Re: Ribery: Pep lacks experience

by urbaNRoots Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:28 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
CBarca wrote:I'm still confused as to how one UCL win in how many years is classified as incredibly successful in Europe prior to Pep.

I've heard it a lot. I still don't get it. Can someone explain?

Beats me too. One would be forgiven for thinking Bayern were racking up CL after CL.

I can explain. Heynckes won the CL in his 3 years he was in Bayern, and Pep Guardiola didn't in as many years. Hence being successful, just one year before Pep's arrival.

by Casciavit Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:53 pm

Lord Awesome wrote:A lot of Pep fans in GL seem more irritating than Pep himself, tbh. These really believe his style of coaching is multidimensional and revolutionary. Pep only needed 1 CL, not 3, 1, to prove his mettle. I'm sure the hype will end once Pep is found out in PL and he'll end up like Rijkaard or something.

I've never understood your agenda against anything Barca-related. I mean, I can understand a post like this from a Madrid fan like Turok, or a premface, but what historical ties do Valencia-Barca have, for you to be so bitter? Unless, you're actually a Madrid fan, which would make your POV kind of understandable.

by LeBéninois Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:57 pm

Jupp Heynckes deserves all the credit he got for the terrific season 2012-2013 but using that only season to put down Pep is plain stupid.

1- Bayern at the times just lost 2 finals in 3 years and they were hungry as ever
2- Robben was just WC . The fear of losing his place due to constant injuries made him step up his game.

To the people saying Pep is overrated, had he won the CL with Bayern how high he would have been ranked ? Well he's closer to that than the opposite.

by chad4401 Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:02 pm

Lord Awesome wrote:A lot of Pep fans in GL seem more irritating than Pep himself, tbh. These really believe his style of coaching is multidimensional and revolutionary. Pep only needed 1 CL, not 3, 1, to prove his mettle. I'm sure the hype will end once Pep is found out in PL and he'll end up like Rijkaard or something.

Agreed completely pep fans are worse, everything he does is genius, all I see is guy who still needs messi to win a cl.

by Winter is Coming Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:06 pm

Coming from a Benzema fanboy rofl

by chad4401 Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:14 pm

Winter is Coming wrote:Coming from a Benzema fanboy

So what if I'm a benzema fan? beats being coward avoiding bumping his threads for months,, when he is scoring just to say something stupid and irrelevant(like now) dat sheep mentality Proud

by Hapless_Hans Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:32 pm

this forum rofl

by Adit Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:51 pm

Mourinho making 3 cl semi finals in a row was never termed as a extra ordinary achievement or success by anyone including this same pephuggers , now guardiola making same is impressive? Laughing

Talk about double standard.

by Adit Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:53 pm

LeBéninois wrote:Jupp Heynckes deserves all the credit he got for the terrific season 2012-2013 but using that only season to put down Pep is plain stupid.

1- Bayern at the times just lost 2 finals in 3 years and they were hungry as ever
2- Robben was just WC . The fear of losing his place due to constant injuries made him step up his game.

To the people saying Pep is overrated, had he won the CL with Bayern how high he would have been ranked ? Well he's closer to that than the opposite.

Bottom line is he didn't. He got triple trashed by three different Spanish teams. Not even one, three of them.

by Adit Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:55 pm

Having messi is basically cheat mode which I'm sure pep himself realized after he faced messi with his Bayern.

by rincon Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:23 am

I think every one rates Pep very highly, its just the notion by the media and a lot of fans that he must be the best thing to ever happen to football.

He is one of the best managers around but I really don't him as a particular stand out among other top managers, today or all time.

Luis Enrique has a CL and semifinal in 2 years. Thats already better than what Pep did in Bayern. Mou had 3 semis in Madrid, again the same as Pep in Bayern. Carlo had a CL and a semi in 2 years, just like Enrique and better than Pep. Simeone blows him (and most) out of the water with 2 finals in 3 years with Atleti in that time.

Thats just the last few years. He has his career ahead of him so we'll see but its not done yet.

Just in contemporary managers, he has a lot of work to get to Ancelotti and Mourinho, Simeone coming up as well.

by urbaNRoots Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:27 am

rincon wrote:I think every one rates Pep very highly, its just the notion by the media and a lot of fans that he must be the best thing to ever happen to football.

He is one of the best managers around but I really don't him as a particular stand out among other top managers, today or all time.

