Re: The Bundesliga Thread

[izzy]

Actually very good examples. They were dying to come to Madrid when at Atleti but we would have nothing of it. Only time the Falcao option was (allegedly) considered was once he left for Monaco.

Poaching off of domestic rivals is considered a crime in La Liga and that's the way it should be tbh. It rarely happens in EPL other than with Arsenal whoring themselves... almost never in Ligue 1. Serie A... it never used to. Not sure now as i haven't followed closely.

I wouldn't call this specific case poaching though.

I don't know the in's and out's of the Lewandowski move. Depending on who you talk to, the player is a scumbag, some say Bayern are.

Goetze? He made his choice imo.

I just think in this case, these players should be held accountable.

[Hapless_Hans]

You know, I will say this (in regards to the Dortmund thing);

Goetze: They paid the release clause, it then comes down to the player....... he could have said no.

Lewandowski: Well, depends who you talk to really.

Point is though... if Goetze and Lewa were on Atleti or Barca, Madrid would never make a move on them, release clause or not. Those players would need to go somewhere else before Madrid would go after them.

Yes, because Real would not have gotten Courtois if they had had the opportunity. NEVER.
And of course, if Lewandowski had gone to Real Madrid instead to Bayern, or if Reus joins you in summer, you would be nowhere to be seen or heard about the weakening of Bundesliga.
Because that would be so much better for our league which is dear to your heart.

Now *bleep* off, really.

[sportsczy]

They're not our rivals... sure we can poach teams that our not our domestic rivals.  What do we care about other leagues.  it's not our problem.  We just won't touch our domestic rivals, Barca and Atleti, UNLESS they approach us to sell us a player.  There will be icecubes in hell before that happens.

Btw, if Mou had stayed, Ramos had asked Flo permission to leave and talk to Barca.   Allegedly, that permission was granted.  It never came to be... but that's how things are handled.

And the truth is that the best keeper in La Liga that we could go after was Navas... Courtois was an Atleti player and we didn't even consider him.  Now that Courtois is at Chelsea, he's a potential target. Same with De Gea at Man U.

[Hapless_Hans]

You're full of s**t.

You don't buy players from your rivals because you can't get them, not because you wouldn't want to weaken your rivals or because of an unwritten code of honour that exists in La Liga but not in the Bundesliga.

So you get the standout players from all the next teams, Malaga or Real Sociedad, or Barca from Sevilla, because those teams are so weakened by the ridiculous inequality of money distribution they're basically always broke.
But surely your league is not weakened by Isco or Illaramendi sitting on your bench instead of playing for a upper midtable team?

Unless clubs like Dortmund reach a position where they can keep all their stars, some of their most in-demand players will leave. Period
It makes absolutely ZERO sense to claim the league is weakened because those players leave to us, instead of going to other top teams while we get other top players.

While on the other hand the relatively fair basic setup of the Bundesliga makes it possible for a club like Dortmund to actually get nearer to the point where less players will leave, after being broke as a beggar just 8 years ago, just through steady good work and without outside money.
Which certainly is not the case in other leagues.

So again, *bleep* off, you're full of s**t.

Can I get my -25% now?

[Helmer]

now both are on 50%, now we can have a good wrestlemania fight
Btw, I cant belive this crap of Bayern weakening BL keeps on coming up and to support that People put arguments of other leagues

[Hapless_Hans]

btw, sports, I don't mean this personally and I actually don't have anything against you - I'm sure you're a really nice guy.

But I declared that I would answer these perpetual, tiring, hypocritical and untenable same old talking points with insults, so that's what I do

[rwo power]

But I declared that I would answer these perpetual, tiring, hypocritical same old bullshit argument with insults, so that's what I do  

But you are aware that reaching 0% gives you a (temporary) ban during which you can't post anything at all? And that setting up a second account would be a permanently bannable offense?

[Hapless_Hans]

sure RWO, I'm in control of myself. I'm done now anyway, I feel bad about being rude to sports already
Unless some other poster comes along with the same stuff, AGAIN, that is.

[dostoevsky]

You have my permission to tag me in to carry on the debate for you if you are going to lose your temper. Please don't throw away any more of your warning level, you're a valued contributor.

[sportsczy]

Yeah we can't get them  That's why Maradona, Aguero's father-in-law at the time, was begging Madrid to buy Aguero before he went to City and VERY PUBLICLY.  That's why Falcao and his agent Mendes were meeting with Flo (pictures taken and published on media) and only accepted Monaco's offer after we said we would not buy an Atleti player...

Even Flo has said it publicly on a couple of occasions... very clearly.   He said (going on memory):  "We will battle our rivals to sign players that are not on our rosters.  But we will not engage in buying each others' active players in a hostile manner.  It's bad for the fans and it's bad for Spanish football.  There's plenty of great football players in the world that it is an unnecessary practice." I can dig it up if you want. It's in one of the annual socio meetings' press conferences from what i recall.

