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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:11 pm

Almost too incensed to talk about Vicente's call ups this time.

I know he's contracted Lippilism but this is just...

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:21 pm

Arquitescu wrote:Almost too incensed to talk about Vicente's call ups this time.

I know he's contracted Lippilism but this is just...


Saying that he is doing what Lippi did in WC 2010 is grossly exaggerating. Who all from the current squad would you have dropped and who all would you have taken instead?

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Post by Arquitecto on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:29 pm

Out of long-standing respect for you JD, I'll type up a proper response when I'm not typing on a touchscreen or while half asleep, tomorrow.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:39 pm

Arquitescu wrote:Out of long-standing respect for you JD, I'll type up a proper response when I'm not typing on a touchscreen or while half asleep, tomorrow.


Immense thanks for that. The feelings are mutual.

See what I am essentially saying is that we could of course debate that a few of VDB's selections could have been different but that's the case with pretty much every other coach at WC 2014. Yes the level of the Spain national team as a whole is coming down but there isn't too much he can do too quickly. He has to retain the dynamic and the core as before. Else a lot more time would be needed to build things afresh for which we don't have time now. Let's also not forget that at times in the past when we thought they were jaded and stale they surprised us. I am not saying they will do so again this time but I feel that for being able to prove us wrong and achieving so much success doing things their way VDB and his team deserve a lot more respect than they get. Lippi's case was completely different in that half his squad of WC 2010 had no business being at a world cup. VDB is far too balanced and sensible a man to go that route but he also cannot change things as quickly as the fans want. If he does not change and loses he will be blamed. If he changes and loses then also he will be blamed. In the present circumstances winning is anyway very difficult. So he may as well do things his way than listen to us. That's essentially what I am trying to say here. I respect the man much more than most at this forum do. Which coach has won a world cup, a Euro, a UCL and a major league title? On top of that his behaviour and conduct in every way is exemplary and if you read about his background you will find out that he was born of an idealistic father and as a result of that core human values are ingrained into his blood stream.

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Post by Valkyrja on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:48 pm

Spain need new blood. I think by WC 2016 the squad will be very much different.

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Post by messixaviesta on Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:50 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:Spain need new blood. I think by WC 2016 the squad will be very much different.


I suppose you mean Euro 2016. Yes it should be and maybe VDB has stayed long enough and done everything he could and it's time to make way for a younger man. However WC 2014 is the swan song of the golden generation and they can't just be cast to the bin before that happens.

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Post by Valkyrja on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:36 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
@Valkyrja wrote:Spain need new blood. I think by WC 2016 the squad will be very much different.


I suppose you mean Euro 2016. Yes it should be and maybe VDB has stayed long enough and done everything he could and it's time to make way for a younger man. However WC 2014 is the swan song of the golden generation and they can't just be cast to the bin before that happens.


Sorry  Laughing

The likes of Jese, Thiago, Isco have to take over

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Post by Gil on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:09 pm

Jese, Thiago are both injured. Deulofeu is still a scrub and Isco shouldn't be anywhere near the team. Can't believe people are moaning about the squad.
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Post by Robespierre on Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:43 am

All talk about Navas but you are forgetting Callejon , the Napoli player was the best Spanish right winger this year.
Callejon scored 15 goals in Serie A this year  but Deulofeu was preferred to him .
Ridicolous choice by Del Bosque.
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Post by futbol on Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:47 am

It will be easy to blame del Bosque if Spain don't win. Although if they don't win it will be because it's incredibly difficult to win EC-WC-EC-WC and not because of del Bosque's decisions.

Arqy will explain tomorrow in lengthy detail why a bunch of Basque scrubs like Llorente, Muniain, Ander, Iturraspe etc. should have been nominated and how that would have saved Spain but let's be real. Apart from Mata and Albiol the entire team is literally undroppable based on quality, merit, system understanding, chemistry and dressing room influence and even then it's not as if he left out proven world class talent. Obviously Torres is very much exchangeable but he seems to be well liked in the dressing room and he has past merits for the national team so there we go. He won't play much anyway. It's Costa and Fabregas who will play upfront. Laughing

The relevant 13 that will play 90 % of the tournament will be:

Casillas
Azpi Pique Ramos Alba
Busquets Alonso
Silva/Pedro Xavi Iniesta
Costa/Cesc

Nothing wrong with that.