Luis Enrique has a CL and semifinal in 2 years. Thats already better than what Pep did in Bayern. Mou had 3 semis in Madrid, again the same as Pep in Bayern. Carlo had a CL and a semi in 2 years, just like Enrique and better than Pep. Simeone blows him (and most) out of the water with 2 finals in 3 years with Atleti in that time.

Thats just the last few years. He has his career ahead of him so we'll see but its not done yet.

Just in contemporary managers, he has a lot of work to get to Ancelotti and Mourinho, Simeone coming up as well.

That is exactly what I mean. Thumbs up

Judge him as you would judge any other manager and you'll see he is not special or better than all the other great managers in the world.

by Donuts Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:18 am

guy has 6 league titles and 2 champions league wins in just 7 years of managing.

ancelotti has 3 champions leagues and 3 leagues since.. what 1999? or whatever year he started coaching juve

by Ion Creanga Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:24 am

Donuts wrote:guy has 6 league titles and 2 champions league wins in just 7 years of managing.

ancelotti has 3 champions leagues and 3 leagues since.. what 1999? or whatever year he started coaching juve

Di Matteo 1 Champions League. Zidane 1 Champions league.
Simeone 0.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:40 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
Lord Awesome wrote:A lot of Pep fans in GL seem more irritating than Pep himself, tbh.

Honestly the haters with their non-nonsensical arguments that make absolutely no sense are more annoying.

I can accept people not rating him, liking him or what ever.

But this constant crap of firstly he never changed his style, no success in CL but winning it once before him is extreme success and it's his fault that they are failures because they won it once they should be expected to win it every year.

Lastly acting like CL semi finals is a complete non-achievement and equivalent to finishing 4th in the PL Especially when the best managers around have all failed to do it with super teams but none of them get shit. He's judged on a different level to any manager in history for some strange reason.

The arguments are completely non-sensical and make absolutely no sense to anyone with a brain cell. The arguments would actually make sense if the " haters " were not completely over the top and ignorant with their criticisms.

the " fanboys " are in the same boat for the most part as well ( except of the odd fantastic posts from the likes of Cascia)tbh but just on the opposite end of the spectrum, the truth lies in between the two arguments which makes sides look like a bunch bumbling idiots for different reasons.

If the arguments made sense i'd have no problem with them, or if Pep was judged like the other World Class managers i'd have no problem with them but he's not for some baffling reason.

We are on a forum where every success he has is discredited to ridiculous levels and if you don't fall in line with the view point of it all you are a Pep fanboy and up his ass apparently.

I'm completely expecting him to get shit even if he wins the league and get to the CL semi finals with City because apparently if he doesn't win everything and anything every year he's a failure, in terms of that logic he's the Messi of football managers in that sense.

If he doesn't win everything he gets discredited and when he does win it's " he should win it anyway " no other manager in the history of football has been judged like this ever and it's completely and utterly moronic.

Hit the nail on the head there, Mole. Amen.
It really is baffling.

by Kaladin Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:45 am

@futbol you gonna take that?

by Hapless_Hans Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:49 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
urbaNRoots wrote:He's right though. Guardiola is a young naive coach who thinks every team will bend to his style of play. The coaches he mentioned have a lot more variety and experience to their game and can adapt to the opposition at the highest level, which Pep struggles to do. Can't fault him or any other Bayern player who is frustrated at the lack of success in Europe, when they were so successful before Pep's arrival.

Except he changed his style of play lol.

You really need to open your eyes if you think how Bayern played last season is the same is how his team played at Barca.

Also what success in Europe? they won it once, stop acting like Bayern won it every year before Pep ruined it all lol. Not like he struggled either, they got to the semi final every year and that wouldn't be considered a " lack of success " normally.

FennecFox7 wrote:It's not always going to be about winning. Football is much deeper then that. The goal is to create a philosophy. And pep did that. Sure, he didn't win the CL, but Bayern were one hell of a team to watch. And they got very unlucky this year against athletico.

Let's not forget he made the semis every year. Ibra and ribery don't like him because they're dickheads. Maybe if ibra let his ego aside for once and starting playing he could've been a much better player as well.

Good posts. Except with the last bit, I think Ibra and Ribéry to an extent are such great players because they are such dickheads. Certainly goes for Ribéry, he's relentless, but of course you'll have to accept he's not going to be world class off the field lol.

Valkyrja wrote:I think he is one of the best coaches of all time. Not as a manager, but certainly for me one of the best coaches. I've never seen any other team than one coached by Guardiola to always attack, suffocating at times. Bayern's performance against Atletico in the 2nd leg was some of the most breathtaking stuff I've ever seen. It could've ended 6 or 7 or 8 in their favor but lady luck was not in their favor. If only Lewandowski had his scoring books we would have witnessed a whole other story.

