QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:11 pm

He didn't do the dumb thing... which is try to either attack Italy with the short passing game down the middle or by mindlessly crossing the ball. But Low also didn't do the smart thing like a Simeone would do for example.

I personally thought he would go to a 433 or a 442 and take Mueller out for a CM... bring either Ozil or Draxler closer to Gomez. Double pivot isn't smart against Italy obviously. But taking Draxler out for a CB wasn't even in the realm of imagination for me Laughing

But hey, Germany got through. I give credit to the German players, not the manager. If I were German, I would send a fruit basket to Pelle and Zaza too. Makes it easy when you can't hit the target on a pk Laughing

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by urbaNRoots on Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:25 pm

Can you imagine if Italy scored first in the counter attack as they usually do? You would have these legendary armchair managers questioning Löw why he didn't do something as obvious as stopping Italy's counterattacks.

--
Let's be honest, this was Löw's toughest test (thanks to another great manager like Conte), the rest of the defences should be easier to crack.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by dostoevsky on Sun Jul 03, 2016 1:20 pm

This Italy side is a poor counter-attacking team. We're extremely well drilled to repel attacks but the threat we pose on the break has been exaggerated by our performance against Spain. With De Rossi out, our counter attacking mechanisms were even further compromised as he - and Motta, less so - is our only reliable to transition quickly. I cannot emphasise enough how poor Sturaro is on the ball when put under pressure.

I quite happily recognise that Loew completely stifled us but even as the favourites to win a shootout, it's a hell of a gamble to take and any result decided on penalties must be taken with a grain of salt.

Only thing that matters in the end is that Germany went through of course but if the shootout went the other way, wouldn't those same armchair managers have called this a repeat of 2012, sacrificing Germany's greatest strengths in fear of a mouse that roared?
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Adit on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:38 pm

Completely agree with urbanroot.

Low took the safest root and rightfully. If you go behind a team like Italy with a fluke goal then there is no coming back. They are expert bus parkers. The decision to play a 3 center back system was necessary considering the 2 man striker system of Italy and it was proven right by completely nullifying Italy and easily winning the ball back quickly when Italy played long ball forward.

German tactics were spot on considering only team looked like scoring was Germany and Italy looked impotent upfront. The game plan was only ruined by Gerome penalty boeteng. Why this guy always gives away penalty and red card is beyond me.

Low did an Italian job on Italy. His game plan would've been even better if he had two genuine full backs. Kimich and Banter were makeshifts and it showed. It's not lows fault Germany have no quality full backs at both position.

The 4 at back theories are not considering the fluke goal Italy could've scored on the counter with 2 vs2 at the back. Especially Hummels and boeteng both can be turned easily in one on one. If Italy are poor on counter then what exactly are they good at? They definitely weren't good at creating chances with slow build up this tournament.

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:09 pm

it was always going to be that sort of game, when you're germany you really don't need to go for the kill. one of the biggest advantages germany has is their depth, they can look to the bench and bring on players who have some skills left in the tank to execute on offense. however, no manager was out maneuvered or out thought by the other. it went into a shootout.

and in the shootout italy had a chance to go 2 up and fluffed it, germany had the chance to win it and fluffed it. it wasn't a managerial masterclass, germany knew they couldn't make any errors and put out a side that could at least focus on defense. italy's italy, with the kind of offensive players they have, its foolish for them to play any other way but defend and hope for the best

italy shouldn't be disappointed, many people on here,(myself included)  except the italian fans (who were probably just trying to be positive and support their team), questioned their lack of offensive talent, and knew they'd had to grind out wins. they got a bit of luck with the hand of boateng, and that was a good save from gomez' back heel (i really wished he scored that goal)

that said, it went to penalties and even germany were quite disappointing in that. PKs from both teams were atrocious, both goalkeepers were brilliant, and both managers broke even. wasn't some masterstroke or tactical win or none of that. just conservative, a hell of luck, and some comical moments that saw germany get this....germany need to be concerned about their penalty takers in the event they find themselves in another shootout situation
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by dostoevsky on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:29 pm

Adit, I feel like you're misusing the term fluke. Germany could have had an eight man backline, it wouldn't have mattered if Sturaro scored a scissor kick from the halfway line.

