Re: Brexit: Should the UK stay or go?

by El Gunner Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:24 pm

I rarely get political, but I hope the result of the EU referendum for those of us who are legitimately concerned about where government is leading humanity has taught us a few things about not only the UK and the EU, but the rest of the world because politics work the same everywhere else. Number one it has to put to rest the incredulous notion that people in power and of higher class are white supremacist/racists. This ideology that wealth, white supremacy and racism go hand-in-hand is severly untrue and a hand played by political parties to get the attention and support of the masses who are on the other side of the class and ethnic scale. Blind following and blind nationalism is a result of this. Resulting in political parties/leaders making promises that will rarely ever be eventuated. Just look at Nigel Farage, the leave campaign promised that money would go to the NHS but when asked today he said there are no plans in motion for this to happen. But most importantly, look at the relationship between remain/leave voters and education. Highly educated and multiethnic regions such as London, Manchester and Cardiff all voted to remain in the EU (I'll leave Scotland out because they had more varied reasons to vote remain). While Little England, the lesser educated and lesser culturally diverse regions overwhelmingly voted in favour of Britain to leave the EU. Could it ever be more obvious that level of education plays a more crucial role in the decisonmaking which creates power dynamics and wealth distribution across the population and this whole fracas leads to xenophobia and racism? This is how people like Farage and Donald Trump gets us. I hope the US and the rest of the world are paying heed.

Important to note that I'm not generalising here, Tom. But I'm talking about majorities.

by DagenhamDave Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:37 pm

I don't know where you are getting this thing about farage promising 350 million to the NHS, he never did, it was vote leaves bus (gove and boris) that used the 350 million figure and they didn't say it would all go to the NHS. farage is not an mp or in power so how can he promise anything, they should have asked that question to Gove or Boris. my area for example is very culturally diverse and overwhelmingly voted leave.

by Grande_Milano Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:38 pm

Congratulations to Sepi. The world "left" establishment was dealt a blow. Short-term economic problems should not hurt too much. Now for other countries to leave "EUSSR" and Trump to win to round up a streak of great events

by CBarca Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:42 pm

Trump congratulating Britain says a lot about this decision, as an American. I mean, as I said, I'm not British so I'm not exactly in the know, but as an American I know to run from anything Trump and his brand of nativism and fascism endorses.

by El Gunner Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:51 pm

DagenhamDave wrote:I don't know where you are getting this thing about farage promising 350 million to the NHS, he never did, it was vote leaves bus (gove and boris) that used the 350 million figure and they didn't say it would all go to the NHS. farage is not an mp or in power so how can he promise anything, they should have asked that question to Gove or Boris. my area for example is very culturally diverse and overwhelmingly voted leave.

The vote leave capmiagn promised this and Farage who is part of it, has now said there's no plans for this.

Even if he directly promised this or not, it doesn't matter. Main thing is this piece of 'misinformation' found its way to the public who are the ones voting.

by Firenze Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:02 pm

looking forward to Boris Johnson and Trump banter as respective leaders of our countries tbh

by DagenhamDave Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:03 pm

no one promised it they said they could use the 350 million on other things such as the NHS, propping up the fishing industry, etc. Farage was a member of grassroots out campaigning independently, if you remember his poster was the line of immigrants that was rightly criticised. he has never been part of vote leave. why do you think boris was annoyed when itv wanted farage and Cameron to debate and not the official vote leave campaign.

vote leave was the other group with gove and Johnson. they never said it would all be pumped into the NHS either.

that is the problem with the remain campaign they were constantly putting words in the leave campaigns mouths. which I feel turned a lot of people to the leave camp, the media bias and bullying by the remainers has been clear.

The main points of this referendum have been about immigration and sovereignty. not the NHS which will be safe. no party that wants to destroy the NHS will be voted in.

by Jay29 Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:08 pm

Firenze wrote:looking forward to Boris Johnson and Trump banter as respective leaders of our countries tbh

Definitely voting Green for the next election now.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:14 pm

So what happens to people working in the UK from different EU countries? Or people studying in the UK from different EU countries?

Or for that matter the millions of UK citizens living in the EU (most of them retirees)?

I understand everything remains the same for 2 years, but I know a lot of people in these situations.

by rwo power Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:33 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:The biggest concern is how democracy can be so dangerous when left to a bunch of retards on either side of any vote who know literally nothing yet can change the world.

Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of government?

Frankly, I usually think it would be beneficial if people first needed to acquire a voters' license or something like that before they could decide on important stuff ^^

by Pedram Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:38 pm

rwo power wrote:
Tomwin Lannister wrote:The biggest concern is how democracy can be so dangerous when left to a bunch of retards on either side of any vote who know literally nothing yet can change the world.
Wasn't it Winston Churchill who said that democracy is the worst form of government?

