343 is a piece of crap

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:34 pm

Because they arent playing as good (Pedro, Villa) had had worse injuries and have a player we dont need (Cesc) who forces us to play differently.

All those things have been a bigger problem then the defending in a 343.

Granted, Cesc and 343 goes hand in hand.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:25 pm

@The Franchise wrote:Because they arent playing as good (Pedro, Villa) had had worse injuries and have a player we dont need (Cesc) who forces us to play differently.

All those things have been a bigger problem then the defending in a 343.

Granted, Cesc and 343 goes hand in hand.

I pretty much agree completely but have to ask considering the present circumstances wouldn't we have suffered even more from lack of goals if we didn't have Fabregas.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:35 pm

We played 433 today with Cesc as a midfielder and we delivered the best performance of the season by far.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:36 am

Interesting discussions here.... just how important adn effective Cesc has been for us. I agree that hes added a dimension and has been great for us. But in some games and for example for the first half of the latest Cup Classico, he was lost in his free role LM or CM or AM and caused us to bunch up and little width. And against sides that park the bus I prefer width than over crowding the midfield. Which is why some teams have been able to make it hard for us to score and nick goals on the counter.

I like how Pep is experimenting and his introduction of Cesc and Sanchez has been great, but I hope he shows more flexibility in changing according to which opponent we play and also during games when things arent working out at times...

Im glad he went 4-3-3 today anyhow, since we have struggled lately with 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 is always more safe.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:24 am

Free it was more of a 4-2-3-1..........

Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
Xavi Busquets
Messi Fabregas Iniesta
Sanchez

I will tell you why i dont like it, because implementing Fabregas in that position forces Messi, Iniesta and Sanchez out of position.

Feel free to discuss away.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by jibers on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:12 am

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Free it was more of a 4-2-3-1..........

Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
Xavi Busquets
Messi Fabregas Iniesta
Sanchez

I will tell you why i dont like it, because implementing Fabregas in that position forces Messi, Iniesta and Sanchez out of position.

Feel free to discuss away.

lol. Here we go. Fabregas in the side has forced Messi to play an actual '10' role and he further away from the RM goal. Messi is just a demn though. As I said You can't really pigeon hole Barcas tactics at all. What I fond funny is a lot of Barcas attacks were concentrated on their right flanks.... lol

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:40 am

Today was our best performance by far? I disagree. The 1-3 was better than the 1-2.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:37 am

Don't let the result cloud the avaluation of the performance. We dominated the whole match today and it was almost impossible that Madrid won the game. In the 1-3, there were lapses of the game we didn't dominate, and Madrid could have won it with luck. Also, compare the stats. No colour:

Madrid 1 Barça 3:

16 Remates totales 11
6 Remates a puerta 7
4 Remates fuera 3
13 Llegadas totales al area 12
417 Pases totales realizados 636
3 Córners a favor 5
2 Fueras de juego 3
21 Faltas cometidas 13
4 Tarjetas amarillas recibidas 3
0 Tarjetas rojas recibidas 0
83 Balones perdidos 85
63 Balones recuperados 63
42% Posesión total en el partido 58%

Madrid 1 Barça 2
5 Remates totales 11
2 Remates a puerta 5
2 Remates fuera 4
12 Llegadas totales al area 26
357 Pases totales realizados 853
x Córners a favor x
1 Fueras de juego 4
20 Faltas cometidas 13
4 Tarjetas amarillas recibidas 3
0 Tarjetas rojas recibidas 0
78 Balones perdidos 73
49 Balones recuperados 59
32% Posesión total en el partido 68%

More posession, same shots in our favour (IMO we had more clear chances yesterday than the 1-3), half the amount of the shots conceded, less lost balls, much mor passes, two times more arrivals into the area...

Our best performance.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:38 am

Immaculate_Mole wrote:Free it was more of a 4-2-3-1..........

Alves Pique Puyol Abidal
Xavi Busquets
Messi Fabregas Iniesta
Sanchez

I will tell you why i dont like it, because implementing Fabregas in that position forces Messi, Iniesta and Sanchez out of position.

Feel free to discuss away.

I don't think so, we played 433, but Cesc moves a lot forward because of his instincts. Anyway, there's little difference between 433 and 4231 when the AM is midfielder instead of a forward.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:44 am

Maybe but I feel like psychologically the circumstances under which we went into the 1-3 were much more against us than this one, and to then make a comeback after essentially playing the entire game with a one goal disadvantage gave us a huge psychological lead. On the other hand, we went into this game as equals.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by billy_gr on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48 am

I saw:

------------------Pinto---------------------
Alves----Pique---Puyol-----Abidal

------------Busquets----------------

Xavi-----------------------Fabregas


Messi----Alexis-------Iniesta



With Messi going way back in order to drag Pepe with him.

