Re: Turkey and Erdogan Watch

by futbol Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:40 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Yeah like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of Turkey. Western powers should be doing everything they can to support democracies, even ones in which institutions are not particularly strong like in Turkey.

Democracy isn't worth a dime in countries like Turkey where half the population lives in rural areas, dropped out of school after elementary school, herds sheeps for a living, can't spell its own name and is hardcore religious because that's all they've got in life.

by Robespierre Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:32 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:I didn't support the idea of a coup, or killing civilians. I said when I heard of the coup, I hoped it was Kemalites, and that they'd be successful, because that would mean no civil war, and Kemalites succeeding in a coup would mean free elections soon after.

Same thought too . And they 'd have written new costituion before of free elections because this is the process around every Turkish coup . specifically ,the writing new costitution meant , in this case, removing that ' violated order ' under Erdogan , for a Turkey mostly democratic -and expecially - secular. When Turkey militaries move on it is always for it.
We have passed under Erdogan from a country where you can't flaunt religious symbol in in public places (for example, the chador ) to a country where you can do it if they are Islamic symbols BUT not for other religions (for example,having a wear a crucifix )
Now Erdogan already removed 300 judges and he is going to talk for the penalty death .. the penalty death in 2000s .....That's enough to describe the character. He can show entirely his authoritarian nature because he feels to have every legitimacy to do it now.
At least we shouldn't read " #prayforErdogan" on social newtorks or comparisons ( over the heretic ) with Allende...

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:20 pm

futbol wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Yeah like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of Turkey. Western powers should be doing everything they can to support democracies, even ones in which institutions are not particularly strong like in Turkey.

Democracy isn't worth a dime in countries like Turkey where half the population lives in rural areas, dropped out of school after elementary school, herds sheeps for a living, can't spell its own name and is hardcore religious because that's all they've got in life.

And what has years of the west toppling democracies for dictators left us with? Consider the alternative. Democracies with weak institutions are bad, I agree, but they are far better than dictatorships or a military junta who have terrible records as far as human rights go. At least with democracies there is planned alternation and a chance that countries can evolve past populism.

by FennecFox7 Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:34 pm

futbol wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Yeah like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of Turkey. Western powers should be doing everything they can to support democracies, even ones in which institutions are not particularly strong like in Turkey.

Democracy isn't worth a dime in countries like Turkey where half the population lives in rural areas, dropped out of school after elementary school, herds sheeps for a living, can't spell its own name and is hardcore religious because that's all they've got in life.

This has to be the dumbest post in this thread. Wow.

by Lucifer Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:45 pm

futbol wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Yeah like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of Turkey. Western powers should be doing everything they can to support democracies, even ones in which institutions are not particularly strong like in Turkey.

Democracy isn't worth a dime in countries like Turkey where half the population lives in rural areas, dropped out of school after elementary school, herds sheeps for a living, can't spell its own name and is hardcore religious because that's all they've got in life.

When India became independent our literacy rate was 17%. There was huge riot between Hindus and Muslims killing almost million people. The country was partitioned, lots of refugees from both sides were crossing borders daily leading to riots on daily basis. We were not able to feed our people we had to export lowest quality Wheat everyday frrom America for decade for vast population. Industries were broken due to no capital. And all other horrific economic and social factors were at play yet we overcame almost all of them and I believe democracy helped us achieve that. Without democracy I don't think we would have able to stand on our feets.

by zigra Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:02 pm

Personally I'd consider Turkey as an electoral authoritarianism, not really a democracy.

If you can be a democracy while brutally opressing (your own) minorities it's not worth a dime.

by FennecFox7 Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:14 pm

All of a sudden turkey is doing very well on its own economically as a Muslim country without any dependence on oil or whatever and the west is shitting their pants.

By no means am I for a religious government but let's be honest. There's a fair amount of people here that would like nothing more then to see every Arabic and Muslim country stay a third world haven. Racism at its finest. Note; this is not all of you, but I have my doubts after reading this thread

I don't agree with it either, but it's a democracy. And the people elected ergodan into power, so stop whining. The important thing is that it's a legitimate election with a legitimate leader, even though he is a bit of an asshole. Overthrowing a government that is elected by the people? Lol. Wouldn't be surprised if Israel was involved in this.

by Tomwin Lannister Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:18 pm

Give me 3 lads, 2 muskets and a bowie knife and i'll orchestrate a better coup than this ass attempt.

by BarrileteCosmico Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:23 pm

zigra wrote:Personally I'd consider Turkey as an electoral authoritarianism, not really a democracy.