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Post by Kick on Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:10 am

@halamadrid2 wrote: is Deulofeu doing there scratch

Reminds me of last season when Montoya was called up despite being on the bench for Barca

VDB rofl
@Ganso wrote:that amazing wingplay with Iniesta and Pedro Proud could only get better if Torres or Cesc start


thank Navas got left out


Since neither of you have learned that Profanity is not allowed, -25% to both.

I do not want to see any more cursing in this thread.

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Post by Art Morte on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:50 am

So is Navas injured or not? Someone said a couple pages back he is. Should be in the team if he's fit.
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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:58 am

Fußball wrote:It will be easy to blame del Bosque if Spain don't win. Although if they don't win it will be because it's incredibly difficult to win EC-WC-EC-WC and not because of del Bosque's decisions.

Arqy will explain tomorrow in lengthy detail why a bunch of Basque scrubs like Llorente, Muniain, Ander, Iturraspe etc. should have been nominated and how that would have saved Spain but let's be real. Apart from Mata and Albiol the entire team is literally undroppable based on quality, merit, system understanding, chemistry and dressing room influence and even then it's not as if he left out proven world class talent. Obviously Torres is very much exchangeable but he seems to be well liked in the dressing room and he has past merits for the national team so there we go. He won't play much anyway. It's Costa and Fabregas who will play upfront. Laughing

The relevant 13 that will play 90 % of the tournament will be:

Casillas
Azpi Pique Ramos Alba
Busquets Alonso
Silva/Pedro Xavi Iniesta
Costa/Cesc

Nothing wrong with that.


Largely I agree with you. I cannot accept people blaming Del Bosque no matter what happens because in the past he has won big without listening to us. If he had listened to us and lost would we have praised him? He is not doing anything insane, just exercising his right to choose which every coach in the world has. Given how much he has achieved he has completely earned the right to do things his way.

You made two crucial points. One is that it's almost impossible to continue that kind of winning cycle. The other even more important one is that most of these players are undroppable. Actually even Mata is undroppable given his talent. Also it's worth noting that unlike Italy 2010 most of our players are not in their late 30s. We still have a lot of young players in their prime in this squad.

One or two things we could argue could be changed though. Llorente in place of Torres might have been a good idea since he gives a different dimension. Navas I am not so sure about because in a crucial game for ManCity I saw him being so ineffective that James Milner replaced him and played much better than him. This season based on whatever I have seen he hasn't impressed. He could have been there and could make an impact but the big question is who do we drop. Overall though there is very little that can be changed here. The key here is that Spain's best hope is to stick to the dynamic that has served us for so long. Whether it works or doesn't in such a short time it's not possible to do something very different and even if that was done it's unlikely it would be very successful.

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Post by Valkyrja on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:53 am

@Gil wrote:Jese, Thiago are both injured. Deulofeu is still a scrub and Isco shouldn't be anywhere near the team. Can't believe people are moaning about the squad.


we were talking about euro 2016.

The squad is good. A winger instead of Mata/Cazorla and it would have been perfect for me.

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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:59 am

@Robespierre wrote:All talk about Navas but you are forgetting Callejon , the Napoli player was the best Spanish right winger this year.
Callejon scored 15 goals in Serie A this year  but Deulofeu was preferred to him .
Ridicolous choice by Del Bosque.

Callejon is so average on the ball, its irrelevant what kind of season he is having.

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Post by Robespierre on Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:24 pm

@The Franchise wrote:
@Robespierre wrote:All talk about Navas but you are forgetting Callejon , the Napoli player was the best Spanish right winger this year.
Callejon scored 15 goals in Serie A this year  but Deulofeu was preferred to him .
Ridicolous choice by Del Bosque.

Callejon is so average on the ball, its irrelevant what kind of season he is having.



he is basically a player very concrete ( pragmatic) , but I think it  is also merit. although I imagine Spain wants some specific standards. but at the time that you call a backup of Everton the doubts about the the fairness of this choice increase .
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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:55 pm

He may be a back up at Everton, but thats just a superficial look at him to say the least.