Frankly, I usually think it would be beneficial if people first needed to acquire a voters' license or something like that before they could decide on important stuff ^^

He also said this too which i think is very true imo.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

by rwo power Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:42 pm

DagenhamDave wrote:no one promised it they said they could use the 350 million on other things such as the NHS, propping up the fishing industry, etc.

I read many comment sections below the articles pro and contra the Brexit, and there were numerous Pro-Brexit posters that actually used the "350 miilion to NHS" line as their main argument, so this obviously has gotten to quite some people and prompted them to vote accordingly.

by DagenhamDave Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:43 pm

Churchill also said "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried".

I personally like Mark Twain, "If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it"

by rwo power Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:48 pm

Well, in this case the voting obviously made some difference - but it appears in a different way than the responsible parties actually thought.

From what I gathered, everybody of the big wigs thought it would be a very narrow remain vote, which would have kept the status quo in general, but which would have destabilized Cameron enough to get rid of him.

It appears that they are not a bit shocked that they have to leave the EU after all.

Oh, SSNHD just said that 95 premier league players would now be without a work permit as they do not meet the requirements. Bye-bye players like Ron-Robert Zieler, Loris Karius, Robert Huth, Emre Can, etc...

by futbol_bill Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:56 pm

I think that now that the UK has decided to leave the EU, Europe should kick all 4 of their teams out of the next Euro!!!!

by rwo power Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:58 pm

futbol_bill wrote:I think that now that the UK has decided to leave the EU, Europe should kick all 4 of their teams out of the next Euro!!!!

UEFA is not the EU

by LeBéninois Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:00 pm

Democracy is not perfect and imo this is a perfect exemple. it's like having 11 kids and 6 of them want to go the beach while the others five want to go to the movies. Let's all go the beach just because 6 > 5 . At the end of the day a country is cut in half.

What country is next ?

by Jay29 Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:03 pm

Oh, SSNHD just said that 95 premier league players would now be without a work permit as they do not meet the requirements. Bye-bye players like Ron-Robert Zieler, Loris Karius, Robert Huth, Emre Can, etc...

This will depend though on when exactly the UK officially leave EU. In the time it takes to leave someone like Emre Can could have played the required 30% of games for Germany to qualify for a work permit.

Also there's the whole special talent visa thing that clubs usually exploit to get non-EU players into the country.

And this is assuming they don't charge the work permit rules again which is entirely possible if the Premier League kicks up enough of a stink about it.

by rwo power Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:13 pm

@Jay29

Problem is if they make an exception for the PL, numerous other industries will want to follow suit, so it might get trickier there.

BTW, I just stumbled over an interesting site that lists the current treaties between the EU and other parties, which would be null and void for the UK once they left. And they said that it won't take long to set up trade deals for the UK on their own...

EU Treaties Office Database: http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreements/SimpleSearch.do

by Lex Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:15 pm

Is this NHS thing any more dishonest than Cameron saying he'd lead the line whatever the vote and would trigger article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, then immediately bowing out like the snake he is?

by Lex Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:16 pm

Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Palau on the short-stay visa waiver (*)

Aw shit, I hope none of you were intent on visiting the Republic of Palau Rice any time soon

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:21 pm

He didn't say he would. Immediately trigger Article 50. And people are saying that whoever replaces him might not want to use Article 50 since it requires unanimous agreement between all member states.

by Jay29 Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:23 pm

rwo power wrote:@Jay29

Problem is if they make an exception for the PL, numerous other industries will want to follow suit, so it might get trickier there.

BTW, I just stumbled over an interesting site that lists the current treaties between the EU and other parties, which would be null and void for the UK once they left. And they said that it won't take long to set up trade deals for the UK on their own...

EU Treaties Office Database: http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreements/SimpleSearch.do

I understand the work permit issue will be a difficult one to resolve across all sectors and industries, but I wouldn't be surprised in the least if there was some form of grace period to ease the impact of losing so many workers in one go.

by CBarca Fri Jun 24, 2016 3:51 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:So what happens to people working in the UK from different EU countries? Or people studying in the UK from different EU countries?

Or for that matter the millions of UK citizens living in the EU (most of them retirees)?

I understand everything remains the same for 2 years, but I know a lot of people in these situations.

Going to quote my main man BC because these are good questions

by Cruijf Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:18 pm

"What is the EU?" Was trending on Google in Britain yesterday Laughing

by Jay29 Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:21 pm

Google reported that there was a sharp increase in the number of "what happens if UK leaves EU" searches Laughing

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