Independence for Catalunya & Euskadi

gondov wrote:I get the feeling you are assuming Catalans are Spanish, they aren't.

I've been evading this topic, its too loaded. However this is just wrong.

Catalans are Spanish in every geopolitical sense, under Spanish law, every person that is born in Spain (Catalonia is a region of Spain, yes it is) and has one parent that was born in Spain automatically receives Spanish nationality. There is no such thing as Catalan nationality because Catalonia is not a country.

Some regions are satisfied with being ruled by the Spanish.

There is no region that is ruled by the Spanish, Spain is a representative democracy that is ruled by its own people under one federal government. Catalonia is part of that country, and has representation in that same government, yes, like other regions in Spain, Catalonia is largely autonomous. However, that does not mean it is subjugated by another head of state in which Catalonia pays tribute. Revolutions in colonies all over the world were started because the colonies themselves had no representation in government and were ruthlessly exploited for the mother nations sake. Catalonia has none of that. And no, paying 19.49% of federal tax and receiving back 14.03% is not exploitation.

Besides from those facts, i just don't understand what benefits can come out of independence, looks to me like a few that are leading the masses. Lets break it down.

I don't think its about either the language or the culture. According to the last Catalan language census, most Catalans prefer and use Spanish before Catalan, policies to increase Catalan use, such as forcing movie theaters to translate movies into Catalan have not been well received. Besides, if Catalonia gained independence it would take centuries for people to stop speaking Spanish, even if it could be done at all. The culture is different? Of course, every country has different cultures for different regions, yet few countries want to splinter themselves.

Is it the politics? It might be, however there is easier and less painful ways of achieving these goals, such as exercising your democratic rights to chose the rulers you wish for yourselves. But what if everyone else is after you? I doubt it, Basques have the same griefs and make some of the same arguments Catalans do.

So what is it then? Is it the bad blood because of the Franco dictatorship? This is my best guess, yes that was pretty bad for everyone. Is it really worth it to go of as a separate country just because of some rifts a dictator caused? Can these wounds not be mended?

Catalonia is in need of a bailout, is this really the best time to go their separate ways?

If we go very back in time it was actually Catalonia who have accepted to join Spain through Crown of Aragon, now they want independence.

Pedram wrote:If we go very back in time it was actually Catalonia who have accepted to join Spain through Crown of Aragon, now they want independence.

Check history books mate.
Catalonia didn't join Spain by will. Spain was created in 1714 when Castille beat Catalonia in war and abolished Catalan, Argaon, Valencian and Balear Islands independence. Before that, each of this regions + Castille was an independent kingdom (although sometimes they shared the same king, same way hungary and Austria shared a king but everyone agrees they were different kingdoms).

chinomaster182 wrote:

gondov wrote:I get the feeling you are assuming Catalans are Spanish, they aren't.

I've been evading this topic, its too loaded. However this is just wrong.

Catalans are Spanish in every geopolitical sense, under Spanish law, every person that is born in Spain (Catalonia is a region of Spain, yes it is) and has one parent that was born in Spain automatically receives Spanish nationality. There is no such thing as Catalan nationality because Catalonia is not a country.

Some regions are satisfied with being ruled by the Spanish.

There is no region that is ruled by the Spanish, Spain is a representative democracy that is ruled by its own people under one federal government. Catalonia is part of that country, and has representation in that same government, yes, like other regions in Spain, Catalonia is largely autonomous. However, that does not mean it is subjugated by another head of state in which Catalonia pays tribute. Revolutions in colonies all over the world were started because the colonies themselves had no representation in government and were ruthlessly exploited for the mother nations sake. Catalonia has none of that. And no, paying 19.49% of federal tax and receiving back 14.03% is not exploitation.

Besides from those facts, i just don't understand what benefits can come out of independence, looks to me like a few that are leading the masses. Lets break it down.