He is one of the most talented players of his age group in the world and has great potential.

While nowhere near the finished, polished product..he has elements to his game someone like Callejon never will have.
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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:23 pm

@Valkyrja wrote:
The squad is good. A winger instead of Mata/Cazorla and it would have been perfect for me.


Yes perhaps. The problem is both those are very talented players who in terms of consistency and ability would rate higher than Navas. Only because we are saturated in midfield we may have had to take such a decision. Before WC 2010 Cazorla was I think less fit and out of form. Before Euro 2012 David Villa was injured. This time no one is out which is a mixed blessing because it means hardly any openings. Still I do agree that width is helpful and although VDB is relying on Pedro for that Navas may have been useful. Apart from that Llorente could have given us the physical hold the ball dimension. Maybe due to Diego Costa coming in VDB is banking on him and feeling there won't be any need for Llorente. Pedro for all his criticism somehow usually plays well for Spain. These are some minor debates that we could have but then which squad is not debatable. VDBs selection is far from blasphemous.

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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:26 pm

Players like Deulofeu are mainly called to encourage them and give them a feel of the environment for the future. 99% they of course get cut. Alleging favouritism for just that is taking things too far.


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Post by Arquitecto on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:23 pm

@messixaviesta wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Out of long-standing respect for you JD, I'll type up a proper response when I'm not typing on a touchscreen or while half asleep, tomorrow.


Immense thanks for that. The feelings are mutual.

See what I am essentially saying is that we could of course debate that a few of VDB's selections could have been different but that's the case with pretty much every other coach at WC 2014. Yes the level of the Spain national team as a whole is coming down but there isn't too much he can do too quickly. He has to retain the dynamic and the core as before. Else a lot more time would be needed to build things afresh for which we don't have time now. Let's also not forget that at times in the past when we thought they were jaded and stale they surprised us. I am not saying they will do so again this time but I feel that for being able to prove us wrong and achieving so much success doing things their way VDB and his team deserve a lot more respect than they get. Lippi's case was completely different in that half his squad of WC 2010 had no business being at a world cup. VDB is far too balanced and sensible a man to go that route but he also cannot change things as quickly as the fans want. If he does not change and loses he will be blamed. If he changes and loses then also he will be blamed. In the present circumstances winning is anyway very difficult. So he may as well do things his way than listen to us. That's essentially what I am trying to say here. I respect the man much more than most at this forum do. Which coach has won a world cup, a Euro, a UCL and a major league title? On top of that his behaviour and conduct in every way is exemplary and if you read about his background you will find out that he was born of an idealistic father and as a result of that core human values are ingrained into his blood stream.


Thank you, my friend.

Before I start, Vicente Del Bosque is my favourite manager in the world and whom I feel is the best in world football as never I would question the man himself and what made him the deity he is to us.

When it comes to my favourite managers, they will be on the platform of the most criticism from me considering how much time I invest in deducting their choices and decisions.

We have won it all as you know, yet post Euro 2012 (the tourney the sign of needed change) España have been on a subtle decline.

International teams have increasingly figured out how to thwart us through examples set by Prandelli, Sampioli, Igesund, Jorge Luis Pinto and club teams whom have formed an increasingly comprehensive plan to render our possession based system, less effective. Why and how?

The core team arguably after peaking in 2012, is not functioning the same way.

Whether Xavi or Pique or most of our cup winning veterans, they have lost either that desire present pre-2010 than had us win in South Africa or the incremental changes in their respective clubs (to which complimented each other rather than being a simple tactical variable) have not caused Del Bosque to evolve upon them, rather we are stagnant. Just like Barcelona post-Pep, gone is the pressing, the zonal movement off the ball, the intensity, the flair... the insito. Pre-Confed Cup was merely a sign yet our performances versus Italia and that horrorshow versus Brazil was not just due to the humidity and the insignificance of the Confederations Cup. Our cycle has reached past its stage as the players exerting their final embers in the tank will not be enough for the 2014 WC.

