Golden Ball and other WC Awards

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:47 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@rwo power wrote:I'm not amused that Manuel Neuer didn't make the Golden Ball shortlist. He played as CB additionally to GK.


He probably played CB more than GK lol, anyway apart from the sweeping stuff i can't remember Neuer making that many saves.

To me Navas has been the best GK of the WC.


I'm not kidding, some of that lack in remembrance stems from the way Neuer makes his saves. The harder the save was, the more of an innocuous face he makes afterwards and the faster he  throws the ball back in play - "move on nothing to see here".

It's pretty hilarious actually.

Other keepers usually throw themselves on the ground with the ball and take a heavy breath, so people can reflect on what a save they made.

Also, I think it's pretty wrong thinking to not consider the sweeping interceptions as equivalent to 'saves', and he made some spectacular ones that no other gk would pull.

But, as we saw with the opta stuff, statistics don't understand and capture such complexities lol, and I guess statistics are influential for these kinds of lists and rankings.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:54 pm

That's not to take anything away from Navas who was out of this world against Holland, but honestly you would expect a goalkeeper who wins best player award to actually SAVE a penalty in a penalty shootout, too.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by FalcaoPunch on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:07 pm

Has Argentinas defense been that good this tournament that they deserve to be on the short list?

I understand they haven't conceded goals but is that because of how good they are or how incompetent some of the teams they've played have been?
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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:10 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Is this the first time they are doing outfield players and goalkeepers separate? Or was it like this last time? I can't recall.

Anyways I'm going for Neuer and Messi. German players will divide the votes between themselves,  too many contenders.

There is no official declaration saying goalkeepers are to be excluded as far as I know and if that happened I would be very against it. All players should compete for the big prizes except of course specific prizes. Neuer's exclusion is so baffling. Lahm and Di Maria's inclusions aren't very convincing.



i wonder why! dont you think that makes more sense??? there is no special prize for best striker or best midfielder or best defender. then why there should be a best keeper award, specially when the cometition is far low for that prize in compare to the other one. if so, does not it make sense to exclude them from the best player award?? I don know whther its an official declaration, even if so i feel it completely justified.
Infact the defenders can feel ignored here. best keeper award is for the keepers, best scorer for strikers/attacking mid (more or less), best player for mostly for the midfielders/forwards.... so basically no prize for the defenders....

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:15 pm

@FalcaoPunch wrote:Has Argentinas defense been that good this tournament that they deserve to be on the short list?

I understand they haven't conceded goals but is that because of how good they are or how incompetent some of the teams they've played have been?


you know what, some people will repeat this even if argentina defeat germany in final. i can remember how some people said Swiss has the ability to shake this scrub defense,Belgium to torn us apart and how Robben to run riot on this defense. The world just does not like to give the due respect to this scrub defense... :facepalm: 

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:18 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:That's not to take anything away from Navas who was out of this world against Holland, but honestly you would expect a goalkeeper who wins best player award to actually SAVE a penalty in a penalty shootout, too.


dont know how much does this makes sense actually...also how many penalty Neuer saved in this WC  :coffee: 

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:21 pm

@Don't call me James wrote:Hames should win. Still the best performer in the tourney even after the semis. His too main contenders Messi and Robben were horribly underwhelming in the semis.


Now really, stop it with this Hames shit. The hype is getting ridiculous Laughing

If Hames was that great, he might've just gotten himself the chance to underwhelm in the semi like his 'main contenders' Messi and Robben.

Oh, and Kroos and Müller certainly didn't underwhelm in the semis, you know.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:23 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:That's not to take anything away from Navas who was out of this world against Holland, but honestly you would expect a goalkeeper who wins best player award to actually SAVE a penalty in a penalty shootout, too.


dont know how much does this makes sense actually...also how many penalty Neuer saved in this WC  :coffee: 


The difference is that Neuers team didn't go out of the tournament in a penalty shootout in which he didn't save one pen.


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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:24 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@rwo power wrote:I'm not amused that Manuel Neuer didn't make the Golden Ball shortlist. He played as CB additionally to GK.


He probably played CB more than GK lol, anyway apart from the sweeping stuff i can't remember Neuer making that many saves.

To me Navas has been the best GK of the WC.


I'm not kidding, some of that lack in remembrance stems from the way Neuer makes his saves. The harder the save was, the more of an innocuous face he makes afterwards and the faster he  throws the ball back in play - "move on nothing to see here".

It's pretty hilarious actually.

Other keepers usually throw themselves on the ground with the ball and take a heavy breath, so people can reflect on what a save they made.

Also, I think it's pretty wrong thinking to not consider the sweeping interceptions as equivalent to 'saves', and he made some spectacular ones that no other gk would pull.

But, as we saw with the opta stuff, statistics don't understand and capture such complexities lol, and I guess statistics are influential for these kinds of lists and rankings.


people decide which one is a great save from the keeper's facial expression!!! i wonder how many people would agree with you but it seems a ridiculous argument to me.....anyway
i rather think many people consider a simple save as a great save....infact basically any save from Neuer is considered a great save....with that being said, there is nothing to take from Neuer who is probably the best keeper in the world at the moment. i just feel some one had better performance than him..

