Re: Euro 2020 - SF : Spain - Italy

by futbol_bill Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:47 pm

Well, I’m over the disappointment. It was once again Spain was the better team overall but couldn’t find the back of the net. I still say this team has been severely criticized and underrated, particularly on this forum. As to a loss in penalties, I have always said penalties is a crap shoot, you never know who will win.

I have no bitterness to Italy, they have been great all tournament and I believe will win the cup.

There is once again severe criticism of Morata. He does have his inconsistencies, but he works hard and makes lots if contributions. Quite frankly, he is the best we have. Olmo was excellent yesterday, but we can’t say the same about the other games. He’s very young and will get better. The same can be said about the other forwards. A comment about Sarabia to those asking why he didn’t play yesterday. He was injured!

Pedri had a breakthru tournament. He will be core to us for the foreseeable future. Busquets was the leader out there, as was Alba. Koke also played very well. Fabian, Rodri and Thiago offered relief from the bench. Speaking about Thiago, he has lost something! I think he is heavier now, which may be a factor. @Hans constantly beefing that he is our best and should be a set starter is very misguided. Either Hans didn’t watch him for the past year or he is just blowing smoke! Koke (his opposition) definitely is the better of the two.

The fullbacks were great. All 4 of them made huge contributions and Llorente has amazing versatility. Being a Madrid fan, it’s such a shame (for us) that Zidane didn’t recognize the potential this guy had!

Simon was great. Clearly better than DeGea (of late) and Kepa. He did make two big mistakes, one yesterday, but nothing a bit of concentration can’t solve.

My disappointment is with the CBs. Both Pau and Laporte played well, but each have some issues. I started off this tournament accepting Enrique’s selections, but on hindsight, i think he should have taken Ramos as a 4th CB., giving him time to prove he can contribute. There were definite moments in this tournament where his leadership, header ability plus penalties capability would have helped. I wasn’t at all impressed with Eric Garcia and Diego Llorente wasn’t even given a single minute! Nacho would have been a much better option. With the WC just a year away and with Ramos now with a top club, I suspect Ramos will be back with seleccion. All in all, I went into this tournament hopeful but highly doubtful. Now I’m excited for our chances in the WC.

by neuro11 Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:06 pm

Spain made me eat my words. What a performance by them. In the first 25 min, they did not allow Italy to come out of their box ( or Italy wanted to sit in the box and frustrate Spain!). at times it showed Spain had 180 passes completed vs 50 of Italy. But the finishing was really poor. I was wondering what would have happened if Morata started the game as Spain created the best chances in the first half, most of which were sent to the sky by Olmo and Oyarzabal.

the dance of Unai Simon at shootout is so annoying. Swiss fell into the his dancing trap but Italy was well prepared for this.

by Arquitecto Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:49 pm

Adama is good, at best but he has yet to prove a thing on top level. Has shown to be out of his depth for the national team and has one infuriating thing. Will literally change the balance of the team by himself where he will force to use his pace and it ends up in dead ends.

On paper its the right choice but doubt once again, that he would have made the needed difference.

And Im very happy with the performance last night. Our best performance of the tournament was ironically against the best team of the tournament.

Enrique's removal of a reference point in Morata was a stoke of genius since he saw what Chiellini-Bonucci did to Lukaku in making him invisible.

Hard loss but the future is no doubt bright.

by Arquitecto Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:53 pm

McLewis wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:It has nothing to do with it as Ive nothing against him being split-nationality and would find a way to degrade his abilities oriundo or not so excuse me for that. Toloi just seems to possess no intelligence in how to defend an oncoming player as even regular situations he is blocking them as if its a needed last ditch cynical foul.

Italy historically have had great Oriundi for them from Altafini to Sivori to Camoranesi and bless them for their service.

I will admit I was surprised to see Gianluca Mancini left at home in favor of Toloi, but then again, Atalanta did have a better defensive record than Roma this past season. How much either had to do with Toloi or Mancini is debatable. Do you think Mancini would've fared better?

rincon wrote:Toloi is a good player. Good defender and versatile. Didn't do anything of note last night, it happens, but he is good.

I frankly regret that we let him go. He could've been quite useful for us. That said and, Roma bias aside, I think Mancini would've done better for Italy personally.

Its a very good question you pose and easy to answer but the truth is I really dont know. If I had to pick I would say no.

Mancini is miles ahead of Toloi who has peaked but he is not full back by trade and likely would have made the same mistake as Toloi who was just plain lazy in his anticipation.

So its very easy to say X alternative would have been better than Y but very likely not.

by Robespierre Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:14 pm

El Gunner wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
Warrior wrote:I explained it during first half. Either got lost in the posts or nobody cared

Insigne and Berardi will play their usual game and cut inside. Chiesa as CF/false 9 will help the midfield and is more reliable to carry the ball (or quick combinations) even has more energy and pace to put pressure

I'm sorry Immobidone and Belotti are not starters in my team for a Euro final. Raspadori no experience so forget it. And it's not like you miss big time finishing leaving these guys on the bench.

