with you, because at the end of the day, the merits of a strategy, again, is based on results. The club made a gamble to rely on your players to ensure the post CR transition, and it was miscalculated because those youngsters flopped and cowered away like Asensio. Specially when the older core stopped performing.

That was, quite honestly, an idiotic gamble. Even if Asensio had stepped up his level from the season before, he was simply never that type of player, and the left wing is clearly not his position. Lots of red flags there. We gambled on a bunch of dutch talent during the early 00s, then we moved on to Spanish talent during the early years of Flo's tenure. Did any of them pay off? We should gamble on young prospects, to some extent, but we should also learn from our mistakes. Young talent is insanely expensive nowadays, so our scouts have to pick carefully. Even with careful picking and choosing, and I don't think prioritizing prospects over established names is a reliable plan. Either way, the likes of Asensio was never going to fill a fraction of CR's shadow. How did he convince anyone that he could play at LW as well as an actual LW, let alone CR7? hmm

I think a club of our standard should phase out veteran players naturally, like the very elite clubs traditionally do. We've already acquired a backup for Ramos, and I have no clue whether or not Militao is the real deal, but at least we have a plan B for our aging captain. City have been doing everything right, from phasing out older players to acquiring top talent and squad depth. They may not have won the Champions League yet, but their time will surely come with such impeccable club management. If they didn't learn from past mistakes, Pep is surely rectifying them.


But saying this, very much suggests that there was a method in how we signed young players in the past couple of years. We had a starting eleven with 8 or 9 genuine world elite players; they were european champions; and they thought the best way to back them up was signing very talented youngsters. simple as that.

Talented, Spanish youngsters, specifically. I'm not sure who does the scouting at our club, but aside from the obvious, nation-loved, top prospects like, Spain's Isco and Brazil's Vinicius, they've really not impressed anyone in picking and choosing from the less obvious hypejobs in the Spanish talent pool. In a sense, it might've been a good thing that we lost out on Neymar to Barcelona, because it seems Flo has realized that when the entire football nation of Brazil hype up one or two players, there's a good chance that at least one of them are the real deal.

We always have to keep the quota for Spanish players in mind, and that's a seperate discussion, but in terms of preparing for the now, we could've looked towards Germany and France for those young, backup players. You know, like Tottenham and Liverpool have been doing. I'd argue that Son Heung Min was very much a safe talent to bet on, already when he was at Leverkusen. Fast, technically adept, two-footed, excellent shot. You don't need a professional scout to spot talents like that. These days, Pochettino seems to get the credit for "turning him into" the player he is today. The likes of Kai Havertz and Julian Brandt look like similarly, safe talents to bet on. At some point in time, I wish we would've looked for players with their level of talent, rather than the middle drawer ones that are hyped up by the Spanish media.

I really do like certain things about Ceballos, Llorente.. and even Isco and Asensio, but none of them were ever going to serve as adequate replacements for our veteran players. I don't see any other explanation than us waiting for the inevitable moment when our 30+ ones started kicking the bucket one after the other, and that's not my idea of good preparation.

i am not arguing that he did not put a wrong foot, i am saying instead that they adopted a strategy, which did not bear the results we wanted post CR; it does not mean they have become incompetent, because, of this hiring policy, there are players we are genuinely excited about like Vinicus, like Brahim, Valverde, Rodrygo leaves, etc...

Brahim has surprised me, but he's far from proven at this point in time. I only recently learned that Vinicius and Rodrygo, like Neymar, are the top, top talents of Brazil, and so I suppose those two aren't as much of a gamble as initially assumed. I thought they were merely hyped up names in a pool of Brazilian talents, similarly to the Spanish prospects we've traditionally been signing. That said, I definitely think the most sensible thing to do when losing CR, would've been to find and adequately experienced replacement. I don't know how or who found it a sensible option to simply count on Asensio for that task.

Also, planning for a team that is coming from an historically great CL run is uncharted territory, there is no manual for such a situation. What do you do with your starters who won you 4 CLs, you throw them away? you tell them Pogba is now going to come in the club, make more money than them, and you put them on the bench? you guys make it sound like it's so easy to just turn over the team and create another winning cycle while you peacefully transition away from a generation of winners. it's not.


I'm sleep deprived and tired of writing. You already know my feelings on Pogba. If we are going to get a player like him anyway, we better put together a winning team around him first, because over time, he'll drag us down if we don't. Happy to see Barcelona lose the copa to Valencia, after all their boasting about winning the double treble this season.


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Post by Mr Nick09 on Mon May 27, 2019 12:06 pm

mod request: please remove the double post

@Thimmy,
ON THE "GAMBLE": the gamble is only idiotic because it did not work. simple as that. You take Asensio for example, there was a big enough sample size of him playing with us and performing + an unanimous hype around him that it was worth taking. You look at Bale dropping a match winning performance in CL finals, and it's normal to think he can deliver for you. Then you get in football rooms with people who "know" football, your prospective coach (Lope at the time) and they sell you on turning Asension, Isco into stars, etc... They had certainly, all shown enough that you can build a team with them in mind to succeed, CR or no CR. you see Ajax, and they are not build with stars are they? just good football, and everyone chipping in. Again, any decision you make is a gamble, this one was calculated and as long as i can understand how you come to make such decision, im ok. Result matters at the end of the day, things went wrong and so we are here.

THE BACK UPs: keep in mind we have been signing back up players for all our starters: Vallejo, Ceballos, isco, Asensio, Kovacic, etc... hoping for a natural transition, but it did not quite work out. I said earlier there is no blueprint for what we were dealing with and it's true. You mention City, but they have been nowhere near the run we had, again, unprecedented historically. You are dealing with guys who are legends, who have delivered for you over and over, and over; it's just not that simple to bench them and to transition them out. City were simply never in our situation so i fail to see how they are a relevant model for us, they are not.

SPANISH CORE: Look we are a spanish team, we will always have a spanish core and it is what it is. Not to mention the laws about homegrown talent, and the recent success of spanish football, and the level of their grassroot formation system, it's only normal that a club like madrid look for spanish talents who can star for the 1st team and go on to represent the national team. If Madrid were based out of Portugal, we would do the same thing with Portuguese talents.

Look i dont like these "hindsight" arguments about guys like Son, who took years to develop and is only now a top talent. he was super inconsistent before, and frankly, nothing special about him. You mention Havertz and Brandt, but you bring them in madrid, and it's just another gamble. If they flop, you would be praising some other kids thriving somewhere else. And by the way you say Brandt and havertz but sports is gonna tell you that we made a mistake not to sign Fekir or Ndombele earlier; Bill will say Soler and Rodrigo; Chad will jump in, insult Spanish players and name his favorites; etc...

Everytime we sign a young player, there is 100 alternatives that we could have gone for, ultimately, we have a decision making process in madrid which will select X or Y, and then we try to make the best of the situation. there is no club in the world which nails all their signings at 100% success rate. It's not possible, but i would like to think we are doing alright. It's definitely not mediocre; mediocre to me is what barca are doing, spending close to 250 millions on Dembele and Coutinho, god forbid we had made those transfers, you guys would be marching to madrid to depose Perez; but barca have fucking equalizer messi, so that's their silver lining...

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