I don't think its about either the language or the culture. According to the last Catalan language census, most Catalans prefer and use Spanish before Catalan, policies to increase Catalan use, such as forcing movie theaters to translate movies into Catalan have not been well received. Besides, if Catalonia gained independence it would take centuries for people to stop speaking Spanish, even if it could be done at all. The culture is different? Of course, every country has different cultures for different regions, yet few countries want to splinter themselves.

Is it the politics? It might be, however there is easier and less painful ways of achieving these goals, such as exercising your democratic rights to chose the rulers you wish for yourselves. But what if everyone else is after you? I doubt it, Basques have the same griefs and make some of the same arguments Catalans do.

So what is it then? Is it the bad blood because of the Franco dictatorship? This is my best guess, yes that was pretty bad for everyone. Is it really worth it to go of as a separate country just because of some rifts a dictator caused? Can these wounds not be mended?

Catalonia is in need of a bailout, is this really the best time to go their separate ways?

It has nothing to do with franquism mate. Franquism ended 40 years ago. We just want to rule ourselves. We are very different from Spanish and we don't share the same points of view. They are basically cockblocking us all the time so we want our bedroom. Plus, there is the culture/language and tax issues as you point out, whichi are very important and not a minor thing as you say.

I always find amazing when people from ex-spanish colonies defend Spain with so much emphasis. You got independence from Spain, let other people have the same as you dudes. Oh, and they came to your country and destroyed your civilizations and most of the culture, just in case you don't remember that.

Yohan Modric wrote:

gondov wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:If they aren't Spanish whilst living in Spain, then what are they?

Well that's what Catalans are asking themselves; "what are we doing in Spain, we aren't Spanish, we can cope on our own and can make our own decisions".

I guess that answers your questions to why they want independence.

I mean if Catalonia is in Spain, then what's the problem?

Dude, you must be slow or something.
That's exactly the problem. Catalonia is in Spain and ruled BY spain and many of catalan population want to be outside spain and rule themselves.
I don't think it's that hard to understand.
Plus, the scottish similitude it's exactly the same. If you can understand why Scotland might want independence, you can understand our case, cause it's actually very similar.

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm sure most regions in every country wish they could rule themselves

Not at all, that's completely false.

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm sure most regions in every country wish they could rule themselves, doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

Did you ever attend history class?
not trolling really curious your statements have all been wrong.

Basque elections were held yesterday and nationalists parties won a big majority in the parliament:

Basque Nationalist party (PNV) 27 congressmen
EH-Bildu (left-wing independentists): 21 congressmen
PSOE: 16
PP: 10
UPyD: 1

Both PNV and Bildu want to make a referendum of independence, although they have not been as vocal as catalan parties.

Arqui, happy with the results? Who did you vote if I may ask?

free_cat wrote:Basque elections were held yesterday and nationalists parties won a big majority in the parliament:

Basque Nationalist party (PNV) 27 congressmen
EH-Bildu (left-wing independentists): 21 congressmen
PSOE: 16
PP: 10
UPyD: 1

Both PNV and Bildu want to make a referendum of independence, although they have not been as vocal as catalan parties.

Arqui, happy with the results? Who did you vote if I may ask?

Free, you probably know my dream of if we could actually build a federal and rule of law system that would perfectly coincide along with Espana but since I've left that highly unrealistic dream years ago, now I without hesitance support the euzko alderdi jeltzalea (PNV) just like my family has for years on end. So yes, I voted in PNV I don't want to be sinking with a ship in the economy that we aren't even a part of. Both of our regions are by far the wealthiest owners and literally carrying Espana on our backs whether its through them stealing from us or just by the strong provincial economies of ours.

Results? As usual the PNV has made the foremost effort yet I'm seeing a way to sluggish effort surprisingly from the EH Bildu.

There isn't must vocal support from the parties mostly because the liberal socialists are providing magnificent solutions as usual for union-ship but its obvious it will fall on deaf ears and the mainland will continue to ignore these proposed policies and steal steal steal.