If you can be a democracy while brutally opressing (your own) minorities it's not worth a dime.

And you think a dictatorship would be any different? The difference is that right now he can be voted out, whereas in a dictatorship it would take force to do so

by FennecFox7 Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:24 pm

@futbol, it's pretty crazy how a country with "goat herders" and "elementary level education" has almost a 100% literacy rate and is in the top 20 countries nominal gdp wise. Looks like you haven't been to turkey, but considering how stupid you are in most of your posts anyways, I wouldn't put it past you.

by zigra Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:21 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
zigra wrote:Personally I'd consider Turkey as an electoral authoritarianism, not really a democracy.

If you can be a democracy while brutally opressing (your own) minorities it's not worth a dime.
And you think a dictatorship would be any different? The difference is that right now he can be voted out, whereas in a dictatorship it would take force to do so

No, that's not what I think. A dictatorship is bad in itself. It can never be good, not even if the person in charge is a "good" human being.
My problem is that in pseudo-democratic systems a majority can very easily not only oppress minorities but even feel like it's completely right and ok because it's a "democratic decision" to do so.

In the end though tyranny by a majority is the same as a tyranny by a minority.

Btw this is a general problem of real-life-democracies as it happens in every country to some degree and some western countries are deeply troubling aswell.. the idea that anything is ok as long as a majority is in favour of it is just flat out wrong but very popular. The situation in Turkey is obviously very extreme though and just makes it very, very hard for me to consider it an actual democracy. I already have my problems calling a lot "better" set-up countries democracies. I do think we tend to "overrate" most countries so we can feel better.

As said I obviously don't want a dictator to replace Erdogan. But I'm not going to be positive about the current situation just because there are worse alternatives.

FennecFox7 wrote:All of a sudden turkey is doing very well on its own economically as a Muslim country without any dependence on oil or whatever and the west is shitting their pants.

By no means am I for a religious government but let's be honest. There's a fair amount of people here that would like nothing more then to see every Arabic and Muslim country stay a third world haven. Racism at its finest. Note; this is not all of you, but I have my doubts after reading this thread

I agree there's a lot hidden and open racism (on here, everywhere tbh) and futbols comment is out of order, but

Wouldn't be surprised if Israel was involved in this.

gtfo aswell Wink

by futbol Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:06 am

FennecFox7 wrote:All of a sudden turkey is doing very well on its own economically as a Muslim country without any dependence on oil or whatever and the west is shitting their pants.

By no means am I for a religious government but let's be honest. There's a fair amount of people here that would like nothing more then to see every Arabic and Muslim country stay a third world haven. Racism at its finest. Note; this is not all of you, but I have my doubts after reading this thread

I don't agree with it either, but it's a democracy. And the people elected ergodan into power, so stop whining. The important thing is that it's a legitimate election with a legitimate leader, even though he is a bit of an asshole. Overthrowing a government that is elected by the people? Lol. Wouldn't be surprised if Israel was involved in this.

Turkey isn't doing well at all, it's a big scam. Turkey will be another Greece sooner or later. Turkey didn't suddenly start to produce worthwhile goods through scientific and industrial development. The country still lives from agriculture, textile and tourism. The only thing Erdogan did was to sell the country to foreign investors through privatisation. Example? The biggest telecommunications company of the country belongs to some Saudi group now, the harbor of Mersin belongs to some Singapur group etc. That's the only thing that brought an influx of money into the country but it won't be ever-lasting. You can only sell so much.

In Turkey literally everyone is in huge debt. The private household debt has risen from 50 billion Lira to 900 billion Lira in the last decade. Everyone in Turkey has a credit card and the whole thing will collapse one day. An economy can't be sustained through privatisation and consumption by debt. Turkey doesn't produce anything. Where does this sudden wealth come from?

If you stopped being a muppet who sees racism everywhere and just educated yourself you would be better off. "Looks like you haven't been to Turkey". rofl

I'm in Turkey every year and even speak the language fluently, you muppet. Laughing

I never speak about stuff I'm not knowledgeable about.

by Lex Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:54 am

Did someone just say Turkey is doing well? rofl

by Unique Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:07 am

the people that did this and got captured can forget about the Geneva convention. that no longer exists

by BarrileteCosmico Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:47 am

zigra wrote:
BarrileteCosmico wrote:
zigra wrote:Personally I'd consider Turkey as an electoral authoritarianism, not really a democracy.