There were a number of moments where we as Bayern fans were actually just completely blown away and elevated by how our team played.
That doesn't mean Pep didn't make mistakes, but it is a very important thing to see for a fan.

You can imagine how unbelievably annoying it is to them have to be confronted with people saying like parrots "but.. but.. didn't win CL.. got embarrassed in semis... FAIL".

I get criticised for repeating the words idiotic and moronic, but it really is just that, and I'm serious that I'm glad I won't have to do it in the future.

by sportsczy Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:52 am

Pep gets reckless when there's no need to be reckless at times... that's his downfall. It almost cost him against Juve. It did cost him against Atleti.

When you take the advantage against those teams, you need to make subs, get more compact and let them come to you a bit. Attack, attack, attack.... that just plays into their hands.

I also don't think any team can keep the pace that Pep wants for 90 mins. All of them slow down a bit around the 65-70 min mark. I think he recognizes it of course and hopes that the game is already decided by then, that adrenaline carries his players enough to end the match or that the opposition gets equally as tired.

I don't think it's naivete. It's just stubbornness. Not the first or last manager to suffer from it.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:55 am

sportsczy wrote:Pep gets reckless when there's no need to be reckless at times... that's his downfall. It almost cost him against Juve. It did cost him against Atleti.

When you take the advantage against those teams, you need to make subs, get more compact and let them come to you a bit. Attack, attack, attack.... that just plays into their hands.

I don't think it's naivete. It's just stubbornness. Not the first or last manager to suffer from it.

Absolutely true.
The point is, you have to take the bad with the good. Nobody's perfect.
With Pep, there's a hell of a lot of good being intertwined with the negatives you mentioned, but for some reason people take for granted he wins game after game in breath-taking style yet can't get over the fact that it doesn't work all of the time.
Hence, how 'far down' is actually his 'downfall'? Not winning the treble every year? Getting beaten in a CL semi? That's 'downfall'? Laughing

by sportsczy Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:12 pm

It's not a downfall... but it does become a limitation if you don't solve your weaknesses, assuming that these weaknesses actually impact your performance significantly enough.

In EPL, he won't have overwhelming talent compared to other clubs like he enjoyed at Barca and Bayern. I think this will be the first true test of how good a manager he is... If Pep doesn't adjust or solve some of his weaknesses, he may by in for a rude awakening.

Mou got humbled (figuratively; he's not humble lol) by the EPL.

by Casciavit Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:15 pm

"Lot of work to get up to Mou, Ancelotti and Simeone." Laughing

The same Ancelotti who is a genuine league flop.

The same Mou who has only won 2 major trophies in the last 6 years, despite havin millions to spend. The same Mou who has left his last two teams in awful situations.

The same Simeone who gets bitch slapped every year by Real Madrid in the CL.

If you honestly think Pep is a level below them. Laughing

They're all around the same level, but there is no way Pep is below them.

by Hapless_Hans Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:22 pm

Right after Ribéry' second public attack on Pep, there was this commentary in Munich's tz paper, titled
"Why is Ribéry allowed to do this?".
http://www.tz.de/sport/fc-bayern/fc-bayern-muenchen-franck-ribery-kritisiert-guardiola-warum-darf-usa-zr-6619331.html

It notes that it's both completely inappropriate by Ribéry ("This is simply a no-go" is the last sentence) and not suprising given his history of talking bad in retrospect.

However, it also argues that Ribéry might have felt free to talk like that because at this moment there's a vacuum in the PR and DoF department at Bayern - veteran PR guy Hörwick retired, Sammer quit, Hoeness not formally back.
The latter two were huge allies of Pep- when Ribéry talked bad about LvG he could know Hoeness wouldn't mind so much.
This time, we're talking about a coach who is highly regarded by all of Bayern's board, whom our board wanted to stay and with whom they are surely interested in remaining friendly.

And lo and behold, one day later Rummenigge publicly reprimanded Ribéry for his comments on Pep:

Rummenigge wrote:"There's no reason to put the boot in like that. We've won a lot with Pep and profited hugely from him.
So this is unwarranted from Franck, nothing else, period. He should concentrate on football and play well, that is what's relevant."

http://www.tz.de/sport/fc-bayern/fc-bayern-rummenigge-ruegt-ribry-nachtreten-gegen-guardiola-bringt-nichts-6622887.html
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/657029/artikel_doppel-rueffel-fuer-ribery.html

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:23 pm

It's funny that Ancelotti and Mourinho has failed to get to the latter stages of the CL many times but nobody ever gave them shit for it.

