Independence for Catalunya & Euskadi

free_cat wrote:

S32TABLANCA wrote:Considering the financial problems the Spanish autonomous communities get up to, I dont think this would be the best time for them to demand independence. Especially Catalunya, I hardly see what arguments they would put forward for independence when they need to be bailed out by the central Spanish government and may in the future need to be bailed out by the rest of us (Europe).

Nationalism is dead anyway. I cant see why on earth countries would want to break up now of all times. Now is the time to unite further (again, speaking about the EU), not fragment like we are still in 1919. In my opinion.

My friend Saeta, you lack a lot of information. Catalonia needs a bailout because we have a huge fiscal deficit with the central government. Catalans pay the most taxes in Spain, and 15.000 milion euros of catalan taxes are then distributed in other communities. A tax deficit of about 10% of our GDP, the biggest in a democratic country in the whole world. That's why we need a bailout and why we are infuriated, amongst other reasons.

On other notes, it's time to unite, I agree, but to unite being equal, not being unequal. Why can't we catalans have a NT when Danish have one? (because Spain forbids it, but there's no "ethic or moral" reason). Why can't catalan be an official language within the EU like Maltese? (because Spain doesn't allow it). And so on. We want to unite with the rest of nations in Europe, but with the same rights that other nations of our size, not being treated like scraps, like we are treated now. And furthermore, paying the insults coming from Spain. Intolerable.

But the bailout is coming from the central Spanish government anyway, so surely you cant complain when they are giving you money?

I somewhat understand your sentiments, considering that you have never had a shot at independent nationalism and we (and other countries) have, so perhaps while we are tired of it you still yearn for it. Which makes sense. It is true that the Catalans are sometimes not treated equally to the rest of Spain, which is wrong. But I feel that there is no need for a seperate nation in todays Europe, maybe all involved parties in Spain should work to make Catalunya an equal part of the Spanish nation. However, Catalan nationalists and maybe people in general would not even be satisfied by this...

The bailout is 5.000 milions in a loan, once. We handout 15.000 milions to the rest of spain for free, every year.

The thing is that we can't be an equal part of spanish nation, because we are not the same nation. They speak spanish, have spanish culture and traditions, spanish political views. We are catalan, speak catalan, have catalan traditions and views. What we want is to unite as Europeans. We don't really yearn for nationalism, but just rule ourselves and not be mistreated anymore.

free_cat wrote:The bailout is 5.000 milions in a loan, once. We handout 15.000 milions to the rest of spain for free, every year.

The thing is that we can't be an equal part of spanish nation, because we are not the same nation. They speak spanish, have spanish culture and traditions, spanish political views. We are catalan, speak catalan, have catalan traditions and views. What we want is to unite as Europeans. We don't really yearn for nationalism, but just rule ourselves and not be mistreated anymore.

Like I said, in my opinion its the wrong time for these things. Yet, under the principles of a democratic nation the Catalan people should be given a chance to decide their own future, even if I disagree with it if they vote for independence ultimately it should be given to them.

I apologise for ignoring the football part of the question and only discussing the politics, but this was quite a political thread in the first place

Do you even know what you're talking about lol.

free_cat wrote:

Kev wrote:1) If Catalunya becomes independent, then I don't think they should be able to play in La Liga. If you want independence, you can't receive the perks of being non- independent. That would be the ultimate form of exploitation and opportunism.

2) In regards to wealth distribution, states/ provinces paying more money to the central government and receiving less has occurred around the world in the past, around the world in the present and will continue around the world in the future. There is a reason for this- states that are being financially "punished" receive many non- financially quantifiable advantages, namely better military protection, better energy security and better economic bargaining power.

3) Catalonia becoming independent would set an extremely poor precedent for the world. Now, every relatively wealthy state would want to gain independence from their country, and an administrative nightmare would ensure. Unless Catalonia is being militariliy oppressed by the government, they should not pursue independence, as that manouvre is simply immature. It is akin to a spoilt child wanting to run away from their reasonable parents.

4) This post may sound ignorant, biased and racist, but frankly, with all the legimiate problems in the world at hand, such as famine, climate change, recessions etc... this issue is just too petty and does not deserve serious consideration.

