Re: The Official Balon d'Or 2014 Thread

[chad4401]

i think harmonica is saying that cr wasn't as decisive, in the cl win despite all his goals, i have heard jibers with similar arguments doesn't sound that ctazy, in relation to the state of the match and when cr scored, basically statpadding or not

[Magic Spray]

CR7 shouldn't win Balon D'or because he couldn't beat 11 men on his own

Stop caricaturizing Harmonica's argument and try to understand it in its full context:

CR7 wouldn't have beaten 11 men on his own. But as a full team they won the CL.
Messi also can't beat 11 men on his own. But at least his team didn't win anything either.
So that's why Messi should get the award, he didn't have to rely on his team to not win anything, while Ronaldo had to have a team around him to win.
Now I get it, makes perfect sense.

[Dante]

Hans

Well, I wasn't actually using the pass success as a means to say that because of that Neuer is better than CR7, I just found it funny as normally goalies have pass success rates much below that (to compare - Gigi: 81.5%, Casillas: 71.9%, Courtois: 56.1%, de Gea: 66.3%, Sommer 78.6%, Navas 64.1%, ter Stegen: 84%, Bravo: 76.6%, Hart: 59.6%, Weidenfeller: 63.3% - numbers for the leagues from whoscored.com).

As for the quality of his team mates - you can't really say that the quality of the Real players is so much below the Bayern players... As for risky passes - Neuer has an average of 8 long balls per match and most of them reach their targets, too.

One big point against CR7 is his lack of defensive work, as good teams really could exploit that quite a bit. If you look at a player like Robben, he is playing much more team-serving nowadays, and IMO things like that belong to the evaluation of a player, too.

Quality of team mates - i concede there , not sure why i said it like that. Let me rephrase that . Bayern compliments Neuer's extra quality ; distribution has indeed become very important for modern goalkeepers and i do believe Neuer is the very best at that , in part , because the team around him is well suited to receive that kind of play . Nevertheless , this is a bonus , i don't think it's something we should base comparisons on. We shouldn't look to compare that kind of statistic between them , because the data hold quite the different information in each case.

Ronaldo , on the same subject , also has a team full of quality around him , of course. Yet when Ronaldo is in possesion of the ball , almost always , is under a lot more threat and pressure , under constant risk of losing the ball . And more often than not , he will be on the counter . I can expand on this heavily , but i believe you get where i am going with this. It really isn't the same . That's honestly not to take anything away from Neuer ; no . If Ronaldo does lose the ball , it's ok , a player lost the ball , not the end of the world. If Neuer does lose the ball however , it will mean a goal. He doesn't have the slightest room for mistake and under that light , not only his passing rate is impressive , but also worthy of consideration. But as you noted , against other GKs ; it doesn't really hold it's own as an argument against Ronaldo .

As for Ronaldo's defensive work. Again , you look too much in the details and the side objectives ; Ronaldo's job isn't to defend , is to either score goals himself or help create them . From the moment he does that , anything else is a bonus , not a minus if he doesn't . Same goes for Neuer , as i said earlier. Goalkeeping? He's n1 , the rest? Again prove why he is so good , but that's bonus effects. Not really that much a solid argument to be subverted towards anyone's favour.

[Harmonica]

i think harmonica is saying that cr wasn't as decisive, in the cl win despite all his goals, i have heard jibers with similar arguments doesn't sound that ctazy, in relation to the state of the match and when cr scored, basically statpadding or not

Cronaldo won CL and Copa because of his team

Copa

3-0 goal against Osasuna
4-0, 5-0 penaldos against Atletico
Didn't play in final

UCL

3-0, 6-0, 7-1, 8-2 goals against Shalke
3-0 goal against Dortmund
4-0, 5-0 goals against Bayern
4-1 dived penalty against Atletico

As this is a individual title, winning team title, when you aren't decisive shouldn't matter.

Actually I haven't heard single valid reason why Cronaldo should win Ballon d'Or, all I've heard he should just win it. Which is ridiculous, and obvious consequence of media manipulation and them saying: "Here me out sheeps of the media, vote Cronaldo, because the money is there".

It should be

1. Messi (best player of World Cup, best statistics over the year)
2. Neuer (best goalie, won the World Cup)
3. Benzema (if you are going to choose someone from CL-winning team, it should be Benzema. Better than Cronaldo in ball both Clasico's, more decisive in CL, played in Copa Final and didn't flop in the World Cup. And his statistics arent any worse than Cronaldo's when you take penaldos out.)