Del Bosque infuriates in the sense that he only scouts THREE clubs exclusively (well documented) which are Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid, with the exception of an occasional trip for Sevilla (given he lives right next to the city). Other players in different clubs are exclusively scouted by Grande (whom VDB has implicit trust in). Difference is, when it comes to their use he does not use them for their strengths, only relying on a football catalyst past its cycle and without a tactical variance. Implementation of Xabi again is welcome given how tactically important he is yet our midfield is frequently overrun and dominated on the counter considering the base football has been stripped down into the basics, without ANY changes if it does not work.

Vicente's lack of adaptation and faith in his old guard is costing us.

What do I mean by Lippilism? It is a term coined humorously by Mole meaning that Del Bosque will hold onto the guard whom won him everything even if it means they are not the players they were in their halcyon days.

Del Bosque like Lippi, staunchly believes in team dressing room spirit even at the cost of the implementation of a new breed. His premise is correct yet in my opinion there must be a balance struct and he has without a doubt succumbed to the politics which all his predecessors do in choosing a very concentrated contingent of players only from the 3 named clubs, despite individuals performing better in other ones.

How in the world has the arrogant Fernando Torres (who has been utter shit since Euro 2008) get ahead of a far more superior duo in Alvaro Negredo and Fernando Llorente? You may say chemistry yet each and every time both have shown they add a better and more effective dimension than Torres, Llorente especially given his complete skill-set and ambidexrity (something our line screams).

Yes, we do not play centre-forwards and Fabregas for all his consistent excellent for us is limiting us given that we now need to resort back to a reference point to which the players can centre around. Half the players lack a clear role, which is needed considering the timeworn play calling for dynamism and more versatility.

How is Pique continuing to start considering since 2010 he has been a shadow of himself club and country? Considering Íñigo has been better and shown what he can provide in his cap versus Ecuador.

Juanfran is a painfully average right-back whose been chosen over better performers in Iraola and Carvajal.

Alba whose been a pure liability, is exempt considering his excellent form in Barca's final third of the season.

Yet in the midfield Busquets is not performing his role whereas Xavi has been a shadow post-2012 and our front midfield seems to be picked by names than results. Names like David Silva, Mata and Koke who never have performed (bar infrequent exceptions by Silva) continue to be called up.

And then you have Diego Costa who ISN'T Spanish and directly contradicts Vicente's code of conduct (unlike the model professional Senna) by his vile thuggery and theatrics. Quite frankly, it may have been his first appearance but he was absolute dross versus Italia and clearly did not fit in considering he cannot handle such a system on the ball.

This does not reflect on how I view the players yet a bigger point.

Just like this country, España does not believe in merit yet delves purely into seniority, experience, and narrowing the factors down as much as possible as shortcuts, all the opposites of what us Basques believe. My problem with Del Bosque goes beyond my usual call for the new dominant breed of the country in Basques or individual players scouted for what they can add and their performances compared to their national counterparts. Yet merit is not something rewarded within course of Vincente's experimentation and that has been a constant since the world cup.

Exceptions apply such as Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Ramos etc whom no matter what club form, they always turn it up for España.

Yet there is no way to break into this system outside if you show intangible traits to which no player has yet figured out and despite the results, the tactics are a serious ticking timb bomb to which will be exploited on the stage such as the world cup. In there you have a handful of names whom continue to make the squad despite not even fitting in within the system itself; political reasons must also be mentioned.

Yes like Italia, España turn it up during these stages yet we are resting on a cycle to which has not been invigorated as needed and it may just cost us in the future.

Where I stop is simply on the fact that it IS Vicente Del Bosque managing us, and hopefully he proves me wrong yet questions must be raised.

Also, an absolute honour that you continue to support España.

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Post by Arquitecto on Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:29 pm

Fußball wrote:It will be easy to blame del Bosque if Spain don't win. Although if they don't win it will be because it's incredibly difficult to win EC-WC-EC-WC and not because of del Bosque's decisions.