The other reason is we are just picking up momentum that also has been sparked by the Catalans as anything, I'm surprised there has been so much support. I mean see what happened in Mondragón as despite Gipuzkoans being traditionally leftist, its obvious the efforts and support is rising.

btw since I'll be joining this thread (all to late), I humbly request that you also add "Euskadi" to the title of the thread. Catalans aren't alone on this.

[quote="Arquitecto"]

free_cat wrote:

btw since I'll be joining this thread (all to late), I humbly request that you also add "Euskadi" to the title of the thread. Catalans aren't alone on this.

I'll change it for you Arq.

Arquitecto wrote:
Free, you probably know my dream of if we could actually build a federal and rule of law system that would perfectly coincide along with Espana but since I've left that highly unrealistic dream years ago, now I without hesitance support the euzko alderdi jeltzalea (PNV) just like my family has for years on end..

The other reason is we are just picking up momentum that also has been sparked by the Catalans as anything.

Catalans aren't alone on this.

Got goosebumps from those parts of the message.

Arquitecto joining the independentist ship!!!!


With Arquitecto on our side, this is a done thing. We just need to make a campaign in favour of a new state for Catalonia and Euskadi in the EU with Arquitecto the spokeperson, and we will secure 100% of favourable vote from catalan and basque women.

Sorry for not changing it sooner!
Thanks BarcaKizz

This thread is just politics now?

I don't mind it.
One of the more "classier and informative" threads on here

Gora Euskadi

Awesome video from this New Yorker called Sharif:



He understands catalan sentiments and I really like his ending of the video. We want to start from scratch and make a new, more democratic and better country. Let's do this!

Catalan elections are next sunday.
Last polls predicted a win by current president's party, CIU, with around 64 members. The overall pro-referendum members in the party would be around 90 over the 135 total.

However, since the last polls, there have been a lot of political movement.
As foreseen by many, spanish media is attacking the catalan president, Artur Mas, accusing him of corruption and tax fraud (never saw that coming) mentioning a police report about current accounts in Switzerland. Several judges have stated that this report doesn't exist but spanish politicians are using the news to attack Artur Mas.

Btw, two new videos from Sharif, the american guy who was in 9/11 demonstrations in Barcelona:

https://vimeo.com/53543211

https://vimeo.com/53962070

Respect!

"We [Catalunya] do not have the possibility of a competitive league," he was quoted as saying by AFP.

"We would have very few teams and Barcelona will need to join another league. That could be the French or the Spanish one."

The Blaugrana have often been seen as a political symbol for many Catalans, something that the mayor fully endorses.

"Many years ago, the club was a reference point for everyone and was a bit like the national team of Catalonia. The play well and also represent a particular style of doing things. That makes us proud."

Seems possible

I dont think travelling is going to be an issue either.

Who says that Pedram?

Elections are on their way, in an hour the colleges close.

I'm near a nervous breakdown waiting for the results. The participation so far is one of the biggest ever.

free_cat wrote:Who says that Pedram?

Elections are on their way, in an hour the colleges close.

I'm near a nervous breakdown waiting for the results. The participation so far is one of the biggest ever.

Goal.com haven't mentioned the name, probably Barcelona's mayor.

9 minutes for the closing of polls and the survey of catalan tv which is usually extremely accurate.

So this is happening afterall ? Catalunya becoming a seperate state now ?

Wouldnt this spur a chain reaction amongst other regions in Spain..I mean soon they'll start demanding their own separate state now.

According to TV3 survey this are the results:

CIU 54-57 Independentists
ERC 20-23 Independentists
PSC 16-18 Unionists
PP 16-18 Independentists
ICV 10-12 Favour autodetermination
C's 6-7 Unionists
CUP 5-6 Independentists

The independentist parties would improve the general support but CIU would suffer a setback.