Independence for Catalunya & Euskadi

According to TV3 survey this are the results:

CIU 54-57 Independentists
ERC 20-23 Independentists
PSC 16-18 Unionists
PP 16-18 Independentists
ICV 10-12 Favour autodetermination
C's 6-7 Unionists
CUP 5-6 Independentists

The independentist parties would improve the general support but CIU would suffer a setback.

Spain to turn into a micro nation when all the states leaves them.

What do these results mean?

Surag wrote:So this is happening afterall ? Catalunya becoming a seperate state now ?

Wouldnt this spur a chain reaction amongst other regions in Spain..I mean soon they'll start demanding their own separate state now.

Not yet, this is just a regular elections, but the next government will promote a referendum for the independence if independentist parties are majority (according to the survey they will have a big majority).

CBarca wrote:What do these results mean?

This is just a survey. However, these results would mean that the independentist parties have won a big majority (around 95 of 135 members) and that there will be a referendum for independence in the next 4 years.

Let's suppose the independentist party win in the referendum, does Spain allow Catalonia to leave ?

Pedram wrote:Let's suppose the independentist party win in the referendum, does Spain allow Catalonia to leave ?

It doesn't really matter. If the referendum is won, a catalan state will be declared and catalan administration will move towards creating a state.

If spain doesn't attack catalonia militarily, the catalan state will be created.

CIU 50 Independentists
PSC 21 Unionist
ERC 20 Independentists
PPC 19 Unionist
ICV 13 Favour self-determination but undecided
C's 9 Unionist
CUP 3 Independentists

so at the moment 73 independentist parliamentaries over 135 (absolute majority) vs. 39 unionist and 13 undecided!

98% of votes counted:

CIU 50 Independentists
ERC 21 Independentists
PSC 20 Unionist
PPC 19 Unionist
ICV 13 Favour self-determination but undecided
C's 9 Unionist
CUP 3 Independentists

so at the moment 75 independentist parliamentaries over 135 (absolute majority) vs. 48 unionist and 13 undecided!

Most decisive and transcendental election in history'

Mas will face challenges in leading the fragmented movement and carrying out his pledge to call a referendum on Catalunya. I'm surprised Mas fared worse than expected yet the gaining momentum of the independiexta is quite encouraging. Only hope us Euskadi can follow suit and gain momentum from our Catalan brothers.

IN! INDE! INDEPENDENCE!

Arquitecto wrote:Most decisive and transcendental election in history'

Mas will face challenges in leading the fragmented movement and carrying out his pledge to call a referendum on Catalunya. I'm surprised Mas fared worse than expected yet the gaining momentum of the independiexta is quite encouraging. Only hope us Euskadi can follow suit and gain momentum from our Catalan brothers.

IN! INDE! INDEPENDENCE!

I guess that the slander from spanish newspapers to Mas during this week has costed him. However, the independentism is still majority. Let's hope we can continue forward.

so what does this mean really?

chinomaster182 wrote:so what does this mean really?

It means that pro-independence parties have won the elections by an important majority and that they will start planning to make a referendum asking the people of catalonia if they want to be an independent state.

ERC and CIU have agreed a pact to call for a referendum in 2014 and for the several blueprints to follow for the transition to an independent state within the EU.
Artur Mas will be voted as president again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/13/catalonia-independence-2014

Catalan parliament has approved a sovereignity resolution, stating that the people of catalonia is a sovereign entinty.

It's another stepping stone to the referendum on independence to be hold on 2014.

http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4076854/20130123/parliament-catalonia-is-sovereign-entity.html

90.000 voices sign for independence at Camp Nou.
News and video in the link below:


http://www.vilaweb.cat/noticia/4130591/20130630/90000-voices-for-independence-at-barcelonas-camp-concert.html

I don't want to read through all 9 pages to find this but I have a question. Why does Catalonia want independence? What cultural differences do they have with the rest of Spain? Historical?

And where is Euskadi? Same questions for that.

Cultural and even laguage differences are pretty small. In fact any native spanish speaker can understand Catalan without any effort what so ever. I am not entirely sure what the reason for independence is. right now is probably disconformism with the poor economical situation of spain.