Sorry but idk why the part in bold killed me

my guy just wants to be quote-replied to that's all

@Robes, Martinelli is Brazilian

Yes , I know it, but he ' s eligible , he has Italian passport because of his father's relatives
Anyway I think It Is difficult, FIGC tends to naturalize just those players who have an Italian experience (syntom of a country so conservative I should say sadly, but this is another story ), I mean Thiago Motta, Toloi , Emerson have played in Italy

Jorginho is separate chapter

This guy has lived in Italy since he is 15, high school here , 10+ years lived here , he's even an Italian football product ( Hellas Verona youth)... Ffs not even the most idiot pureblood can think that Jorginho Is not (also) Italian Laughing

Raphinha by Leeds Is eligible too, but IMO there Is same discourse for him .
FIGC acts differently from Rugby federation

futbol_bill wrote:Well, I’m over the disappointment. It was once again Spain was the better team overall but couldn’t find the back of the net. I still say this team has been severely criticized and underrated, particularly on this forum. As to a loss in penalties, I have always said penalties is a crap shoot, you never know who will win.

I have no bitterness to Italy, they have been great all tournament and I believe will win the cup.

There is once again severe criticism of Morata. He does have his inconsistencies, but he works hard and makes lots if contributions. Quite frankly, he is the best we have. Olmo was excellent yesterday, but we can’t say the same about the other games. He’s very young and will get better. The same can be said about the other forwards. A comment about Sarabia to those asking why he didn’t play yesterday. He was injured!

Pedri had a breakthru tournament. He will be core to us for the foreseeable future. Busquets was the leader out there, as was Alba. Koke also played very well. Fabian, Rodri and Thiago offered relief from the bench. Speaking about Thiago, he has lost something! I think he is heavier now, which may be a factor. @Hans constantly beefing that he is our best and should be a set starter is very misguided. Either Hans didn’t watch him for the past year or he is just blowing smoke! Koke (his opposition) definitely is the better of the two.

The fullbacks were great. All 4 of them made huge contributions and Llorente has amazing versatility. Being a Madrid fan, it’s such a shame (for us) that Zidane didn’t recognize the potential this guy had!

Simon was great. Clearly better than DeGea (of late) and Kepa. He did make two big mistakes, one yesterday, but nothing a bit of concentration can’t solve.

My disappointment is with the CBs. Both Pau and Laporte played well, but each have some issues. I started off this tournament accepting Enrique’s selections, but on hindsight, i think he should have taken Ramos as a 4th CB., giving him time to prove he can contribute. There were definite moments in this tournament where his leadership, header ability plus penalties capability would have helped. I wasn’t at all impressed with Eric Garcia and Diego Llorente wasn’t even given a single minute! Nacho would have been a much better option. With the WC just a year away and with Ramos now with a top club, I suspect Ramos will be back with seleccion. All in all, I went into this tournament hopeful but highly doubtful. Now I’m excited for our chances in the WC.

I underrated too, probably because it was the first Spain with no Real Madrid players . But I was wrong

Great post, honestly it's always good to play against Spain, epic games and I like this Mediterranean derby

We are distant as football philosophy ( from a historic view, Italy Is changing now , but well, Italy usually means defence, Spain possession . Yeah, even Yesterday) but I feel the closest cultural affinity compared with others Europeann countries . Well even language, Spanish Is much easier than French for an Italian Very Happy

:) , as said also by Arquitecto

Good luck for the future

by Arquitecto Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:23 pm

Thiago Alcantara has it the best.

Born in Italia (Bari)
Brazilian descent
Raised in Spain.

He had three choices.

And since he is never being played for Spain I wish he could make the transition to Italy as we all know Mancini would make him his main man.

by S Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:45 pm

Álvaro Morata has now scored more goals for Spain at the European Championships (6) than any other player in their history
— Proppenschieter (@JuvecausesAIDs) July 6, 2021

GOAT

100x the striker Immobidone will ever be

And fuck those Italian 'fans' sending death threats to his wife

Usually I'm indifferent towards Spain but it's the first time I sympathize with them. But in the end I think the better team went through.

Chiesa has taken a massive leap since joining us. Absolute superstar.

Happy to see Juventus players having a big impact in this tournament Proud

by Casciavit Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:56 pm

Pedri is the next Iniesta. Someone make a hype thread ffs.

Can't believe he plays with that level of maturity at 18!

by Casciavit Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:08 pm

In terms of construction and build up in the first two thirds Spain is so impressive. They throw it all away in the final third though.