Arqy will explain tomorrow in lengthy detail why a bunch of Basque scrubs like Llorente, Muniain, Ander, Iturraspe etc. should have been nominated and how that would have saved Spain but let's be real. Apart from Mata and Albiol the entire team is literally undroppable based on quality, merit, system understanding, chemistry and dressing room influence and even then it's not as if he left out proven world class talent. Obviously Torres is very much exchangeable but he seems to be well liked in the dressing room and he has past merits for the national team so there we go. He won't play much anyway. It's Costa and Fabregas who will play upfront. Laughing

The relevant 13 that will play 90 % of the tournament will be:

Casillas
Azpi Pique Ramos Alba
Busquets Alonso
Silva/Pedro Xavi Iniesta
Costa/Cesc

Nothing wrong with that.


Not true at all, I just think this should be the formation:

       Iker
Iraola-Ramos-Íñigo-Azpilicueta

       Arteta-Xabi
Prieto-Ander-Muniain
           Llorente

Subs: Susaeta, De Marcos, Vela.



See? Only 1 player who is non-Basque and not ALL like you thought I would plead for.

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Post by messixaviesta on Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:06 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
@messixaviesta wrote:
Arquitescu wrote:Out of long-standing respect for you JD, I'll type up a proper response when I'm not typing on a touchscreen or while half asleep, tomorrow.


Immense thanks for that. The feelings are mutual.

See what I am essentially saying is that we could of course debate that a few of VDB's selections could have been different but that's the case with pretty much every other coach at WC 2014. Yes the level of the Spain national team as a whole is coming down but there isn't too much he can do too quickly. He has to retain the dynamic and the core as before. Else a lot more time would be needed to build things afresh for which we don't have time now. Let's also not forget that at times in the past when we thought they were jaded and stale they surprised us. I am not saying they will do so again this time but I feel that for being able to prove us wrong and achieving so much success doing things their way VDB and his team deserve a lot more respect than they get. Lippi's case was completely different in that half his squad of WC 2010 had no business being at a world cup. VDB is far too balanced and sensible a man to go that route but he also cannot change things as quickly as the fans want. If he does not change and loses he will be blamed. If he changes and loses then also he will be blamed. In the present circumstances winning is anyway very difficult. So he may as well do things his way than listen to us. That's essentially what I am trying to say here. I respect the man much more than most at this forum do. Which coach has won a world cup, a Euro, a UCL and a major league title? On top of that his behaviour and conduct in every way is exemplary and if you read about his background you will find out that he was born of an idealistic father and as a result of that core human values are ingrained into his blood stream.


Thank you, my friend.

Before I start, Vicente Del Bosque is my favourite manager in the world and whom I feel is the best in world football as never I would question the man himself and what made him the deity he is to us.

When it comes to my favourite managers, they will be on the platform of the most criticism from me considering how much time I invest in deducting their choices and decisions.

We have won it all as you know, yet post Euro 2012 (the tourney the sign of needed change) España have been on a subtle decline.

International teams have increasingly figured out how to thwart us through examples set by Prandelli, Sampioli, Igesund, Jorge Luis Pinto and club teams whom have formed an increasingly comprehensive plan to render our possession based system, less effective. Why and how?

The core team arguably after peaking in 2012, is not functioning the same way.

Whether Xavi or Pique or most of our cup winning veterans, they have lost either that desire present pre-2010 than had us win in South Africa or the incremental changes in their respective clubs (to which complimented each other rather than being a simple tactical variable) have not caused Del Bosque to evolve upon them, rather we are stagnant. Just like Barcelona post-Pep, gone is the pressing, the zonal movement off the ball, the intensity, the flair... the insito. Pre-Confed Cup was merely a sign yet our performances versus Italia and that horrorshow versus Brazil was not just due to the humidity and the insignificance of the Confederations Cup. Our cycle has reached past its stage as the players exerting their final embers in the tank will not be enough for the 2014 WC.

Del Bosque infuriates in the sense that he only scouts THREE clubs exclusively (well documented) which are Real Madrid, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid, with the exception of an occasional trip for Sevilla (given he lives right next to the city). Other players in different clubs are exclusively scouted by Grande (whom VDB has implicit trust in). Difference is, when it comes to their use he does not use them for their strengths, only relying on a football catalyst past its cycle and without a tactical variance. Implementation of Xabi again is welcome given how tactically important he is yet our midfield is frequently overrun and dominated on the counter considering the base football has been stripped down into the basics, without ANY changes if it does not work.

