Ribery: Pep lacks experience

urbaNRoots wrote:

rincon wrote:I think every one rates Pep very highly, its just the notion by the media and a lot of fans that he must be the best thing to ever happen to football.

He is one of the best managers around but I really don't him as a particular stand out among other top managers, today or all time.

Luis Enrique has a CL and semifinal in 2 years. Thats already better than what Pep did in Bayern. Mou had 3 semis in Madrid, again the same as Pep in Bayern. Carlo had a CL and a semi in 2 years, just like Enrique and better than Pep. Simeone blows him (and most) out of the water with 2 finals in 3 years with Atleti in that time.

Thats just the last few years. He has his career ahead of him so we'll see but its not done yet.

Just in contemporary managers, he has a lot of work to get to Ancelotti and Mourinho, Simeone coming up as well.

That is exactly what I mean.

Judge him as you would judge any other manager and you'll see he is not special or better than all the other great managers in the world.

Except that you do.

You judge him a lot higher than any other manager. Would you say getting to the semi final of the CL every season of his career so far is equivalent of Arsenal finishing 4th every year for anyone else?

No you wouldn't in fact it's the complete opposite, so without releasing you yourself are judging him at a completely higher level than any other manager just simply based on the fact that you criticize him for achievements for things you would praise others for lol.

I do judge him like i do any other top manager, but you don't quite clearly.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Another example is Luis Enrique was knocked in the quarter finals with the best attack in the world and nobody ever said a word But Pep gets knocked out in the semi finals and apparently he's a failure.

Something isn't quite right there.

Hype.

rincon wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:It's funny that Ancelotti and Mourinho has failed to get to the latter stages of the CL many times but nobody ever gave them shit for it.

It's what i was talking about before when it comes to standards, if Pep doesn't win it he's a failure. If anybody else doesn't it never happens.

At Chelsea Ancelotti got knocked out in the 2nd round after winning the league with over a 100 goals scored, but nobody ever gave him shit for it. Mourinho too has done similar except the 100 goals thing obviously lol.

Pep gets more shit for getting further in the CL I wish the world was capable of being balanced and treating people equally instead of holding people to higher standards and holding others to lower standards.

Another example is Luis Enrique was knocked in the quarter finals with the best attack in the world and nobody ever said a word But Pep gets knocked out in the semi finals and apparently he's a failure.

Something isn't quite right there.

Its because almost no one has expectation of Luis Enrique being a managerial great. Besides, Mourinho's every failure and slip gets TONS of talk from everyone. He must be one of the most talked-about characters in football. And people are extremely eager to point any of Ancelotti's league failures. Everyone with great expectations gets talked about.

Look at Casciavit's post for an example. Its not enough that people consider Pep to be one of the best coaches around, he absolutely must be at the top. And he puts down other coaches in the mean time just because. Fans make sound like he is the second coming.

No they don't.....

Just one of many examples of the argument used against him, no one here thinks he's the second coming. You are making it up because you want to believe it.

Also Mourinho only got shit when he looked like he was taking Chelsea down lmao, before that he never got shit for winning the league and going far in the CL.

This is what i'm on about, the standards are completely different. Nobody is judged on this level, not even SAF was and it confuses me.

I don't think anyone on the forum was calling Luis Enrique the best manager in the world, though, so why would anybody care about when ore where or how he gets knocked out?

We neutrals care about it once a certain coach or player gets hyped enough. Seems like they could use some knocking down, if the hype turns out to be just that: hype. As it was in the case of Pep, who disappointed at Bayern.

sportsczy wrote:It's not a downfall... but it does become a limitation if you don't solve your weaknesses, assuming that these weaknesses actually impact your performance significantly enough.

In EPL, he won't have overwhelming talent compared to other clubs like he enjoyed at Barca and Bayern.  I think this will be the first true test of how good a manager he is...  If Pep doesn't adjust or solve some of his weaknesses, he may by in for a rude awakening.