Their attackers lack individual quality and their striker lacks the mentality for the big stages. Though like Dani said they do have some talents coming up. Fati and Gill on the wings and that changes the dynamic. Fati is a goal scoring inside winger and Gill is a pacy dribbler.

Ferran seems to have great goal scoring instinct so I wouldn't be surprised if he's moved to a #9 as well. Those three completely change the dynamic of Spain's forward line.

by rincon Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:44 pm

McLewis wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:It has nothing to do with it as Ive nothing against him being split-nationality and would find a way to degrade his abilities oriundo or not so excuse me for that. Toloi just seems to possess no intelligence in how to defend an oncoming player as even regular situations he is blocking them as if its a needed last ditch cynical foul.

Italy historically have had great Oriundi for them from Altafini to Sivori to Camoranesi and bless them for their service.

I will admit I was surprised to see Gianluca Mancini left at home in favor of Toloi, but then again, Atalanta did have a better defensive record than Roma this past season. How much either had to do with Toloi or Mancini is debatable. Do you think Mancini would've fared better?

rincon wrote:Toloi is a good player. Good defender and versatile. Didn't do anything of note last night, it happens, but he is good.

I frankly regret that we let him go. He could've been quite useful for us. That said and, Roma bias aside, I think Mancini would've done better for Italy personally.

Mancini was comoeting with Bastoni and Acerbi more than with Toloi.

Toloi is there because he plays a right back or as the RCB in a back 3. Not as a pure CB for Mancini. He has been extra useful too since Florenzi got injured so early.

by Superstone Mariomintsch Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:57 pm

Well, Oyarzabal was saved by Morata. Had it ended in 1-0, he would've been the single scapegoat. This was a great game in which Italy, the best team of the tournament were being dominated.

That was down to two key aspects. Pedri stopping Jorginho from building up attacks, thus leaving Italy to spray long passes from their defenders. And as what we all have noticed, the use of Olmo as false 9. In which the old defensive generals Chiellini-Bonucci opted not to close down to midfield, perhaps due to fear of having to turn back to recover. Jorginho then, having 1 v 2 against Pedri and Olmo, simply couldn't deal with them.

Spain were great, much better than most of us expected. They dominated posession as always and creating numerous chances. But as has been the case whole tournament, they couldn't finish and are quite weak at the back. That Eric Garcia defending on Chiesa was poor.

Busquets as the remains of the great dominators of the decade's early years, showed why he's a key component of that Spain and Barcelona team. Olmo performed his role well and would've been MOTM if Spain were to win before penalties. Pedri though, what a guy :bow:

He's simply couldn't be touched. That composure and all those passes he picked. It was amazing he misplaced just two of them. With Fati coming back and the other young talents maturing, they shouldn't worry that much about their future.

The loss of Spinazzola was always going to impact Italy as he's a safe outball on the left and simply has high octane engine. Emerson did okay though for me, he was involved in Italy's two best chances. But perhaps Mancini felt Spain had more leeway from his side. Thus, he put Di Lorenzo there and subbed in Toloi for Emerson; perhaps a wrong move, as that flipped the connection in the backline.

In the end, Spain with their domination just couldn't break through the Italian defending. They coped well throughout 120 minutes, managed to survive just fine, and much cooler in the penalties. Jorginho with the hop Proud

They deserved to get to the final as they're the best team of the tournament still, at the moment.

by futbol_bill Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:30 pm

I want to set the record straight regarding these statements that Enrique is anti Madrid. First off, He started off his NT management with a full emphasis on Madrid players and this team did contain Morata, Sarabia, Marcos Llorente and Diego Llorente, all Madrid products.

I have said in hindsight he should have selected CBs Ramos and Nacho over Garcia and Diego Llorente, but at the time, the explanations to not select them made sense. but other than those two, which were difficult decisions, who else at Madrid should have been selected? Isco - not on recent form, Asensio - likewise. He is on Olympic team and he will get a chance to make a case, but I highly doubt it. Ceballos - same situation as Asensio. Carvajal would have been #1 choice had he not been injured. Lucas - also injured but he loses out to Marcos Llorente both at RB and versatility. That’s the full extent of the Spanish content of Real Madrid!

by Warrior Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:05 pm

Arquitecto wrote:Chiesa is an interesting call for CF as do you really think he has the central tendencies for that? He is basically two-footed and has a creative side to him but to be placed central is similar to when great forwards want to replicate Henry and fail there as unless you're suggesting a False 9 here. But he seems comfortable in all areas in the box so that does help

Chiesa relies a lot on acceleration so i don't think him playing centrally is ideal. But for one match, a calculated risk worth taking because of his work-rate and technique. He can help the defense AND combine with Insigne and Berardi. The grinta and confidence he got is worth more than Immobile's poverty pressing and hasty shots in final zone.

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