It's ridiculous that Cronaldo is even in discussion of Top 3 this year.

[Dante]

Neuer is by far the best goalkeeper in the world and the best I've ever seen but I agree with Dante Rwo, stats are almost meaningless for goalkeepers. This 0.27 goals conceded per game for example - would it really be that low if he was on a team that didn't control the game as much as Bayern? There are some games where it doesn't really matter who's in goal, Bayern would still keep a cleansheet.

Stats ordinarily don't mean much, but stats like that for goalkeepers mean even less.

To be clear however, I do think it should be Neuer-Robben-Ronaldo.

I didn't mean it that way.. stats can never be meaningless and this goes for goalkeepers as well . Stats aren't the main case either .. Stats are simply important and can reveal all kinds of stuff , but without the context , they will tell either half-truths , or half-lies . Also , i did not imply that Neuer's stats are so good because of his teammates in front of him . They simply compliment a bonus side of his play , they augment-enhance it if you like . I said that solely because Rwo brought passing as an argument , otherwise i would never have reason to say this ; Neuer is simply put brilliant , he would be so effective anywhere , perhaps with even more praise to go with . Bayern is too dominant as you say and sometimes it raises eyebrows for the GK . Neuer keeping this lvl intact regardless only shows his worth and sporting virtue . He really is a magnifiscent goalkeeper , Bayern or not.

Anyway , it was more like , you can't really compare apples and oranges ; not that oranges are uneatable (is that a word lol) . I just think both players should be judged on their own merit and not between them . It's really hard to draw solid conclusions from a comparison of this kind . You can't use Ronaldo's goals against Neuer , nor Neuer's saves against Ronaldo. You can't either compare common ground here .

-

I personally think and that's an old opinion of mine , that this award shouldn't even exist , at least not in a such official form. There's no , 1 absolute best player in the world and he will never exist either . The best , is the best at everything . Nobody in football can be the best at everything , no matter how talented or how hard he trains . So , theoriticaly speaking always , FIFA should either split BODs into forward-midfielder-defender-goalkeeper awards.. or abolish it and make it unofficial , like it was.. sure it has meaning even this way , but if one sits down to analyse and take the scientific method , you can't really say there ever was the best player in the world . For instance , the best tennis player will do everything required in tennis better than everybody else , hence such an award will be 100% valid , under any circumstances.

That doesn't exist in football , this kind of 'award' is reserved for the team when they win a cup e.t.c , being a team sport . Under that light , giving an individual , best player award in football , is kinda out of balance. Strictly speaking , no one ever was nor will be the best footballer in the world , simply because someone else will be doing something in football better than him . Maybe i'm not judging this right , idk , but each and every season , all kinds of different criteria pop up and the reason is , deep down , that this award shouldn't exist in the form it does.

Let's say , if Ronaldo would win it , it should be Best forward in the world ; if Neuer , Best GK in the world award e.t.c . But anyway , just food for thought . The masses of fans don't care about any of that , it will never happen.

[rwo power]

I personally think and that's an old opinion of mine , that this award shouldn't even exist , at least not in a such official form. There's no , 1 absolute best player in the world and he will never exist either . The best , is the best at everything . Nobody in football can be the best at everything , no matter how talented or how hard he trains . So , theoriticaly speaking always , FIFA should either split BODs into forward-midfielder-defender-goalkeeper awards.. or abolish it and make it unofficial , like it was.. sure it has meaning even this way , but if one sits down to analyse and take the scientific method , you can't really say there ever was the best player in the world .

(...)

Let's say , if Ronaldo would win it , it should be Best forward in the world ; if Neuer , Best GK in the world award e.t.c . But anyway , just food for thought . The masses of fans don't care about any of that , it will never happen.

With this you run in open doors for me, to try and translate a German figure of speech ("offene Türen einrennen"), meaning that with this argument you don't really need to convince me as I've been saying that all the time, too.

The problem is that FIFA insist on the "Best Player" thing, and my point is just that there are indeed more "best players" than just Messi and CR7, just as you also said above, and they also come in non-striker positions.

IMO a player like Philipp Lahm being overlooked is a shame, too - even though some poster tried to ridicule me for that. But if you look at his playing intelligence and excellence in several different positions (LB, RB, DM, CM), how can one not even consider him, too?

[Hapless_Hans]

stats can never be meaningless and this goes for goalkeepers as well . Stats aren't the main case either .. Stats are simply important and can reveal all kinds of stuff , but without the context , they will tell either half-truths , or half-lies .

That is so true, well put, and important to always bear in mind.