What you described, the supposed susceptibility of Boateng and Hummels to being "easily turned" would hardly have been a fluke. I don't accept for a moment that this assertion is true, for the record. They're both amongst the finest central defenders in the game, shielded by a superb team ahead.

How can you so easily dismiss the offensive contribution of his wingbacks? The capacity of these players to produce results on the ball is paramount in any 3-5-2. When Loew instead had the option of fielding Draxler, supported by an overlapping fullback, to take advantage of a defensively suspect Florenzi, whilst also dragging out a midfielder, how does this choice make any sense? @Sportsczy's excellent post detailed the requirements of breaking down a system such as Italy's so I shan't drone on but needless to say, it wasn't something encouraged by Loew's selections. What Germany instead produced was better than anything Italy managed certainly, yet it proved inadequate to win the game in 120 minutes.

I shall say it again, as it apparently needs repeating, that penalties are never a good result. Especially for the best side in the world. The advantage a side has across the length and breadth of the pitch shrivels in a shootout. By failing to end the game prior to penalties, Italy got closer to progression than this team deserved on the basis of their play.

You asked what Italy are good at? Preventing clear cut chances and winning the ball in our own half. We're a very good defensive side. That says nothing however of our ability as a counter-attacking side. Taking the tournament as a whole, our first pass after winning the ball was often sloppy, we won the ball in deep areas which dramatically reduces the potential success of a counter-attack and we failed to support such moves with adequate numbers. We scored goals on the counter during the tournament, yes, but don't mistake us for a strong counter-attacking side. The Spain game was an anomaly in that regard for a number of reasons.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:43 pm

PK shootout is NEVER a good result for the better side.  It's not the worst possible outcome obviously...  but it is a failure nonetheless.  It's not like you have a scrub keeper on Italy.  It's Buffon.  He almost saved that last one too.  You're playing russian roulette by going to a shootout.

If you give it your best and it doesn't work... that's fine. You get days like that. But Germany played just as conservatively as Italy almost. They didn't emphasize their talent advantage at all.

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Lucifer on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:08 pm

@sportsczy wrote:PK shootout is NEVER a good result for the better side.  It's not the worst possible outcome obviously...  but it is a failure nonetheless.  It's not like you have a scrub keeper on Italy.  It's Buffon.  He almost saved that last one too.  You're playing russian roulette by going to a shootout.

If you give it your best and it doesn't work... that's fine. You get days like that. But Germany played just as conservatively as Italy almost. They didn't emphasize their talent advantage at all.

This.
As a neutral ofcourse we wanted Germany to treat it as just another game and play their usual attacking football. They had talent advantage to do it but from German point if view it was not that simple. They were traumatised by Italy in previous tournaments and it's very understandable they went for safety first approach. Let's not forget the fact that the plan was going well until Boateng decided to gift wrap a penalty to Italians
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Luca on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:28 pm

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rincon on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:29 pm

So close Sad
Conte almost crying in his final press conference as coach and everyone applauding him Sad

Pelle should be put on suicide watch after his comments if the match, the man is destroyed. Barzagli too.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rincon on Sun Jul 03, 2016 4:36 pm

This team made me so proud, everyone gave absolutely everything. So much of effort and attention to detail in every play, they won everyone's respect back. With a different draw this would have been the final.

Giaccherini, Florenzi and Parolo put in an absurd amount of heart and effort. Class play from all three. Florenzi was probably the worst if the start not because he was bad but because everyone really stepped up. Parolo had a monstrous tournament, Giacch too. The defense was beasting as expected. De Sciglio finally looked like the Maldini that was promised. And Pelle and Eder actually worked very well up to their quality, particularly happy with Pelle except for the penalty.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Adit on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:17 pm

@dostoevsky wrote:Adit, I feel like you're misusing the term fluke. Germany could have had an eight man backline, it wouldn't have mattered if Sturaro scored a scissor kick from the halfway line.