1) Catalonia is now mostly in favour of independence, and we couldn't care less about where Barça will play. If it interests all the parties, we wil continue playing in the LFP (btw, it's a private thing, so not involved in politics). If it doesn't, we'll just go somewhere else or create a catalan league. No worries.

2) The extent of taxes that we pay is abusive. It's the 10% of our GDP, 30% of our taxes. Nowhere else in the democratic world is that high. Also, we get worse services instead of better ones as you claim.

3) It wouldn't set any precedent because many other countries richer or poorer, have become independent. It would be just another case. The comparison with a "spoilt child" is just pathetic. Spain is not our parents. We were born and we were mature and adult, and Spain came and took us as slaves. That's a much better comparison. Go tell a slave he can't decide his own future.

4) Yes, your post is a pile of crap. The fact that there' is a bigger cause, like ending famine in the world, doesn't mean you can't fight for another smaller cause, like getting the democratic right to choose if catalans want to be independent. And unlike world peace, only catalans will defend the right of catalonia to be indepedent.

Rich states trying to gain independence from their relatively poorer mother country is just plain selfishness. Regardless of how you phrase it, that is the fact of the matter. In Australia, we have a state called Western Australia that is currently experiencing a mining boom. The federal government is receiving an enormous amount of taxation revenue from that state, but is spending less money on that state. Some people in that state want independence. From the rest of the country's point of view, that is just plain selfishness. If Western Australia's mining boom suddenly ends and is in need of funds, the rest of Australia will undoubtedly financially help that state if need be. This is the definition of the word cooperation and teamwork.

If all the rich states in the world gain independence from their countries, the issue of wealth inequality would escalate. If Western Australia gained independence from Australia, Australia would crumble. If New York state gained independence from the USA, the USA would crumble. If Catalonia gained independence from Spain, Spain would crumble. Our world would be filled with more and more concentrated areas of extreme wealth and more and more areas of greater poverty. That will not bode well our world as a whole. The ultimate goal of global national unification would forever be out of grasp, and humanity as a whole will never achieve its true potential. From an alien's point of view, seeing our world get divided up into smaller and smaller divisions seems like a stupid thing. We should be uniting, instead of separating due to comparatively trivial agendas.

In regards to respect, if Western Australia really wants to gain independence, I'm sure the rest of Australia would view that state with more disgust and less respect. You want independence, you get the consequences of it. This isn't the era of cruel colonialism anymore, this is the modern world.

^unbelievably stupid comparison... since when do western australians consider themselves a nation?

this is more like czechoslovakia splitting, two different, yet close nations who shared a state and one decided to split because of being mistreated by the dominant one... go catalunya

As you see Catracho assuming Basque independence should this go through....I don't think it will happen.Would be an immense loss to the economy.

Can't risk that domino effect.

@Catracho- you wouldn't just retract the players, they'd have a decision to make.

it's not gonna happen anyway..

Kev wrote:

free_cat wrote:

Kev wrote:1) If Catalunya becomes independent, then I don't think they should be able to play in La Liga. If you want independence, you can't receive the perks of being non- independent. That would be the ultimate form of exploitation and opportunism.

2) In regards to wealth distribution, states/ provinces paying more money to the central government and receiving less has occurred around the world in the past, around the world in the present and will continue around the world in the future. There is a reason for this- states that are being financially "punished" receive many non- financially quantifiable advantages, namely better military protection, better energy security and better economic bargaining power.

3) Catalonia becoming independent would set an extremely poor precedent for the world. Now, every relatively wealthy state would want to gain independence from their country, and an administrative nightmare would ensure. Unless Catalonia is being militariliy oppressed by the government, they should not pursue independence, as that manouvre is simply immature. It is akin to a spoilt child wanting to run away from their reasonable parents.

4) This post may sound ignorant, biased and racist, but frankly, with all the legimiate problems in the world at hand, such as famine, climate change, recessions etc... this issue is just too petty and does not deserve serious consideration.