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:26 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:To me Navas has been the best GK of the WC.

I think it's debatable. The fairest solution that I can think of is to have both Neuer and Navas in the golden ball shortlist instead of Lahm and Di Maria. Garay is also a possibility for inclusion.



cant disagree with exclusion of Lahm and Di maria. but not sure of how much Garay deserve though....

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Hapless_Hans on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:28 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:


He probably played CB more than GK lol, anyway apart from the sweeping stuff i can't remember Neuer making that many saves.

To me Navas has been the best GK of the WC.


I'm not kidding, some of that lack in remembrance stems from the way Neuer makes his saves. The harder the save was, the more of an innocuous face he makes afterwards and the faster he  throws the ball back in play - "move on nothing to see here".

It's pretty hilarious actually.

Other keepers usually throw themselves on the ground with the ball and take a heavy breath, so people can reflect on what a save they made.

Also, I think it's pretty wrong thinking to not consider the sweeping interceptions as equivalent to 'saves', and he made some spectacular ones that no other gk would pull.

But, as we saw with the opta stuff, statistics don't understand and capture such complexities lol, and I guess statistics are influential for these kinds of lists and rankings.


people decide which one is a great save from the keeper's facial expression!!! i wonder how many people would agree with you but it seems a ridiculous argument to me.....anyway
i rather think many people consider a simple save as a great save....infact basically any save from Neuer is considered a great save....with that being said, there is nothing to take from Neuer who is probably the best keeper in the world at the moment. i just feel some one had better performance than him..


You think it is ridiculous but I think it is not to be underestimated what the body language of a gk does for his defense, and to the strikers who want to score past him.

And I do absolutely believe it affects people's perception.

Neuer makes it look easy, that's why people think he's making easy saves.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:30 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
..................BTW golden ball is not announced before the final. The problem is that the voting opens before the final. Since some people vote before the final is completed at times performances in the final have less impact. It would be great if voting/discussions opened only after the final as happens at Euros.



do you know who will vote??? fifa technical study group made the shortlist....but i guess the journalist will vote for the final selection. if so, its is difficult to arrange a final voting after the final match i think.....

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:34 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
@neuro11 wrote:
@Hapless_Hans wrote:


I'm not kidding, some of that lack in remembrance stems from the way Neuer makes his saves. The harder the save was, the more of an innocuous face he makes afterwards and the faster he  throws the ball back in play - "move on nothing to see here".

It's pretty hilarious actually.

Other keepers usually throw themselves on the ground with the ball and take a heavy breath, so people can reflect on what a save they made.

Also, I think it's pretty wrong thinking to not consider the sweeping interceptions as equivalent to 'saves', and he made some spectacular ones that no other gk would pull.

But, as we saw with the opta stuff, statistics don't understand and capture such complexities lol, and I guess statistics are influential for these kinds of lists and rankings.


people decide which one is a great save from the keeper's facial expression!!! i wonder how many people would agree with you but it seems a ridiculous argument to me.....anyway
i rather think many people consider a simple save as a great save....infact basically any save from Neuer is considered a great save....with that being said, there is nothing to take from Neuer who is probably the best keeper in the world at the moment. i just feel some one had better performance than him..


You think it is ridiculous but I think it is not to be underestimated what the body language of a gk does for his defense, and to the strikers who want to score past him.

And I do absolutely believe it affects people's perception.

Neuer makes it look easy, that's why people think he's making easy saves.


wait, .... I completely agree with your first line. There is no doubt. But two are completely different things for me.
I personally never felt the same about aftwerwards expression...so i wonder whether any other really think that affects their decision....

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by FalcaoPunch on Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:48 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@FalcaoPunch wrote:Has Argentinas defense been that good this tournament that they deserve to be on the short list?

I understand they haven't conceded goals but is that because of how good they are or how incompetent some of the teams they've played have been?


you know what, some people will repeat this even if argentina defeat germany in final. i can remember how some people said Swiss has the ability to shake this scrub defense,Belgium to torn us apart and how Robben to run riot on this defense. The world just does not like to give the due respect to this scrub defense... :facepalm: 


I should have pointed out that your best defensive performance was against Netherlands. Hell of a game from all of them.

I'm talking about the earlier games.
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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by rwo power on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:13 pm

@neuro11 wrote:i rather think many people consider a simple save as a great save....infact basically any save from Neuer is considered a great save....with that being said, there is nothing to take from Neuer who is probably the best keeper in the world at the moment. i just feel some one had better performance than him..
Well, you might think about *why* Manuel Neuer's saves look so easy. That's because his positioning is perfect. After all, a good goalie kann stay on his legs most of the time and doesn't have to make numerous hollywood saves.