The rest of your post is equally great, and spells out what I feel as well.

I personally think and that's an old opinion of mine , that this award shouldn't even exist , at least not in a such official form. There's no , 1 absolute best player in the world and he will never exist either . The best , is the best at everything . Nobody in football can be the best at everything , no matter how talented or how hard he trains . So , theoriticaly speaking always , FIFA should either split BODs into forward-midfielder-defender-goalkeeper awards.. or abolish it and make it unofficial , like it was.. sure it has meaning even this way , but if one sits down to analyse and take the scientific method , you can't really say there ever was the best player in the world . For instance , the best tennis player will do everything required in tennis better than everybody else , hence such an award will be 100% valid , under any circumstances.

That doesn't exist in football , this kind of 'award' is reserved for the team when they win a cup e.t.c , being a team sport . Under that light , giving an individual , best player award in football , is kinda out of balance. Strictly speaking , no one ever was nor will be the best footballer in the world , simply because someone else will be doing something in football better than him . Maybe i'm not judging this right , idk , but each and every season , all kinds of different criteria pop up and the reason is , deep down , that this award shouldn't exist in the form it does.

Yes. Exactly.

It does exist though, and I can't bring myself to either take it too seriously or have strong feelings about who should win it.
I can't for example, insist that Neuer should win it. Not that he wouldn't deserve it etc pp, but it all doesn't really make sense as you explain.
I'm only participating in the discussion ex negativo, i.e. I'm annoyed by this Messi or Ronaldo nonsense, as for my feeling an award that, being an individual award, already represent of a shortening as a representation of the sport, is shortening even further the richness and variety of great individual players that exist.
In a way, it doesn't even take 'individuality' into account anymore.

[Hapless_Hans]

"preach to the converted" is the phrase RWO.

[rwo power]

"preach to the converted" is the phrase RWO.

Thanks. *scribbles it down for further perusal* I was too lazy to hunt the web for the proper figure of speech as I'm a bit busy atm

[Valkyrja]

It's ridiculous that Cronaldo is even in discussion of Top 3 this year.

[Casciavit]

i think harmonica is saying that cr wasn't as decisive, in the cl win despite all his goals, i have heard jibers with similar arguments doesn't sound that ctazy, in relation to the state of the match and when cr scored, basically statpadding or not

I had quick look at the minutes he scored his CL goals, and all his goals in the knockout round were basically the 4th and 5th goal in a trashing.

So maybe Harmonica is right when he says his goals weren't decisive, but truth is the voters don't care what minute he scored his goals in. Fact is, scoring 17 goals and winning La Decima will be at the very front of there minds.

[rwo power]

Yeah, that's why IMO Thomas Müller is more valuable as a player as many of his goals were the important 1:0 goals that actually carved the opponents open so that then the others got more spaces to score as well. He has far less goals and his playing style doesn't look slick and fancy, but his importance is much bigger in comparison.

CR7 on the other hand does less of the initial work, and exploits the open spaces that he gets later when the opponents already are hit by initial goals of his colleagues.

[chad4401]

@cas yeah its not that crazy when you really look at it, but im pretty what its comes down to is records and trophies, i want cr to win bdo, cause i don't wanna see the blackhole open up again tbh

@rwo I agree with some of that, and i say some cause i believe if cr could score all the openers,equaliser and statpad he would, just the nature of the game last season that he end up scoring a lot of useless goals, that all you need to be the best nowadays tbh.

[farfan]

stop it you guys .

ronaldo is the best at the moment,  you can nitpick and bitch about stats all you want , it wont change reality .

lol at muller

[chad4401]

no one said cr isn't the best, just talking facts about his decisiveness in the cl win, which is fair since the cl is the main reason he is being considered for the bdo

[rwo power]

lol at muller

Why? I would always prefer to have Thomas Müller in a team before CR7 as I consider Müller much more valuable for the teamplay.

[LeBéninois]

I personally think and that's an old opinion of mine , that this award shouldn't even exist , at least not in a such official form. There's no , 1 absolute best player in the world and he will never exist either . The best , is the best at everything . Nobody in football can be the best at everything , no matter how talented or how hard he trains . So , theoriticaly speaking always , FIFA should either split BODs into forward-midfielder-defender-goalkeeper awards.. or abolish it and make it unofficial , like it was.. sure it has meaning even this way , but if one sits down to analyse and take the scientific method , you can't really say there ever was the best player in the world .

(...)

Let's say , if Ronaldo would win it , it should be Best forward in the world ; if Neuer , Best GK in the world award e.t.c . But anyway , just food for thought . The masses of fans don't care about any of that , it will never happen.