Besides, it's just stupid politics.  The presidents of Barca, Madrid and Atleti are voted in by the socios (season ticket holders).  Do you think they would have their jobs for very long if they sold their best players to their rivals?  They'd be out the door before they could blink.  And that goes even beyond those 3...  other clubs with similar ownership structures like Athletico and LaReal also face similar consequences if they sold out.  The presidents of these clubs don't want to embarrass each other either so they refrain from doing things that creates hostility with their constituents.

Only in Bundi is it "OK" to sell your soul to Bayern.

[sportsczy]

Also, name me one top league in Europe where rival teams sell their best players to each other like it's done with Bayern in Bundi.  And i mean real rivals.  Do you see Man U, Man City and Chelsea transacting?  Juve, Napoli, Roma, Milan Lazio, etc.?  PSG, OM and Lyon?  I already mentioned La Liga.  It's just not done.

Only spineless club that i can recently recall in those leagues is Arsenal.

[Hapless_Hans]

Bayern dominated 89 minutes of their match, playing 70 of those with 10 men, while already being top of their group.

I don't think we dominated 89 minutes. I think after 65-70 minutes up to Schweini coming on we were pinned back, and City were making us feel their numerical advantage.
We managed to pass out of pressure though quite a few times, but we didn't committ enough anymore to finishing those attacks.
We were hanging on to the lead, but it's no coincidence either that individual mistakes like Alonso's and Boateng's would happen under severe pressure.

[dostoevsky]

This is all fairly wild speculation about whether players truly were attainable or whether there were other factors that influenced the decision to go after alternatives in the market.

It still leaves several points that Hans brought up unanswered however. How does it hurt the league to keep talent in Germany as opposed to if they leave to England or Spain? Why does it help the league as a whole that the big clubs attack the smaller teams but not their direct rivals? Does it improve competition within the league domestically? Does it improve the league's performance in Europe?

Furthermore, I find it odd that of all the supposed transfers, you fixated upon Lewa and Goetze, two situations in which Dortmund were absolutely powerless to do anything to stop the teams going to Bayern when you seem to largely talk about the attitude towards transfers being different in Germany somehow.

[Hapless_Hans]

Also, name me one top league in Europe where rival teams sell their best players to each other like it's done with Bayern in Bundi.  And i mean real rivals.  Do you see Man U, Man City and Chelsea transacting?  Juve, Napoli, Roma, Milan Lazio, etc.?  PSG, OM and Lyon?  I already mentioned La Liga.  It's just not done.

Only spineless club that i can recently recall in those leagues is Arsenal.

Again, those transfers don't happen because they don't become possible, not because clubs refrain from them for ethical reasons or the overall good cause of league competition.
That's laughable.

Arsenal wanted Suarez, Chelsea wanted Rooney, ManUtd bought Mata (because it was possible), Chelsae got Cole, City got Nasri etc, Utd got van Persie.
Dortmund got Reus too after they won the league and Reus was the standout player in 4th place Gladbach, and they used his clause.
Don't think you were crying about them weakening their rivals.

Again, if you think La Liga is so much more honourable and balanced why don't you implement a fair TV money distribution system.
Of course mentioning that Real and Barca get 10+ times more money than lower table team is not part of your righteous crusade for league accountability and fairness.

Now again, .... ...

[rwo power]

@Sportsczy

Well, the Bundesliga is a different league in general. Did you know that despite everything the Bundesliga clubs give each other tips and help each other about the best training and logding facilities when they have to travel abroad?

(I very recently stumbled over this info here:

Spoiler:

It's in German, but if you understand German, you will find this intriguing.)

[dostoevsky]

Bayern dominated 89 minutes of their match, playing 70 of those with 10 men, while already being top of their group.

I don't think we dominated 89 minutes. I think after 65-70 minutes up to Schweini coming on we were pinned back, and City were making us feel their numerical advantage.
We managed to pass out of pressure though quite a few times, but we didn't committ enough anymore to finishing those attacks.
We were hanging on to the lead, but it's no coincidence either that individual mistakes like Alonso's and Boateng's would happen under severe pressure.

I felt you suffered a great deal after Lewandowski was removed as well. He removed the direct option in your play out from the back and Neuer rarely moved the ball vertically after his substitution which led to some very awkward moments at the back. I honestly was expecting Shaqiri to come on for Hojberg instead to keep Zabaleta honest and track his forward runs and help to advance the ball up the pitch. As you said, Bayern were on top but this wasn't an entirely one sided game. Even in the first half, particularly for about five minutes after City opened the scoring, they successfully pinned you back at times.

[sportsczy]

This is all fairly wild speculation about whether players truly were attainable or whether there were other factors that influenced the decision to go after alternatives in the market.