Overall when we can comfortably win the league leaders with this formation, it’s clear that we should pick it over 3-4-3 for me
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Maybe but I feel like psychologically the circumstances under which we went into the 1-3 were much more against us than this one, and to then make a comeback after essentially playing the entire game with a one goal disadvantage gave us a huge psychological lead. On the other hand, we went into this game as equals.

Ok, it's a good point, but performance wise, we were better yesterday.

I agree with Billy's post, that's the lineup I saw, but Cesc instinct of going forward made it look like a 4231 sometimes.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:44 pm

@free_cat wrote:We played 433 today with Cesc as a midfielder and we delivered the best performance of the season by far.

Even on a very poor stream with many long disruptions I got to understand that this time we were playing a 4-3-3 very close to our 2010-11 style. However there was still a price to pay. Iniesta being played as left forward means not using him in his best capacity. I do think that apart from that missed chance he didn't have a bad game and tried very hard but still we can't realize his full magic if he don't give him the freedom of the midfield. Are we doing this to accommodate Fabregas or because we have run out of forwards in form or both? Anyway I don't like it but then I can't keep complaining against the man whose decision it is because he has given us so much joy and still continues to do so.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:48 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@free_cat wrote:We played 433 today with Cesc as a midfielder and we delivered the best performance of the season by far.

Even on a very poor stream with many long disruptions I got to understand that this time we were playing a 4-3-3 very close to our 2010-11 style. However there was still a price to pay. Iniesta being played as left forward means not using him in his best capacity. I do think that apart from that missed chance he didn't have a bad game and tried very hard but still we can't realize his full magic if he don't give him the freedom of the midfield. Are we doing this to accommodate Fabregas or because we have run out of forwards in form or both? Anyway I don't like it but then I can't keep complaining against the man whose decision it is because he has given us so much joy and still continues to do so.

I think that the reason Iniesta was (is being) played as left wing is because we are lacking many forwards. Anyway, even if all forwards were fit, we would see Iniesta down the left usually to accomodate Cesc in the rotation. So it's 50%-50%.
I agree with you that Iniesta plays his best as CM, but he had a very good match except for his lack of finishing, so we can't complain.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:54 pm

@free_cat wrote:Don't let the result cloud the avaluation of the performance. We dominated the whole match today and it was almost impossible that Madrid won the game.

Yes perhaps but to be very honest that's not too much to our credit. Real Madrid played with three DMs in the center ( yes X.Alonso is more of a CM but he is certainly not an AM ) and three forwards ahead of them ( none of them is even remotely a play maker ). How many times have you seen a team line up in such a disconnected manner? The only thing they did was block space and if somehow we lost the ball and they got it then they ran with it as if they were running for their lives. I must point out here that we were more comfortable this time than we have been in the past when they have deployed such tactics against us. The reasons for this could be that this time we seemed much more physically fit than we used to be in the earlier clashes and Madrid to their credit did not play violently ( with the exception of Pepe who is a brute anyway ). If we had Valdes I don't think they would have scored. Anyway that goal actually resulted because we were caught unawares and C.Ronaldo used the one quality he undoubtedly possesses i.e. his speed. Valdes in goal, some more caution in defense and much better finishing could have seen close to another Manita.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:59 pm

@billy_gr wrote:I saw:

------------------Pinto---------------------
Alves----Pique---Puyol-----Abidal

------------Busquets----------------

Xavi-----------------------Fabregas


Messi----Alexis-------Iniesta


Agree almost completely but I think Messi was in the center and Alexis on the right. I watched on a very poor stream and missed most of the match. So I can't say anything for sure though.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:06 pm

@free_cat wrote:
I think that the reason Iniesta was (is being) played as left wing is because we are lacking many forwards. Anyway, even if all forwards were fit, we would see Iniesta down the left usually to accomodate Cesc in the rotation. So it's 50%-50%.
I agree with you that Iniesta plays his best as CM, but he had a very good match except for his lack of finishing, so we can't complain.

I can't debate that but two points still remain. One is that playing Iniesta as left forward means you are diminishing the finishing qualities of the team. The second is having him alongside Xavi in central midfield can take the magic of the midfield to even higher levels even when facing a team who comes out to play football which last night's opponents anyway did not intend to do. Playing a tactically brilliant player like Iniesta who can read the entire pitch and the game so well on one wing is at least a partial waste of him.


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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by free_cat on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:09 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@free_cat wrote:Don't let the result cloud the avaluation of the performance. We dominated the whole match today and it was almost impossible that Madrid won the game.

Yes perhaps but to be very honest that's not too much to our credit. Real Madrid played with three DMs in the center ( yes X.Alonso is more of a CM but he is certainly not an AM ) and three forwards ahead of them ( none of them is even remotely a play maker ). How many times have you seen a team line up in such a disconnected manner? The only thing they did was block space and if somehow we lost the ball and they got it then they ran with it as if they were running for their lives. I must point out here that we were more comfortable this time than we have been in the past when they have deployed such tactics against us. The reasons for this could be that this time we seemed much more physically fit than we used to be in the earlier clashes and Madrid to their credit did not play violently ( with the exception of Pepe who is a brute anyway ). If we had Valdes I don't think they would have scored. Anyway that goal actually resulted because we were caught unawares and C.Ronaldo used the one quality he undoubtedly possesses i.e. his speed. Valdes in goal, some more caution in defense and much better finishing could have seen close to another Manita.