With this you run in open doors for me, to try and translate a German figure of speech ("offene Türen einrennen"), meaning that with this argument you don't really need to convince me as I've been saying that all the time, too.

The problem is that FIFA insist on the "Best Player" thing, and my point is just that there are indeed more "best players" than just Messi and CR7, just as you also said above, and they also come in non-striker positions.

Fifa insist on the '' best player '' thing because fans in general are also obsessed with that. Some people don't care about 2nd or 3rd and wongfully so. You would almost believe it's a failure being 2nd or 3rd. if Neuer gets to the podium it would be a great achievement nonetheless.

[farfan]

lol at muller

Why? I would always prefer to have Thomas Müller in a team before CR7 as I consider Müller much more valuable for the teamplay.

there is not a single thing that muller does better than ronaldo NOT A SINGLE THING .

the only thing he has over him is playing for a better national side .

[Hapless_Hans]

In my opinion, Müller does everything better than Ronaldo, he's even better looking and more glamorous. He would also do better stepovers and freekicks if he wanted.

So guess we'll have to agree to disagree , but one thing is sure, I'd NEVER want to swap them

[rwo power]

@farfan
I really have the impression you haven't properly watched Thomas Müller yet.

Well, and "playing for a better national side" - could it maybe be better as the players in it actally make the team better, which is my point?

Many people always complain about the separate players of the German NT being worse than other "top top players" - but IMO the point is they are better teamplayers and thus more valuable for the teamsport football. After all, you always need the players to combine to win, not having one super duper player who mainly plays for himself and thus makes the team less.

[farfan]

@ hans
a german / bayern  poster thinking that a german / bayern player is superior is not suprising

some of you need to at least  have  the decency to admit that you have a bias and are not objective .

and yes, muller does everything better, including  assisting less and scoring 3 times less for  NT and bayern despite playing more games over the past 5 years .

oh wait, goals and assists don't count when trying to assess the pefromance of attacking players, my bad

@ rwo

i think i've watched enough muller to know what kind of player he is .

if you think that he's more important for bayern / germany than ronaldo is for madrid / portugal, then you're tripping big time .

[Hapless_Hans]

I wasn't claiming I wasn't biased though , I love Müller and deeply dislike Ronaldo, so this is settled for me.

[rwo power]

and yes, muller does everything better, including  assisting less and scoring 3 times less for  NT and bayern despite playing more games over the past 5 years  .

oh wait, goals and assists don't count when trying to assess the pefromance of attacking players, my bad

And still Thomas Müller already scored 10 goals in the 2 World Cups he took part in, winning Best Young Player 2010, Golden Boot 2010, Silver Ball 2014 and Silver Boot 2014 and the World Cup 2014 as well. So it looks as if he scores when it actually counts.

if you think that he's more important for bayern / germany than ronaldo is for madrid / portugal, then you're tripping big time .

Well, let's agree to disagree there.

[Cruijf]

I find it strange I'm disagreeing so much with rwo when we both want the same person to win, but here we go again:

Muller is a fantastic, fantastic player. Is he better than Ronaldo? I shouldn't have to answer that. Is he more important to his teams than Ronaldo? Again, I really should not have to answer that.

Portugal is Ronaldo, simple as that. People overrate Portugal because of Ronaldo, but when he was injured/playing badly (depending on who you ask) the whole world saw just how bad they were at the WC. Without Ronaldo Portugal wouldn't have qualified for the World Cup and would've long ago vanished from the list of top international teams. Can you say the same thing for Muller? He's a massively important player and it's not 100% certain Germany would've won the WC without him, but he doesn't completely make up the team that's for sure.

As for Bayern and Real Madrid they're a bit closer but Ronaldo is still much more important.

Rwo, since you love stats so much when it comes to goalkeepers, here's one for you:

43% of Real Madrid's goals have come from Ronaldo.

43.

I don't even like Ronaldo but for God's sake don''t say Muller's more important for his teams than Ronaldo is.

[Doc]

Only thing Muller does better than Ronaldo is have a more punchable face which is quite a feat. Excellent footballer though...

[chad4401]

tbh im not buying this cr is portugal stuff, im not saying that portugal are world beaters or great, but their not that awful, its the coaching more than anything imo, even a star studded team like rm, under mou looked helpless without cr, that clearly not the case under carlo, portugal needs a proper system than pass the ball to cr or they won't be any more than that

cr seems like the kinda guy who like situations where its him or bust imo.

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