If you can be a democracy while brutally opressing (your own) minorities it's not worth a dime.
And you think a dictatorship would be any different? The difference is that right now he can be voted out, whereas in a dictatorship it would take force to do so

No, that's not what I think. A dictatorship is bad in itself. It can never be good, not even if the person in charge is a "good" human being.
My problem is that in pseudo-democratic systems a majority can very easily not only oppress minorities but even feel like it's completely right and ok because it's a "democratic decision" to do so.

In the end though tyranny by a majority is the same as a tyranny by a minority.

Btw this is a general problem of real-life-democracies as it happens in every country to some degree and some western countries are deeply troubling aswell.. the idea that anything is ok as long as a majority is in favour of it is just flat out wrong but very popular. The situation in Turkey is obviously very extreme though and just makes it very, very hard for me to consider it an actual democracy. I already have my problems calling a lot "better" set-up countries democracies. I do think we tend to "overrate" most countries so we can feel better.

As said I obviously don't want a dictator to replace Erdogan. But I'm not going to be positive about the current situation just because there are worse alternatives.

Yes this is a problem with all democracies, which is why democracies with strong institutions have multi-layered protections for minorities. The work of the west should be to ensure strengthen these institutions and improve them.

by FennecFox7 Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:01 pm

You just contradicted yourself, clearly they are benefiting from privatization, and yet you say they still rely on the same stuff. It won't last, that's definitely true, but you have no idea if Erdogan will switch to something else. That's seriously a smart move by him, especially considering how his country was before.

You do realize that people maxing their credit cards has nothing to do with the government, that's the people's problem. People in Greece get *bleep* up and party everyday, which is fine except a pretty good amount of them are lazy *bleep*. not exactly a problem turkey has.

95%> literacy rate and you argue that they're goat herders because you visit turkey and you speak the language. Thanks for proving you're even more of an idiot then I thought? Most people are clearly happy with him as proven in the election, dumbass. But hey, let's topple him because "I'm from the west and I don't approve"

by Cruijf Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:28 pm

futbol wrote:I never speak about stuff I'm not knowledgeable about.

Turkey and Erdogan Watch - Page 5 59_mSs

by RealGunner Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:45 pm

"Turkey has arrested 6,000 people after a failed coup, with President Erdogan vowing to purge state bodies of the "virus" that caused the revolt."

Reports of torture coming out too.

Doubt any of them will ever get out of prison. That is if they aren't executed.

by guest_07 Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:44 am

RealGunner wrote:"Turkey has arrested 6,000 people after a failed coup, with President Erdogan vowing to purge state bodies of the "virus" that caused the revolt."

Reports of torture coming out too.

Doubt any of them will ever get out of prison. That is if they aren't executed.

traitor is one of the biggest sin for a country

but i only agree if only the leader & its gang that involved in the massacre of the civilian been executed

by RealGunner Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:19 pm

The number of individuals who been purged in Turkey after the coup attempt reaches 45000+.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnvJ2T1WEAAqzn8.jpg

Political cleansing

by zigra Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:37 pm

So 20k from the group of judges, university deans and people from the education ministry.. he's not even trying the least to hide it.

by Art Morte Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:48 pm

The fact this has happened so fast means that those lists were ready.

Almost 3000 judges dismissed. I wonder who are going to replace them... Must be great for independent justice system. Surely not hard core islamists, favored by Erdogan, are going to get all these posts... Rolling Eyes

Inbe4 they start chopping off people's hands for thieving.

by LeBéninois Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:35 pm

Imo it was staged or they knew a coup was in preparation and they made sure it happens but also fails. From the few informations I know :

1- The President was out of the country.

2- They started the coup too early when people were still up. Usually a coup is done around 4-5h am.

3- The whole thing about the president calling a TV news as if the military are dumb and didn't know they shoul have blocked the media. Then again if the coup was done around 04-05am the TV station should have been close and the president sleeping.

4- The military asked their supporters to stay HOME while the president asked his to go out so the only ones out were against the coup.

5- The huge number of people about to die or rot in prison ( A purge ) .

by Pedram Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:40 pm

We're witnessing the birth of a dictatorship.

by rwo power Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:43 pm

Yeah. It looks as it Erdogan took quite some inspiration from the rise of Hitler in Nazi Germany.

by titosantill Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:57 pm

those numbers are way too large to classify as some sort of coup plot. if 15,200 people from the education ministry and 2745 judges not to mention all the other members of the public staff, are aware of a coup plot and are part of it, i'm not sure if it can be classified a coup. a coup's done in secret, you don't need 15,000 members of the private sector (who probably have wives and girlfriends) to assist you in anyway, shape or form in the execution of a coup. it will be too damn public. what do professors know about plotting a coup? something isn't right

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