1) Catalonia is now mostly in favour of independence, and we couldn't care less about where Barça will play. If it interests all the parties, we wil continue playing in the LFP (btw, it's a private thing, so not involved in politics). If it doesn't, we'll just go somewhere else or create a catalan league. No worries.

2) The extent of taxes that we pay is abusive. It's the 10% of our GDP, 30% of our taxes. Nowhere else in the democratic world is that high. Also, we get worse services instead of better ones as you claim.

3) It wouldn't set any precedent because many other countries richer or poorer, have become independent. It would be just another case. The comparison with a "spoilt child" is just pathetic. Spain is not our parents. We were born and we were mature and adult, and Spain came and took us as slaves. That's a much better comparison. Go tell a slave he can't decide his own future.

4) Yes, your post is a pile of crap. The fact that there' is a bigger cause, like ending famine in the world, doesn't mean you can't fight for another smaller cause, like getting the democratic right to choose if catalans want to be independent. And unlike world peace, only catalans will defend the right of catalonia to be indepedent.

Rich states trying to gain independence from their relatively poorer mother country is just plain selfishness. Regardless of how you phrase it, that is the fact of the matter. In Australia, we have a state called Western Australia that is currently experiencing a mining boom. The federal government is receiving an enormous amount of taxation revenue from that state, but is spending less money on that state. Some people in that state want independence. From the rest of the country's point of view, that is just plain selfishness. If Western Australia's mining boom suddenly ends and is in need of funds, the rest of Australia will undoubtedly financially help that state if need be. This is the definition of the word cooperation and teamwork.

If all the rich states in the world gain independence from their countries, the issue of wealth inequality would escalate. If Western Australia gained independence from Australia, Australia would crumble. If New York state gained independence from the USA, the USA would crumble. If Catalonia gained independence from Spain, Spain would crumble. Our world would be filled with more and more concentrated areas of extreme wealth and more and more areas of greater poverty. That will not bode well our world as a whole. The ultimate goal of global national unification would forever be out of grasp, and humanity as a whole will never achieve its true potential. From an alien's point of view, seeing our world get divided up into smaller and smaller divisions seems like a stupid thing. We should be uniting, instead of separating due to comparatively trivial agendas.

In regards to respect, if Western Australia really wants to gain independence, I'm sure the rest of Australia would view that state with more disgust and less respect. You want independence, you get the consequences of it. This isn't the era of cruel colonialism anymore, this is the modern world.

From when did western Australian and New york started having have their identity (cultural and linguistic) of their own and majority of their People started fighting for freedom?

Kev wrote:If Catalunya becomes independent, then I don't think they should be able to play in La Liga. If you want independence, you can't receive the perks of being non- independent. That would be the ultimate form of exploitation and opportunism.

In regards to wealth distribution, states/ provinces paying more money to the central government and receiving less has occurred around the world in the past, around the world in the present and will continue around the world in the future. There is a reason for this- states that are being financially "punished" receive many non- financially quantifiable advantages, namely better military protection, better energy security and better economic bargaining power.

Catalonia becoming independent would set an extremely poor precedent for the world. Now, every relatively wealthy state would want to gain independence from their country, and an administrative nightmare would ensure. Unless Catalonia is being militariliy oppressed by the government, they should not pursue independence, as that manouvre is simply immature. It is akin to a spoilt child wanting to run away from their reasonable parents.

This post may sound ignorant, biased and racist, but frankly, with all the legimiate problems in the world at hand, such as famine, climate change, recessions etc... this issue is just too petty and does not deserve serious consideration.

Why criticize something you know so little about

Kev wrote:
Rich states trying to gain independence from their relatively poorer mother country is just plain selfishness. Regardless of how you phrase it, that is the fact of the matter. In Australia, we have a state called Western Australia that is currently experiencing a mining boom. The federal government is receiving an enormous amount of taxation revenue from that state, but is spending less money on that state. Some people in that state want independence. From the rest of the country's point of view, that is just plain selfishness. If Western Australia's mining boom suddenly ends and is in need of funds, the rest of Australia will undoubtedly financially help that state if need be. This is the definition of the word cooperation and teamwork.