It still leaves several points that Hans brought up unanswered however. How does it hurt the league to keep talent in Germany as opposed to if they leave to England or Spain? Why does it help the league as a whole that the big clubs attack the smaller teams but not their direct rivals? Does it improve competition within the league domestically? Does it improve the league's performance in Europe?

Furthermore, I find it odd that of all the supposed transfers, you fixated upon Lewa and Goetze, two situations in which Dortmund were absolutely powerless to do anything to stop the teams going to Bayern when you seem to largely talk about the attitude towards transfers being different in Germany somehow.

Goetze and Lewandowski didn't want to leave Bundi... they both made it clear.  Dortmund was willing to offer the same wages as Bayern.  If Bayern wasn't poaching them, who says they would have left?  Only reason they wanted to leave was because they saw that Dortmund was getting poached and wouldn't be elite as a result.  

Nobody is talking about the financial health of Bundi... you're trying to use a logical fallacy to deflect from the subject Hans.  The point is how you have one superteam, Bayern, that maintains its position by systematically destroying any competitors that come along by poaching their best players.  Happened with Leverkusen in the early 2000s.  Happening with Dortmund now.

The crazy thing is that it didn't used to happen before in Bundi... it's a phenomenon of the past 15 years.  Voeller, Kirsten, Allofs, etc. had more pride than that.  It's just amazing to me that players have so little respect for the clubs that made them.  These transfers are all hostile... it's not like they're amicable, which would be more ok.

[rwo power]

Goetze and Lewandowski didn't want to leave Bundi... they both made it clear. Dortmund was willing to offer the same wages as Bayern.

Do you have any sources for that?

[sportsczy]

Goetze and Lewandowski didn't want to leave Bundi... they both made it clear. Dortmund was willing to offer the same wages as Bayern.

Do you have any sources for that?

Remember Klopp saying that he wasn't losing his best players because of wages... that if he could keep his squad and become quasi-guaranteed of CL, then they could keep them financially.  But if his best players left and the CL revenue became uncertain, it would be a problem and the club would then need to mitigate its risk exposure.  It was during an interview.  I'll see if i can dig it up.  They were talking about the wage demands of Hummels and Reus in the future and the reporter asked him what could cause them to look at other clubs.

[rwo power]

Well, dunno if Aki Watzke would go with that. Ever since they almost went bankrupt, Dortmund are really careful with their money and I really doubt they would risk extending their wage bill to Bayern level if that would endanger the club should they miss the target CL.

[sportsczy]

Not the wage bill overall obviously... but Klopp was talking about keeping his stars and making an effort for them.  

In any case, seems like Bundi fans here are different from everywhere else.  Most bundi fans i know who aren't Bayern fans curse them for their tactics of weakening their direct competition.  If it's not a problem here, so be it.

I know that OM fans would burn managements' and players' homes if they sold/went to PSG.  The few times it has happened, thing have ended very badly for those players...  they were harassed and their careers went down the toilet.  Stopped happening period as a result. You pick a side and you stick with it.

[rwo power]

Well, here only those players get stick that totally declared for one club and then decide to leave for a rival. That's why Mario Götze and Manuel Neuer get booed, while Robert Lewandowski isn't. Same with the Dortmund fans still considering Shinji Kagawa a fan favourite and wanting him back after he left for another club.

Lewandowski and Kagawa never made a secret of the fact that they didn't want to stay at the club forever, so that was accepted. Players like Götze and Neuer, though, are considered a "Judas" by the fans of their home clubs as they first claimed they wanted to stay with the club forever and then suddenly changed mind.

[sportsczy]

You can change your mind... but don't go to Bayern ffs if they're your sworn rival.  If Bayern doesn't get Neuer or Goetze, they would go and get De Gea or some other keeper star internationally or maybe Hazard from Lille at the time.  The league would not suffer since a WC talent would be bought by Bayern even if those guys left Bundi... I don't understand the mentality.

I heard Lewandowski gets harassed all the time btw... even got into fights with Dortmund fans off the pitch i thought.

My problem is that Bayern gets better AND looks to weaken its direct opponents. That's a crap way to do things. It doesn't have to be that way.

[rwo power]

Well, if a player from Köln goes to Leverkusen or Gladbach, it would be worse than if he'd go to Bayern. Actually this makes the situation of Christoph Kramer somewhat delicate. He is currently on loan at Gladbach who are "sworn rivals" of Leverkusen and they want to keep Kramer, while Leverkusen want to keep him, too.

[sportsczy]

it's just different in Bundi i guess... i mean, sworn rivals would never loan each other players in the leagues i follow more closely. To me, Kramer is completely innocent here. He can do what he wants. The clubs made a mess of things in this situation, not him.

[rwo power]

Well, the Bundesliga even tops this with the fact that loaned players are allowed (and even expected) to play against their parent clubs even when they are bitter rivals or compete for the same spot, which would be unheard of for English clubs. As one says - different countries, different customs.

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