Mou got humbled (figuratively; he's not humble lol) by the EPL.

My point would be that what you call his "weaknesses" (focus on attack, maximizing possession as high up the pitch as possible, pressing as the main venue of defending) are just the other side of the coin of what makes him great and successful.

As I said, you have to take the advantages AND the disadvantages of a thing - you can't separate them just like that.
These methods and tactics have upsides and downsides. The upside can be seen in 95% of games. The downside in the bad defeats Pep suffered in a small number of high profile games.
So I'd argue that the bottom line with Pep is not perfect, but pretty *bleep* great.

Deep down, more or less everyone feels the same. Except maybe Viva.
Everyone would like to have Pep as their coach, and would be looking forward to it and see it as a positive.
Pep as Real or PSG coach? Don't tell me you wouldn't love that sports
Pep as AC Milan coach? M99 and Es would be jizzing their pants, and rightly so.
Pep as Arsenal coach? Urban can't tell me he wouldn't like that

S wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Another example is Luis Enrique was knocked in the quarter finals with the best attack in the world and nobody ever said a word But Pep gets knocked out in the semi finals and apparently he's a failure.

Something isn't quite right there.

Hype.

Every great manager has been hyped but that never made this happen before.... are you really that childish that you can ignore whatever hype there is and judge fairly and accordingly?

I know i can but a lot of people here don't seem to be able to for some reason.

Hapless_Hans wrote:Deep down, more or less everyone feels the same. Except maybe Viva.
Everyone would like to have Pep as their coach, and would be looking forward to it and see it as a positive.
Pep as Real or PSG coach? Don't tell me you wouldn't love that sports
Pep as AC Milan coach? M99 and Es would be jizzing their pants, and rightly so.
Pep as Arsenal coach? Urban can't tell me he wouldn't like that

True, I wouldn't want him. Has not ever proven to be able to work on a budget, wouldn't know what to do with the crap players St. Pauli have. I'd much rather have Stanislawski back. Holger, you golden god!

The reason Carlo isn't talked in the same way Pep and Mou are is because he's too likeable. I don't think anyone has ever said anything negative about him be it opponents, current or ex players. Can't say the same things about the other too.

VivaStPauli wrote:

Hapless_Hans wrote:Deep down, more or less everyone feels the same. Except maybe Viva.
Everyone would like to have Pep as their coach, and would be looking forward to it and see it as a positive.
Pep as Real or PSG coach? Don't tell me you wouldn't love that sports
Pep as AC Milan coach? M99 and Es would be jizzing their pants, and rightly so.
Pep as Arsenal coach? Urban can't tell me he wouldn't like that

True, I wouldn't want him. Has not ever proven to be able to work on a budget, wouldn't know what to do with the crap players St. Pauli have. I'd much rather have Stanislawski back. Holger, you golden god!

to be honest Stanislaus annoyed the *bleep* out of me as ZDF's tactics weatherman at the Euros

so yeah I'd much prefer he go back to Pauli instead of continuing to appear there

Pep trying to make Poli-Montolivo-Bertolacci work

Wouldn't take him even if he was free, arrogant, egotistical prick that he is, he can find some other club that tailors itself to his needs and lets him fire medics and whatnot, all the while shoving his philosophy down on all levels from youth to trainers, then quit in 2 years because 'he has done all he can'

Pep would implement a GOAT 4-3-1-2 tbf

Hapless_Hans wrote:Pep would implement a GOAT 4-3-1-2 tbf

http://forum.acmilan-online.com/images/smilie/monto.png

So in conclusion to this wonderful and very impartial discussion following are the drawbacks of Pep, Mou and Carlo.
Carlo: winning leagues.
Mou: doesn't handle youth properly, tends to leave teams in chaos after him ala Chelsea and madrid.
Simeone: no drawbacks at all, about to catch pep
Pep: didn't win CL with Bayern.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

urbaNRoots wrote:

rincon wrote:I think every one rates Pep very highly, its just the notion by the media and a lot of fans that he must be the best thing to ever happen to football.