What you described, the supposed susceptibility of Boateng and Hummels to being "easily turned" would hardly have been a fluke. I don't accept for a moment that this assertion is true, for the record. They're both amongst the finest central defenders in the game, shielded by a superb team ahead.

How can you so easily dismiss the offensive contribution of his wingbacks? The capacity of these players to produce results on the ball is paramount in any 3-5-2. When Loew instead had the option of fielding Draxler, supported by an overlapping fullback, to take advantage of a defensively suspect Florenzi, whilst also dragging out a midfielder, how does this choice make any sense? @Sportsczy's excellent post detailed the requirements of breaking down a system such as Italy's so I shan't drone on but needless to say, it wasn't something encouraged by Loew's selections. What Germany instead produced was better than anything Italy managed certainly, yet it proved inadequate to win the game in 120 minutes.

I shall say it again, as it apparently needs repeating, that penalties are never a good result. Especially for the best side in the world. The advantage a side has across the length and breadth of the pitch shrivels in a shootout. By failing to end the game prior to penalties, Italy got closer to progression than this team deserved on the basis of their play.

You asked what Italy are good at? Preventing clear cut chances and winning the ball in our own half. We're a very good defensive side. That says nothing however of our ability as a counter-attacking side. Taking the tournament as a whole, our first pass after winning the ball was often sloppy, we won the ball in deep areas which dramatically reduces the potential success of a counter-attack and we failed to support such moves with adequate numbers. We scored goals on the counter during the tournament, yes, but don't mistake us for a strong counter-attacking side. The Spain game was an anomaly in that regard for a number of reasons.

Fluke is a wrong word. Probability is probably more apt for the situation. What i was referring to was about the risk management. While Eder and Pelle are of low quality there is more probability of them scoring when it is 2 vs 2 than in a 2 vs 3. A three men back line gave an assurance of numerical superiority,confidence to come out and intercept and simply mark the one of the forward even if he is dragging you to deep into the midfield knowing that there is still 2 at back against the (now) lone forward. We saw that confidence in German back line today and how easily they intercepted everything. This is an important point which is the basis of the 3 man back line argument. Everything else comes secondary.

Hummels and Boeteng arent with out weakness. Hummels isnt the quickest nor is he good at dealing dribblers at space, remember when a 35 year old Cassano turned  him like he didnt exist at the Euro 2012? Even yesterday there was a play when Insigne made a quick direction change which some how made a 4 meter gap between him and Hummels. While we can use fine, top class and one of the best to generally describe players that doesnt make them with out weakness. Boeteng is a red card + Penalty waiting to happen, always has been and he still is. Low gave nothing to chance and put one more CB which essentially destroyed any chance of Italian Counter attacks.

Italy plays alot of long balls to their strikers. Infact i would say that is one of their main attacking move since they have bypassed their midfield through out this tournament. CBs directly and fullbacks when pressured pumps long air balls to Pelle to control which is a prime move of Italy. In such a situation CB has to track the striker means only one CB now behind with one striker. Infact spain got destroyed in this move as their CBs decided to not challenge the forward while receiving long ball and you cant blame them for making sure the numerical superiority. Spain side was begging for Busquets to slot in as a 3rd CB change which never happened.

Fullbacks can overlap Draxler and create danger yes. But this theory has two problems.

1.Which fullback?

Germany have no quality fullbacks, not even real fullbacks let alone quality ones. Kimmich was terrible as a wing back ( a position which has greater freedom to attack) what makes you think he was actually going to be a success as a Fullback? I just cant see it.

2. This means essentially playing a 2 CB system. Reference to the first paragraph.


Low's tactical plan was to minimize any chance of Italy scoring ( which he did tactically except for the unnatural calamity by Boeteng) and to give more chances of Germany scoring (which he did as well, did any one expect Germany to blow Italy out 2-0 or 3-0 ? it was always going to be a one goal margin win at best and there were on the right path until Boeteng happened.