It's what i was talking about before when it comes to standards, if Pep doesn't win it he's a failure. If anybody else doesn't it never happens.

At Chelsea Ancelotti got knocked out in the 2nd round after winning the league with over a 100 goals scored, but nobody ever gave him shit for it. Mourinho too has done similar except the 100 goals thing obviously lol.

Pep gets more shit for getting further in the CL Laughing

I wish the world was capable of being balanced and treating people equally instead of holding people to higher standards and holding others to lower standards.

Another example is Luis Enrique was knocked in the quarter finals with the best attack in the world and nobody ever said a word Laughing

But Pep gets knocked out in the semi finals and apparently he's a failure.

Something isn't quite right there.

by rincon Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:24 pm

Casciavit wrote:"Lot of work to get up to Mou, Ancelotti and Simeone."

The same Ancelotti who is a genuine league flop.

The same Mou who has only won 2 major trophies in the last 6 years, despite havin millions to spend. The same Mou who has left his last two teams in awful situations.

The same Simeone who gets bitch slapped every year by Real Madrid in the CL.

If you honestly think Pep is a level below them.

They're all around the same level, but there is no way Pep is below them.

Its a good thing football didn't start 6 years ago isn't it?

Mourinho won 2 trebles with Porto, the CL with inter and leagues with Madrid and Chelsea.

Pep sure as hell has to work to achieve such widespread success. Like I said, he has his career in ahead of him to achieve whatever.

Same with Ancelotti, success across teams and leagues, with 3 CLs to boot.

and I said "Simeone coming up to". Not that he had to work up to Simeone, but that Simeone is also, like Pep, on his way to become such a successful coach.

by rincon Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:28 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:It's funny that Ancelotti and Mourinho has failed to get to the latter stages of the CL many times but nobody ever gave them shit for it.

It's what i was talking about before when it comes to standards, if Pep doesn't win it he's a failure. If anybody else doesn't it never happens.

At Chelsea Ancelotti got knocked out in the 2nd round after winning the league with over a 100 goals scored, but nobody ever gave him shit for it. Mourinho too has done similar except the 100 goals thing obviously lol.

Pep gets more shit for getting further in the CL I wish the world was capable of being balanced and treating people equally instead of holding people to higher standards and holding others to lower standards.

Another example is Luis Enrique was knocked in the quarter finals with the best attack in the world and nobody ever said a word But Pep gets knocked out in the semi finals and apparently he's a failure.

Something isn't quite right there.

Its because almost no one has expectation of Luis Enrique being a managerial great. Besides, Mourinho's every failure and slip gets TONS of talk from everyone. He must be one of the most talked-about characters in football. And people are extremely eager to point any of Ancelotti's league failures. Everyone with great expectations gets talked about.

Look at Casciavit's post for an example. Its not enough that people consider Pep to be one of the best coaches around, he absolutely must be at the top. And he puts down other coaches in the mean time just because. Fans make sound like he is the second coming.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:29 pm

urbaNRoots wrote:
rincon wrote:I think every one rates Pep very highly, its just the notion by the media and a lot of fans that he must be the best thing to ever happen to football.

He is one of the best managers around but I really don't him as a particular stand out among other top managers, today or all time.

Luis Enrique has a CL and semifinal in 2 years. Thats already better than what Pep did in Bayern. Mou had 3 semis in Madrid, again the same as Pep in Bayern. Carlo had a CL and a semi in 2 years, just like Enrique and better than Pep. Simeone blows him (and most) out of the water with 2 finals in 3 years with Atleti in that time.

Thats just the last few years. He has his career ahead of him so we'll see but its not done yet.

Just in contemporary managers, he has a lot of work to get to Ancelotti and Mourinho, Simeone coming up as well.

That is exactly what I mean.

Judge him as you would judge any other manager and you'll see he is not special or better than all the other great managers in the world.

Except that you do.

You judge him a lot higher than any other manager. Would you say getting to the semi final of the CL every season of his career so far is equivalent of Arsenal finishing 4th every year for anyone else?

No you wouldn't in fact it's the complete opposite, so without releasing you yourself are judging him at a completely higher level than any other manager just simply based on the fact that you criticize him for achievements for things you would praise others for lol.

I do judge him like i do any other top manager, but you don't quite clearly.

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