He is one of the best managers around but I really don't him as a particular stand out among other top managers, today or all time.

Luis Enrique has a CL and semifinal in 2 years. Thats already better than what Pep did in Bayern. Mou had 3 semis in Madrid, again the same as Pep in Bayern. Carlo had a CL and a semi in 2 years, just like Enrique and better than Pep. Simeone blows him (and most) out of the water with 2 finals in 3 years with Atleti in that time.

Thats just the last few years. He has his career ahead of him so we'll see but its not done yet.

Just in contemporary managers, he has a lot of work to get to Ancelotti and Mourinho, Simeone coming up as well.

That is exactly what I mean.

Judge him as you would judge any other manager and you'll see he is not special or better than all the other great managers in the world.

Except that you do.

You judge him a lot higher than any other manager. Would you say getting to the semi final of the CL every season of his career so far is equivalent of Arsenal finishing 4th every year for anyone else?

No you wouldn't in fact it's the complete opposite, so without releasing you yourself are judging him at a completely higher level than any other manager just simply based on the fact that you criticize him for achievements for things you would praise others for lol.

I do judge him like i do any other top manager, but you don't quite clearly.

Mole you know as well I, how Mourinho was mocked in the past few years for reaching only the semi finals with great teams in the CL. I was among those people, because he deserved it. You were among those people aswell and pretty much everyone else. Why did you change your opinion now in this discussion if reaching CL semi final is good enough for a top 3 club, let alone for three years straight? Is it because it concerns Pep Guardiola and not the hated Mourinho? So it appears that I am the one who is judging managers fairly and consistently while you nitpick between those you like and those you don't. Don't make me dig up quotes.

And to answer Hans' question of course I'd like Pep at Arsenal. I was practically begging for us to get him in this summer. That does not make me a hypocrite though if that's what you are trying to elude. I would take a great deal of managers over Arsene Wenger right now, and even then Pep would be one of my favourites. However what I'm trying to prove is that Pep is not a special manager, or much better than some of the other great managers and certainly below experienced managers like Ancelotti. That is based on actual evidence of success and not fake "success" like reaching the semi finals for three straight years with a top 3 team in the world.

I don't remember that tbh, fair enough if it did happen i just don't remember it.

Besides i would have said the same thing there, if he was mocked for doing something most managers get praised for instead of just being mocked because he's a dislikeable dick Then it's wrong lol.

I just judge people all the same, i don't care how much hype is around you.

My biggest issue here is how CL semi finals every year is some sort of easy thing, there's a reason only one manager in history has won it 3 times and very few have even won it twice and it hasn't been retained for nearly 30 years.

I'd be fine if everyone else was criticised and praised the same way but they are not, this isn't just a Pep thing either it's something that spreads across football.

I hate how a player likes Silva gets undue praise when he puts in a great performance but when he goes missing for weeks at a time nobody says a thing.

Yet when Ozil has a bad performance everyone goes nuts and says how inconsistent he is and when he plays well everyone is quiet and refuse to praise him.

There's no consistency and it's the same with Pep and other managers of comparable stature.

sportsczy wrote:Pep gets reckless when there's no need to be reckless at times... that's his downfall.  It almost cost him against Juve.  It did cost him against Atleti.

When you take the advantage against those teams, you need to make subs, get more compact and let them come to you a bit.  Attack, attack, attack....  that just plays into their hands.

I also don't think any team can keep the pace that Pep wants for 90 mins.  All of them slow down a bit around the 65-70 min mark.  I think he recognizes it of course and hopes that the game is already decided by then, that adrenaline carries his players enough to end the match or that the opposition gets equally as tired.  

I don't think it's naivete.  It's just stubbornness.  Not the first or last manager to suffer from it.