Vicente's lack of adaptation and faith in his old guard is costing us.

What do I mean by Lippilism? It is a term coined humorously by Mole meaning that Del Bosque will hold onto the guard whom won him everything even if it means they are not the players they were in their halcyon days.

Del Bosque like Lippi, staunchly believes in team dressing room spirit even at the cost of the implementation of a new breed. His premise is correct yet in my opinion there must be a balance struct and he has without a doubt succumbed to the politics which all his predecessors do in choosing a very concentrated contingent of players only from the 3 named clubs, despite individuals performing better in other ones.

How in the world has the arrogant Fernando Torres (who has been utter shit since Euro 2008) get ahead of a far more superior duo in Alvaro Negredo and Fernando Llorente? You may say chemistry yet each and every time both have shown they add a better and more effective dimension than Torres, Llorente especially given his complete skill-set and ambidexrity (something our line screams).

Yes, we do not play centre-forwards and Fabregas for all his consistent excellent for us is limiting us given that we now need to resort back to a reference point to which the players can centre around. Half the players lack a clear role, which is needed considering the timeworn play calling for dynamism and more versatility.

How is Pique continuing to start considering since 2010 he has been a shadow of himself club and country? Considering Íñigo has been better and shown what he can provide in his cap versus Ecuador.

Juanfran is a painfully average right-back whose been chosen over better performers in Iraola and Carvajal.

Alba whose been a pure liability, is exempt considering his excellent form in Barca's final third of the season.

Yet in the midfield Busquets is not performing his role whereas Xavi has been a shadow post-2012 and our front midfield seems to be picked by names than results. Names like David Silva, Mata and Koke who never have performed (bar infrequent exceptions by Silva) continue to be called up.

And then you have Diego Costa who ISN'T Spanish and directly contradicts Vicente's code of conduct (unlike the model professional Senna) by his vile thuggery and theatrics. Quite frankly, it may have been his first appearance but he was absolute dross versus Italia and clearly did not fit in considering he cannot handle such a system on the ball.

This does not reflect on how I view the players yet a bigger point.

Just like this country, España does not believe in merit yet delves purely into seniority, experience, and narrowing the factors down as much as possible as shortcuts, all the opposites of what us Basques believe. My problem with Del Bosque goes beyond my usual call for the new dominant breed of the country in Basques or individual players scouted for what they can add and their performances compared to their national counterparts. Yet merit is not something rewarded within course of Vincente's experimentation and that has been a constant since the world cup.

Exceptions apply such as Fabregas, Pedro, Villa, Ramos etc whom no matter what club form, they always turn it up for España.

Yet there is no way to break into this system outside if you show intangible traits to which no player has yet figured out and despite the results, the tactics are a serious ticking timb bomb to which will be exploited on the stage such as the world cup. In there you have a handful of names whom continue to make the squad despite not even fitting in within the system itself; political reasons must also be mentioned.

Yes like Italia, España turn it up during these stages yet we are resting on a cycle to which has not been invigorated as needed and it may just cost us in the future.

Where I stop is simply on the fact that it IS Vicente Del Bosque managing us, and hopefully he proves me wrong yet questions must be raised.

Also, an absolute honour that you continue to support España.

I have to say that's an outstanding post. Very educational and eye opening for me. Thanks also for your kind comments.

Firstly I deeply appreciate that you respect Del Bosque and have openly said so. The way a few posters talk about him irritates me to say the least.

Yes we have declined somewhat and teams have figured us out to an extent but there are a few counter points to note here. One is that they may have learnt some lessons from the Confed which they can use now. Secondly we had been thrashed in a few matches before Euro 2012 but still won the tournament. The third is that Spain have managed to thwart tactics developed against their dominance longer than Barca have managed the same. So since Barca now has almost admitted itself that it needs to rebuild Spain sooner or later has to follow suit. As I said before that can only be done after WC 2014.