Anyway, I wonder how they will deal with the economy once they are independent. Prospects for them in that regard are pretty terrible. I read from more that a couple of sources that Catalonia's GDP would be reduced between 20% and 50% if it became independent just because of how interconected its economy is with the rest of spain. Let's take in to consideration that it would have to start paying taxes to trade with spain and with the rest of europe too since it would no longer belong to the euro zone.

If it joins the EU it would have no trade restrictions whatsoever, but the EU would not let it join immediatly

Nirgall wrote:Cultural and even laguage differences are pretty small. In fact any native spanish speaker can understand Catalan without any effort what so ever. I am not entirely sure what the reason for independence is. right now is probably disconformism with the poor economical situation of spain.

Anyway, I wonder how they will deal with the economy once they are independent. Prospects for them in that regard are pretty terrible. I read from more that a couple of sources that Catalonia's GDP would be reduced between 20% and 50% if it became independent just because of how interconected its economy is with the rest of spain. Let's take in to consideration that it would have to start paying taxes to trade with spain and with the rest of europe too since it would no longer belong to the euro zone.

Nope dude, Catalan is a different language from Spanish, just as different as Italian to Spanish. Some Spanish speakers can understand it, but most of them can't if they don't study it.

Reasons for independence are varied, cultural, economical, political, etc.

Don't know what you read, but it's ridiculous to say that independence would bring a reduction of 20 to 50 % in our GDP.

Most economical studies say that we would be better off because Spain currently keeps a big proportion of our taxes 30%~). It wouldmore than compensate possible losses of trade with Spain.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:If it joins the EU it would have no trade restrictions whatsoever, but the EU would not let it join immediatly

There's no need to join the eu to have free trade. There are dozens of countries not in the eu that have free trade. All you needis to enter Efta or sign agreements of free commerce.

free_cat wrote:

Nirgall wrote:Cultural and even laguage differences are pretty small. In fact any native spanish speaker can understand Catalan without any effort what so ever. I am not entirely sure what the reason for independence is. right now is probably disconformism with the poor economical situation of spain.

Anyway, I wonder how they will deal with the economy once they are independent. Prospects for them in that regard are pretty terrible. I read from more that a couple of sources that Catalonia's GDP would be reduced between 20% and 50% if it became independent just because of how interconected its economy is with the rest of spain. Let's take in to consideration that it would have to start paying taxes to trade with spain and with the rest of europe too since it would no longer belong  to the euro zone.

Nope dude, Catalan is a different language from Spanish, just as different as Italian to Spanish. Some Spanish speakers can understand it, but most of them can't if they don't study it.

Reasons for independence are varied, cultural, economical, political, etc.

Don't know what you read, but it's ridiculous to say that independence would bring a reduction of 20 to 50 % in our GDP.

Most economical studies say that we would be better off because Spain currently keeps a big proportion of our taxes 30%~). It wouldmore than compensate possible losses of trade with Spain.

I think the vast majority of spanish speaker are perfectly able to understand catalan without studying it. At most they would have to spend a week or two in catalunya before they grasp most of it. I myself, the few times I've been spoken to in catalan have been able to get basically 90%. And I didn't have any previous contact with the language. I've even watched tv in catalan a couple of times and I forgot it was a different language after a few minutes.

I'm not disputing the fact that it is a language, since the only difference between dialect and language is being legitimized by a state, and from that point of view it very well could be considered one. But you would be fooling yourself if you think it is not extremely similar to spanish. As catalonian culture is extremely similar to the rest of spain. i think from a cultural, and particularly language point of view Basque country has a much stronger case for independence.

As far as economical consecuences go. i'm just applying some common sense. Catalonia would not only loose commerce with spain which at this point I'm sure most catalonian companies operate in, but would also have to start financing several institutions and services that are as of now centrally provided.

Economical activity would therefore be greatly reduced and so would be the revenue from taxes gravating that activity. Even if you get to keep all for yourself.

This is an interesting article about it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/22/economics-catalan-independence-dont-add-up

 how big is Catalunya ? and why they feel the need to get independent?
I don't think Spain would appreciate that like any other country who want to keep its unity

Nirgall wrote:

free_cat wrote:

Nirgall wrote:Cultural and even laguage differences are pretty small. In fact any native spanish speaker can understand Catalan without any effort what so ever. I am not entirely sure what the reason for independence is. right now is probably disconformism with the poor economical situation of spain.