Now this is a valid criticism. The best footballing performance I ever saw was Barca vs Arsenal at the Emirates in 2010. It was a footballing masterclass and we completely and utterly destroyed Arsenal. The passing, the movement and the positional play all perfect. Yet the game ended 2-2. For some reason, he cant seem to close out such away performances. But that doesnt take away from the performance itself.
I always ask the same question to any Pep critic. Can any coach on the planet get his team to play to that level of performance?
Nobody else can. People said its all the players. Well, Barca have had numerous coaches since and we havent seen a similar level of performance. Nowhere close. We have won a treble and a double but the performances havent been even remotely close to Pep's best performances.
Thats why Pep's a genius. Anyone who doesnt see that either doesnt understand the game or is a hater.

Mole, please tell me which manager other than Pep Guardiola is praised for making the CL semi finals for three years straight with a top 3 team? I'll eagerly await your answer.

Your biggest issue is easily explained. Reaching the CL semifinals with a top 3 team is an acceptable feat, but not a special one. This is why no one considers this as success. If he achieved three semi finals with Arsenal, that would certainly be considered successful (and even then he would be criticized, because no one likes stagnation).

I agree with you on undeserved praise. Which is what Guardiola is getting compared to other managers who are just as successful - some of them even more successful than him - but don't get near as much credit.

urbaNRoots wrote:Mole, please tell me which manager other than Pep Guardiola is praised for making the CL semi finals for three years straight with a top 3 team? I'll eagerly await your answer.

Your biggest issue is easily explained. Reaching the CL semifinals with a top 3 team is an acceptable feat, but not a special one. This is why no one considers this as success. If he achieved three semi finals with Arsenal, that would certainly be considered successful (and even then he would be criticized, because no one likes stagnation).

I agree with you on undeserved praise. Which is what Guardiola is getting compared to other managers who are just as successful - some of them even more successful than him - but don't get near as much credit.

Moving the goalposts again. Pep isn't praised for reaching consecutive semis, he's called a fraud and a failure.
Then when we defend him against this nonsense, you go "oh look he's being praised for reaching semis".

Disingenuous, lazy, resentful.

Pep have easily 20 years to coach. Let's just wait and see before ranking him
My children might be the ones debating about how great he is at the end of his career.

1. Pep is not a bad manager. He's a very good manager.
2. As a Bayern fan, when I bitch about him it's not to say he's a bad manager, it's just to state that the hype is false. He is not football's second coming or does not revolutionize tactics to unbeatable levels.

I do not feel that the whole project got us anywhere. Sure, we played some fantastic football, won some domestic cups, but to be honest, with that team any half decent manager should be doing. This is in no way bashing Buli's quality, just stating that Bayern have an incredible team with massive depth.

Pep got massive support from the board. He was constantly lauded and backed and driven up to be the manager we've all been waiting for, the guy who's going to give us a philosophy and serve us for years, to succeed in Heynckes' incredible run. We had a very patchy first year, humiliated in the CL we had just won. Ok, we're adjusting to the whole tiki taka shit. 2nd year, better. Still some stubborn mistakes, but that Barca team was incredible. 3rd year... ok maybe bad luck. Great football, though, the team really look to be into how we should be playing. Well, that's good enough I guess. Bye. I'm heading over to a vastly inferior team. Thanks for all the support, but I have a retirement to think of. Ok, I can get that on a personal level, but I don't have to like it as a fan.

What the frack? This ain't what we were promised. I thought we got a young manager to secure stability and longevity. Not really sure the reasons behind this, maybe the board was also disillusioned, but overall, he didn't frack up but then he also did not rock my socks off as he was hyped to.

But he won like record breaking BLs and Cups! Well, yeah. Duh. I mean, you guys bitch about it being Buyernleague but then shine Pep's bald spots when he wins them?  I as a fan have that very clear. Bayern not winning the league would only be made up by the same year winning the CL or something. Pep wasn't brought to win Buli's. He was brought to continue those CL challenges and maybe win one. In 3 years with that team he should have at least be reaching finals, like Simone. I mean pretty much the same core dominated the CL a few years back. As a fan that's what I'm measuring. On the long run no one will give two fracks about Pep's Bayern run, they'll be talking about Barca sextuplets and whatever he does in the future. Van Gaal's tenure was vastly criticized, but I cut him a hell lot of slack of inheriting a very mediocre team and having to actually build without spending too much. Did not win CL, either, though, but he did not have the tools Pep had.