You said it yourself. Italy are only good at defending and they were really good at it so if Germany go behind once there  was no coming back. In such situation you dont go all out attack , its like playing Atletico, you tire them out and then score a goal. Italy was only going to score in a counter attack or a set piece. Low took care of the former while the later happened regardless of tactics.Look at most of the goals Italy scored , either fast break or set piece . That doesnt make you a strong counter attacking side but it makes you a team that can only score during counters or set piece. Now why would i set up a team in a way to prevent a slow possession game against such a team like Italy? Low broke Italy's counter attacking plan ( the only plan they have) by effectively intercepting the long ball to forward in midfield area's while in transition ( the major plan they had) by the use of 3 at back ( giving them numerical superiority and freedom to come out into the midfield whith out worry)

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by M99 on Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:23 pm


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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by urbaNRoots on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:00 pm

You guys keep repeating the penalty argument, but that just doesn't fall on Löw. It doesn't even fall on the team itself, only Boateng. The goal Germany conceded, wasn't a tactical mistake or poor defending from the team - it was an error from one individual alone which no manager can control.

Sure you can say, why did Germany not push for the second goal and that'd be a legit argument if Gomez didn't miss 2-3 minutes later a one-on-one against Buffon. Löw pushed for the second goal while maintaining a brilliant defensive shape. That deserves immense credit.

I've been reading a lot of articles/opinions in German media since last night and thankfully he is getting a lot of credit, you know where it matters. And I wonder why...
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Sushi Master on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Low played some dubious tactics, although everyone knows how Italy plays. He went for the safe route, rode his luck, finally ended up with a "win"... if Germany wins this, no one will remember what crazy shit Low pulled off, just that Germany won. So I guess kudos to him for riding his luck, even if I do not agree with his tactics, which as Sports explained, could have exploited his talents better.

Anyhow, getting your tactics right does NOT mean you will have a successful game or a good result. The players could have gone out whoring the night before, the breakfast might have been spoilt, Podolski might have been introduced and won the game with a heavenly 40 yard piledriver... Who knows? Basically, shit happens.

Low had a (crazy) game plan, it basically payed off more or less, at the suffering of good football, but apart from an insane Boateng maneuver, it could have been finished in 90 minutes and we wouldn't be bitching as much as we are.

So I will give him credit for that, at the very least. I can enjoy him not being Baldiola and having the same frakking game plan game after game because he's just too stubborn.

He still sucks, though.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by sportsczy on Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:44 pm


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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by •MilanDevil• on Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:29 pm

I feel that most of Italy's attacking game was nullified before the game even started. The absence of De Rossi, Motta, and Candreva meant that Italy's only creative outlet during the game was bonucci, this made the transition from defence to attack difficult. Of course, Germany's adaptation to Italy's tactics was also a great move as it also contributed to the absence of Italy's attacks.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by VivaStPauli on Sun Jul 03, 2016 8:06 pm

I actually agree with you guys. Switching to the back three was unneeded, and stifled our offense in a way, that probably hurt us more than the boost to the defense helped.

Ultimately we won, and would've done so within 90 minutes without the Boateng brain fart. But it was still Löws favorite mistake of changing a running system. Germany was working just fine doing it's own thing, being good at it and all. And then Löw tried to adapt. This time it wasn't punished, but it came very close.

Almost the same mistake as in the Semis 2010 and 2012. I'll probably never become a fan.

The team showed great mental fortitude though, especially Boateng, after his absolute blunder, coming back in style with his penalty.

After the celebrations have died down a bit, and I'm suffering less from my massive hangover, I have to admit that I'm a bit gutted for Buffon. Really wanted him to win something, but also kind of don't want it to be a trophy that a team I support could've won.

Incredibly likable guy, and had a great game as well. That save from the Gomez backheel was awesome. And almost always had the right corner on penalties.

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rincon on Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:44 pm

@VivaStPauli wrote:I actually agree with you guys. Switching to the back three was unneeded, and stifled our offense in a way, that probably hurt us more than the boost to the defense helped.

Ultimately we won, and would've done so within 90 minutes without the Boateng brain fart. But it was still Löws favorite mistake of changing a running system. Germany was working just fine doing it's own thing, being good at it and all. And then Löw tried to adapt. This time it wasn't punished, but it came very close.

Almost the same mistake as in the Semis 2010 and 2012. I'll probably never become a fan.