As Sepp Maier once said: "Wennst richtig zum Ball stehst, brauchst net fliagen." (= "If you are correctly positioned towards the ball, you don't have to fly.")

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by messixaviesta on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:32 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
I'm not kidding, some of that lack in remembrance stems from the way Neuer makes his saves. The harder the save was, the more of an innocuous face he makes afterwards and the faster he  throws the ball back in play - "move on nothing to see here".

It's pretty hilarious actually.

Other keepers usually throw themselves on the ground with the ball and take a heavy breath, so people can reflect on what a save they made.

Also, I think it's pretty wrong thinking to not consider the sweeping interceptions as equivalent to 'saves', and he made some spectacular ones that no other gk would pull.

So very well said!!!

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by messixaviesta on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:34 pm

@FalcaoPunch wrote:Has Argentinas defense been that good this tournament  that they deserve to be on the short list?

I understand they haven't conceded goals but is that because of how good they are or how incompetent some of the teams they've played have been?

There is no defender from Argentina in the shortlist. Garay I only suggested as a debatable possibility.


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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by messixaviesta on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:37 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
@BarrileteCosmico wrote:Is this the first time they are doing outfield players and goalkeepers separate? Or was it like this last time? I can't recall.

Anyways I'm going for Neuer and Messi. German players will divide the votes between themselves,  too many contenders.

There is no official declaration saying goalkeepers are to be excluded as far as I know and if that happened I would be very against it. All players should compete for the big prizes except of course specific prizes. Neuer's exclusion is so baffling. Lahm and Di Maria's inclusions aren't very convincing.



i wonder why! dont you think that makes more sense??? there is no special prize for best striker or best midfielder or best defender. then why there should be a best keeper award, specially when the cometition is far low for that prize in compare to the other one. if so, does not it make sense to exclude them from the best player award?? I don know whther its an official declaration, even if so i feel it completely justified.
Infact the defenders can feel ignored here. best keeper award is for the keepers, best scorer for strikers/attacking mid (more or less), best player for mostly for the midfielders/forwards.... so basically no prize for the defenders....

Well then I would that they abolish the golden gloves award instead. I don't want the goalkeeper to be treated so differently from the rest. Or if it had to be then it should have been traditionally so. Who would be that impressed if Neuer won best goalkeeper but if he won best player just imagine the prestige of it. I will repeat what I said earlier. Since Kahn won in 2002 it's not fair to not even allow Neuer a shot at it.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by messixaviesta on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:40 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:To me Navas has been the best GK of the WC.

I think it's debatable. The fairest solution that I can think of is to have both Neuer and Navas in the golden ball shortlist instead of Lahm and Di Maria. Garay is also a possibility for inclusion.



cant disagree with exclusion of Lahm and Di maria. but not sure of how much Garay deserve though....

Thanks. I am not insisting on Garay though I appreciate his consistent efforts. Since we agree on taking out these two which two would you add instead? I suggest Neuer and Navas. What are your thoughts?


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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by messixaviesta on Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:43 pm

@neuro11 wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
..................BTW golden ball is not announced before the final. The problem is that the voting opens before the final. Since some people vote before the final is completed at times performances in the final have less impact. It would be great if voting/discussions opened only after the final as happens at Euros.



do you know who will vote??? fifa technical study group made the shortlist....but i guess the journalist will vote for the final selection. if so, its is difficult to arrange a final voting after the final match i think.....

Good point. The article says the voting is a 50-50 between journalists and TSG. It is so important that the final be considered in totality before a single vote is cast. Maybe they could do something like no submissions before final whistle and you can change your earlier choice before submitting if you want. Smile It's hard though as you said.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by neuro11 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:48 pm

@rwo power wrote:
@neuro11 wrote:i rather think many people consider a simple save as a great save....infact basically any save from Neuer is considered a great save....with that being said, there is nothing to take from Neuer who is probably the best keeper in the world at the moment. i just feel some one had better performance than him..
Well, you might think about *why* Manuel Neuer's saves look so easy. That's because his positioning is perfect. After all, a good goalie kann stay on his legs most of the time and doesn't have to make numerous hollywood saves.

As Sepp Maier once said: "Wennst richtig zum Ball stehst, brauchst net fliagen." (= "If you are correctly positioned towards the ball, you don't have to fly.")


cant disagree with the importance this though....

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by RealGunner on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:38 pm

The @AFP team of the World Cup: Neuer; Lahm, Thiago Silva, Hummels, Höwedes; Kroos, Mascherano; Robben, Rodriguez, Müller; Messi.

AFP = Agence France-Presse
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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by El Gunner on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:49 pm

At this moment Hames is still my pick.

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Ganso on Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:49 pm

Howedes Laughing
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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by rwo power on Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:00 pm

Höwedes had 86% tackle success. He's just not good going forward, but he kept the defensive duties. Brazil could have used a Höwedes in the last two matches :coffee:

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Re: Golden Ball and other WC Awards

Post by Ganso on Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:03 pm

7 goals were enough lol
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