One more point worth noting is what was different in Confed 2013 compared to WC 2010 and Euro 2012. The much maligned double pivot was not there. It seems no matter how much people hate it, Alonso and the double pivot works for us. So I am kind of feeling as if were VDB to go back to the double pivot we would be safer and more prepared against opposition tactics.

Pique's form has plummeted but it's too late to give his place to a youngster with so little experience. Maybe more should have been done to blood in young talents earlier so that they were ready by now.

As for Xavi on the right day and with the right system he can be the maestro once again. No one has forgotten the Euro 2012 final.

Does Del Bosque favour specific clubs? To some extent yes. However it's not like it's for some personal reasons. He just feels players playing in that dynamic would suit our system better. From other clubs he only takes the very best and/or where he really feels the need to take to. Not the best way to go about things but still much better than other coaches who go by personal vendettas.

Llorente I agree about but not Negredo. He could not even keep a starting place at ManCity. As for Diego Costa that's a huge gamble. It's a case of VDB who is maligned for not trying anything different trying something different now and being maligned for it. :)Note that I am not saying it will work.

Alba's case is unique. Not only is he fooling Del Bosque and Spain he is also fooling Barca as we continue to rely on him no matter what. He is one of the indispensable ones even when half the squad is put up for sale for reasons ... who knows.

I won't say David Silva has never performed. He was quite good in Euro 2008. Then in WC 2010 he was hardly given any minutes In Euro 2012 he played well especially towards the starting of the tournament. As for Mata how many opportunities has he been given? Koke even less so. The problem is that the midfield has so many stalwarts that even very good players find it nearly impossible to break in.

While it's true that so much success means less hunger, that 3-0 insult could reignite some of the fire.

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Post by The Franchise on Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:32 pm

What a great post by Arq. Im glad he waited a day if that was the result. Very convincing arguement while previously I took a more sceptical view point, before obviously knowing the depth of his opinion.
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Post by futbol on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:15 pm

Let's filter out the disguise and come straight to the core and what Arqy really wants to tell us.

Arquitescu wrote:

How in the world has the arrogant Fernando Torres (who has been utter shit since Euro 2008) get ahead of a far more superior (...) Fernando Llorente?


Arquitescu wrote:

How is Pique continuing to start considering since 2010 he has been a shadow of himself club and country? Considering Íñigo has been better (...)


Arquitescu wrote:

Juanfran is a painfully average right-back whose been chosen over better performers in (...) Iraola.

:coffee:

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Post by Doc on Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:07 am

I agree with everything bar the Inigo and Carvajal comment. I don't think he outperformed Pique at all. He certainly has reached that level of performance but Pique, when the big spotlight is shining on him, always comes good and any manager (including one as intelligent as Don Vicente) would pick Pique over Inigo.

Carvajal is just not ready for this sort of competition even if it means coming from the bench. Considering he is young, he'll be around for the future though.

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Post by messixaviesta on Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:29 am

@Doc wrote:I agree with everything bar the Inigo and Carvajal comment. I don't think he outperformed Pique at all. He certainly has reached that level of performance but Pique, when the big spotlight is shining on him, always comes good and any manager (including one as intelligent as Don Vicente) would pick Pique over Inigo.

Carvajal is just not ready for this sort of competition even if it means coming from the bench. Considering he is young, he'll be around for the future though.


So effectively what are we left with? Let me put it in a few key points.

1. As I had discussed with dani some time back merely good club form does not mean an automatic ticket to the world cup. It takes more time in terms of consistently performing for the national team and winning the coach's trust.

2. Llorente is the one I feel worst for. Rather than hijacking Diego Costa we should have trusted him.

3. Navas comes next but I think this last season his form hasn't been good. He could still have been there though.

4. Other than these two there are hardly any players not in the squad who could have started and/or had that much impact from the bench. As for Carvajal I don't want an attacking right back in a team already so full of flair. Defense should be the priority in that position.

5. For making up squad numbers yes a few deserving ones could have been called but that wouldn't really affect the team's fortunes.

6. I did a quick summary of the breakup of the squad and while there are players from many clubs one point that arqui makes very correctly is Del Bosque is only going for the big clubs. That's not the case with some other major national teams though. This is one area which could be improved in future.

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