The team showed great mental fortitude though, especially Boateng, after his absolute blunder, coming back in style with his penalty.

After the celebrations have died down a bit, and I'm suffering less from my massive hangover, I have to admit that I'm a bit gutted for Buffon. Really wanted him to win something, but also kind of don't want it to be a trophy that a team I support could've won.

Incredibly likable guy, and had a great game as well. That save from the Gomez backheel was awesome. And almost always had the right corner on penalties.


I'll be putt off football a bit when Buffon reitres. He has always been there since I've been watching football. Basically synonymous with Italian football for me. Didn't get the same feeling from Del Piero or Totti (although Totti cuts it close). It will be strange not starting games 100% confident on the GK for Juve and Italy, and not having a leader there. For Juve no one knows who will play. For Italy it will likely be Perin, Donnarumma could make the jump, but so far I'd pick Perin and be very satisfied, just not the same as Buffon.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by Robespierre on Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:56 pm

Massive disappointment, infact it was my first messagge after yesterday.
First of all , even for me that the club is much more important than NT , must admit that the charm created from NT is peerpless, and you get it , melancholically, just when it 's ended.
Yesterday watched on a giant screen at sqadre, whole masses to support for same thing, suffer and opine with ppl never seen before. A pleasent commonality, and the summer climate contribuites to make it further pleasant ( World Cup -- In Winter -- -In Qatar ... are you serious ?? )
Besides when it happens for matches against Germany , France and Spain ( in order of prefence, my favourite matches when there is Italy ) it's even more beautiful .. it's the reason why I prefer Euro to WC, for me it's more exciting to play against your neighbours tbh.

About the match , I believe it was very good.
It was a great , despite different, show of force from both the NTs.
Definitely a great mental soundness (despite the Boateng suicide .. ) from both the NTs, and it's the reason why it lasted 120' and penalty kicks towards the 9th series.
You never had idea who could win yesterday imo , even the penalty kicks were conducted in total uncertainty.
On the other hand the mental soundness was or manin quality so far, and it was created by Conte , basically from zero, because we played a crap WC exactly for the oppiste reason , and it happens when you should be a team built arond to Mario Balotelli.
Goallegacy is the main source of Low hatred in the world, probably it's the place where Low is more denigrated - and I agree often about it - but yesterday didn't make bad mistakes imo , maybe I should say something about Scweinsteiger - incredibly declined .. Wasn't it better Emre Can ? But his influence for Germany is comparable with Totti in Roma smoking Even the captain strip
I drank more 'beers than usual yesterday and most of them , for a mocking destiny, were German.
Anyway congrats to German and good luck for the tournament, at the end the most quality team won it, despite I think we weren't so inferior for 120' minutes.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by titosantill on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:27 pm

@rincon, it makes sense...buffon is a bigger legend for the italian team than totti and del piero. whilst italy have missed quality players in the mold of del piero and totti, neither had that moment in the sun for the italian team. del piero stopped being a main sure starter after euro 00, and even lost his nos 10 jersey to totti. totti too never had a major stand out moment for italy, maybe that penalty against holland (he didn't do a pelle and tell van der sar he'd chip it ). of the three buffon has definitely been the bigger legend and better leader for their national team imo


Last edited by titosantill on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by RealGunner on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:30 pm

Thoughts on Zaza's penalty Robes?
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rincon on Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:31 pm

@tito

All true, but I wasnt just talking about the national team, I was talking about Italian football in general. Totti and Del Piero are absolute legends in Serie A. Totti more than Del Piero and Buffon for me, but with Buffon's legacy in the NT its what puts him above the rest for me.
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rwo power on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:14 am

@rincon

I think Gigi Buffon is immortal. I hope he'll still be there at least in the next two big tournaments!

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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rincon on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:37 am

he has said that 2018 will be his last sadly
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Re: QF: Germany vs Italy (July 2nd)

Post by rwo power on Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:49 am

Well, then he'll have reached the age of the venerable Dino Zoff at the World Cup 1982.

I would still hope for him to reconsider, although I think that with Mattia Perin and Gianluigi Donnarumma (who definitely has the fitting first name) you have two very interesting young goalies coming up after him.

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