So let's conclude: Pep's a good coach, but his Bayern tenure was decidedly lukewarm up to what Bayern standards were at that point. We did not have Inter's post CL team, the team was in its prime and full of youth still. I expected better. I appreciate how many players have improved (and how Lahm can play CM I guess?) under his tenure, but I don't know how much different it would be if it were another good, solid coach under the same time as him.

Basically, Ribery was right

rincon wrote:

Casciavit wrote:"Lot of work to get up to Mou, Ancelotti and Simeone."

The same Ancelotti who is a genuine league flop.

The same Mou who has only won 2 major trophies in the last 6 years, despite havin millions to spend. The same Mou who has left his last two teams in awful situations.

The same Simeone who gets bitch slapped every year by Real Madrid in the CL.

If you honestly think Pep is a level below them.

They're all around the same level, but there is no way Pep is below them.

Its a good thing football didn't start 6 years ago isn't it?

Mourinho won 2 trebles with Porto, the CL with inter and leagues with Madrid and Chelsea.

Pep sure as hell has to work to achieve such widespread success. Like I said, he has his career in ahead of him to achieve whatever.

Same with Ancelotti, success across teams and leagues, with 3 CLs to boot.

and I said "Simeone coming up to". Not that he had to work up to Simeone, but that Simeone is also, like Pep, on his way to become such a successful coach.

Why are you acting like Pep didn't win anything before he went to Bayern? He built one of the GOAT teams that won 14 trophies in 4 years. Or do past accomplishments for Pep not matter? Because, honestly on here, it seems like what matters is only the past 3 seasons for Pep, but for other coaches, we should take their entire careers into account. (:

Honestly, what makes Mou and Ancelotti on a higher level? Is it only experience? Because both of those two have had glaring issues in the past few years that aren't talked about nearly in the same breath as:

"HERP DERP PEP DIDN'T WIN CL, WHAT A FRAUD!"

Sushi, nice post.

I think the general sentiment by Bayern fans, the board, and apparently Pep himself was that they all expected him to stay longer than 3 years. He built the team he wanted in his 3rd year. He probably wanted a new challenge because he was regularly winning the Bundesliga. I mean, at the end of the day, you can't expect a coach to stay until he wins the CL. Life's too short, for a person to stay at a specific place until they win 'X' competition. Can you really blame him for wanting a new challenge?

'He built a GOAT team'

That Barca team had some of the best individual talent of all time + the GOAT himself. He wouldn't have got past the semis in his Barca tenure without Messi in their roster. So basically his Bayern team is Barca minus Messi. I guess its harder to win CL without having a guy who can take an entire team by himself

Valkyrja wrote:'He built a GOAT team'

That Barca team had some of the best individual talent of all time + the GOAT himself. He wouldn't have got past the semis in his Barca tenure without Messi in their roster. So basically his Bayern team is Barca minus Messi. I guess its harder to win CL without having a guy who can take an entire team by himself

Yes, he did build a GOAT team. Who was it that built the midfield around Xavi and Iniesta when it was widely regarded by the media, that they couldn't co-exist with one another in the midfield? Pep.

Who binned all the bad influences and gave Messi the primary attacking responsibility? Pep.

Who turned Pique into a CB who many regarded as one of the best in the world? Pep.

Who called up Busquets and made him a starter? Pep.

Who put Messi into the false 9? Pep.

Who made a scrub like Pedro look like an actual footballer? Pep.

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But nah, let me guess any other coach would have done that, silly me. When things go wrong it's on the coach, when things go well it's because of the players.

Just proves why you are one of the worst posters on the forum. See yourself out son.