As you say, Madrid has played with 3 DM midfielders versus us in other occasions (Cup final, CL semifinals at their home) and we didn't perform as good as yesterday. Yes, we had the ball, but we weren't able to create as much as yesterday. I think that was a great match, and the best of the season so far for us.

I hope we can keep this form up and stop dropping points away. It can happen if we stop using the 343 finally.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarcaLearning on Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:50 pm

Good discussion guys...I think with the lineup, its naturally for Iniesta, Sanchez and Cesc to rotate sort of who stays wide left. Villa does it normally. I like Iniesta out there as well as midfield. Sometimes in midfield its crowed with oppositions and he used to play for Spain as left winger too, and he plays it very well imo.

Is it just me but Cesc as good as he is, sometimes slows down the play and tends to pause and look for a second or 2 b4 picking his accurate passes which are very good, but sometimes just disrupts the flow of our game? Add to the sacrificing a bit for width for midfield control. He makes it up by his runs and interplay. I dont know but there are certainly times where, Messi, Xavi, Cesc, Busquets, Iniesta all bunch up in there, would like that to improve even more against teams who park the bus.

Our left side has always been our weakness, especailly when KEita or Maxwell fills in when Iniesta is injured. I hope thats solves, perhaps with Adriano, Iniesta, Villa back, tell Abidal to attack more, Afelley, or a new player in the summer Razz
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:11 pm

Well I agree it was clearly more 433 than 343 and I am glad for that, though I defend the formation I still obviously prefer our "old" way.

However, I think its not exactly how Billy had it.

Iniesta wasnt as high as Sanchez, he was closer to the midfield band than the forward band, just obviously out wide rather than centerally.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:16 pm

I saw something closer to what Mole saw, but the system is so fluid it hardly makes a difference.

Anyways, this is what Zonal Marking saw:




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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:17 pm

@free_cat wrote:
As you say, Madrid has played with 3 DM midfielders versus us in other occasions (Cup final, CL semifinals at their home) and we didn't perform as good as yesterday. Yes, we had the ball, but we weren't able to create as much as yesterday. I think that was a great match, and the best of the season so far for us.

I hope we can keep this form up and stop dropping points away. It can happen if we stop using the 343 finally.

Yes that makes sense. If we can avoid dropping even a single point from now on in La Liga we can still be in the race.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by messixaviesta on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:24 pm

@BarcaLearning wrote:
Is it just me but Cesc as good as he is, sometimes slows down the play and tends to pause and look for a second or 2 b4 picking his accurate passes which are very good, but sometimes just disrupts the flow of our game?

Actually I think exactly the same. There are two reasons for it. One is he is not as good tactically as Xaviesta and has unsatisfactory off the ball movement. The second is that he is not as technically brilliant as our midfield maestros and doesn't have the silky skills or the slickness to avoid a marker and keep circulating the ball fast or as in Iniesta's case moving with it as well. What he does have though besides his goalscoring is consistent high quality passing. His passes are very precise and given a chance he is very likely to set up an attacker with clear cut scoring chances. Still given a choice I would play with three proper forwards and put Iniesta next to Xavi to recreate the midfield that has for years now been the soul of Barcelona.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:26 pm

I am glad iam not blind then Alf or are you blind too !?

Anyway looking at the Zonal Marking image iam starting to understand why Pep did what he did......

With Pepe in midfield he would follow Messi all over the place like a hound following meat.

So with Sanchez in between Pepe and the two centre backs and Fabregas in between Pepe and Alonso there would be lots of space to exploit.

Messi would'nt have been shackled as easy, unfortunatly for Pep, Messi did'nt perform anyway near like he can but if he did he would have found a ridiculous amount of space because of Sanchez and Fabregas attracting attention from Pepe, Diarra and the two CB's.

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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by The Franchise on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:28 pm

How zonalmarking has it is pretty much how I saw it, maybe not the arrow for Iniesta though. If anything his movement (with the ball) started from the touchline and coming in, while without the ball it was leftcentermidfield going out wide. Minor anyway.

One thing I did wonder about which zonalmarking remarked on too, why was it Pique on the rightside of center defence when Puyol usually does this vs Madrid and does it very well?

I dont think if it would a made a difference in Cristiano's goal, because Pique didnt do alot wrong in that defensive sequence but still.
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Re: 343 is a piece of crap

Post by BarrileteCosmico on Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:30 pm

Maybe Pep thought that Puyol wouldn't be able to deal with Cristiano's speed after being out for so long.

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