Anyway, I wonder how they will deal with the economy once they are independent. Prospects for them in that regard are pretty terrible. I read from more that a couple of sources that Catalonia's GDP would be reduced between 20% and 50% if it became independent just because of how interconected its economy is with the rest of spain. Let's take in to consideration that it would have to start paying taxes to trade with spain and with the rest of europe too since it would no longer belong  to the euro zone.

Nope dude, Catalan is a different language from Spanish, just as different as Italian to Spanish. Some Spanish speakers can understand it, but most of them can't if they don't study it.

Reasons for independence are varied, cultural, economical, political, etc.

Don't know what you read, but it's ridiculous to say that independence would bring a reduction of 20 to 50 % in our GDP.

Most economical studies say that we would be better off because Spain currently keeps a big proportion of our taxes 30%~). It wouldmore than compensate possible losses of trade with Spain.

I think the vast majority of spanish speaker are perfectly able to understand catalan without studying it. At most they would have to spend a week or two in catalunya before they grasp most of it. I myself, the few times I've been spoken to in catalan have been able to get basically 90%. And I didn't have any previous contact with the language. I've even watched tv in catalan a couple of times and I forgot it was a different language after a few minutes.

I'm not disputing the fact that it is a language, since the only difference between dialect and language is being legitimized by a state, and from that point of view it very well could be considered one. But you would be fooling yourself if you think it is not extremely similar to spanish. As catalonian culture is extremely similar to the rest of spain. i think from a cultural, and particularly language point of view Basque country has a much stronger case for independence.

As far as economical consecuences go. i'm just applying some common sense. Catalonia would not only loose commerce with spain which at this point I'm sure most catalonian companies operate in, but would also have to start financing several institutions and services that are as of now centrally provided.

Economical activity would therefore be greatly reduced and so would be the revenue from taxes gravating that activity. Even if you get to keep all for yourself.

This is an interesting article about it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/22/economics-catalan-independence-dont-add-up

My mom is from Girona, and I've spoken Spanish as my first language my entire life as does everyone in my family and every one I know....and I can garuntee you Catalan is NOT as easy to pick up as you make it for the common Spanish speaking person. Not sure what your rambling out. It's two different languages. Italian is easier to pick up and even then, thats picking up like 15-20% of it if you randomly run in to some one speaking full speed.

After some thought, Ive decided to withraw from this conversation. My knowledge is not enough and don't want to continue based on assumptions.

Nirgall wrote:
I think the vast majority of spanish speaker are perfectly able to understand catalan without studying it. At most they would have to spend a week or two in catalunya before they grasp most of it. I myself, the few times I've been spoken to in catalan have been able to get basically 90%. And I didn't have any previous contact with the language. I've even watched tv in catalan a couple of times and I forgot it was a different language after a few minutes.

I'm not disputing the fact that it is a language, since the only difference between dialect and language is being legitimized by a state, and from that point of view it very well could be considered one. But you would be fooling yourself if you think it is not extremely similar to spanish. As catalonian culture is extremely similar to the rest of spain. i think from a cultural, and particularly language point of view Basque country has a much stronger case for independence.

As far as economical consecuences go. i'm just applying some common sense. Catalonia would not only loose commerce with spain which at this point I'm sure most catalonian companies operate in, but would also have to start financing several institutions and services that are as of now centrally provided.

Economical activity would therefore be greatly reduced and so would be the revenue from taxes gravating that activity. Even if you get to keep all for yourself.

This is an interesting article about it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/22/economics-catalan-independence-dont-add-up

Well, it's nice that you can understand catalan well, but most spaniards can't.

As far as culture goes, it's not really that different, but what are the cultural differences between Uruguay and Argentina? Or el Salvador and Nicaragua? Or Spain and Portugal? We have a different language, different popular traditions (like human castles, dances, etc) and a different political culture based on negotiation and pact, having one of the first parliaments in Europe in the XIII century.

As far as economics, no one can't really say for sure if we will be better off or worse, however, saying that our economy will be drastically reduced it's very unlikely. As I said, Spain keeps a huge ammount of are taxes. While it's true that an independent Catalunya will have to provide new services, you have to keep in mind that currently the catalan government already provides AND pays all social services (health, education, police, firemen...), which is the biggest expenditure of a state by far. We would have to provide few more services at a small cost, and could keep the surplus.