If all the rich states in the world gain independence from their countries, the issue of wealth inequality would escalate. If Western Australia gained independence from Australia, Australia would crumble. If New York state gained independence from the USA, the USA would crumble. If Catalonia gained independence from Spain, Spain would crumble. Our world would be filled with more and more concentrated areas of extreme wealth and more and more areas of greater poverty. That will not bode well our world as a whole. The ultimate goal of global national unification would forever be out of grasp, and humanity as a whole will never achieve its true potential. From an alien's point of view, seeing our world get divided up into smaller and smaller divisions seems like a stupid thing. We should be uniting, instead of separating due to comparatively trivial agendas.

In regards to respect, if Western Australia really wants to gain independence, I'm sure the rest of Australia would view that state with more disgust and less respect. You want independence, you get the consequences of it. This isn't the era of cruel colonialism anymore, this is the modern world.

Dude, what a terrible comparison. Who is Western Australia? They don't even have a name for their country!

Catalonia is not richer than other regions of spain like Madrid, Basque country, the Balear Islands, Navarra. However, of all this rich regions, only Catalunya and Balear Islands (both catalan culture regions) have a huge tax deficit. They are basically stealing from catalans.

We don't want to be independent to keep our money: we want to be independent because we are not spanish, and the tax deficit is one of many issues (language, culture, national teams, infraestructures, etc). I'm all for uniting into the EU or even a world government, but in equal terms, not under Spain's rule.

Also, we don't have natural resources that we don't want to share like "Western Australian".

Le Samourai wrote:As you see Catracho assuming Basque independence should this go through....I don't think it will happen.Would be an immense loss to the economy.

Can't risk that domino effect.

@Catracho- you wouldn't just retract the players, they'd have a decision to make.

What economic loss when we are in the EU and we will keep trading?

There will be no economic loss.

Toffer Harley wrote:it's not gonna happen anyway..

We'll see about it. I was never optimistic about our chances, but now things are stirred up. 1,5 milion people walked for independence in Barcelona. Imagine 18 milion people demonstrating in Germany. They could probably get whatever they were asking for. Also, all polls show a big majority for independence in Catalonia and Basque independentist parties are bound to win the elections this october.

Le Samourai wrote:As you see Catracho assuming Basque independence should this go through....I don't think it will happen.Would be an immense loss to the economy.

Can't risk that domino effect.

@Catracho- you wouldn't just retract the players, they'd have a decision to make.

... and it would be an easy decision.. most of them have already worn the Green and Red before.

free_cat wrote:

Le Samourai wrote:As you see Catracho assuming Basque independence should this go through....I don't think it will happen.Would be an immense loss to the economy.

Can't risk that domino effect.

@Catracho- you wouldn't just retract the players, they'd have a decision to make.

What economic loss when we are in the EU and we will keep trading?

There will be no economic loss.

Toffer Harley wrote:it's not gonna happen anyway..

We'll see about it. I was never optimistic about our chances, but now things are stirred up. 1,5 milion people walked for independence in Barcelona. Imagine 18 milion people demonstrating in Germany. They could probably get whatever they were asking for. Also, all polls show a big majority for independence in Catalonia and Basque independentist parties are bound to win the elections this october.

I know it's quite hectic now, I live in Barcelona and I could definitely feel a strong increase in dissatisfaction. I wasn't there for the rally but my catalan friends send me pictures and they were all very proud, which I do understand. I definitely sympathize with the catalan position. Nevertheless most catalans I talk to also think it's highly unlikely to happen but it should give them more room for negotiations regarding the tax issues and constitutional arrangements etc.. Then again, I myself have to admit I did not extensively read up on the formal preconditions to push through independence enough to dissect the topic.

Catracho wrote:Do you even know what you're talking about lol.

Are you talking to me?

S32TABLANCA wrote:

Catracho wrote:Do you even know what you're talking about lol.

Are you talking to me?

Y-E-S

Another step more, another show of popular support.

After the 3-2, Camp Nou started chanting "In-Inde-Independence" in an unprecedented display of independentism by Barça fans. This has never happened before in Camp Nou, although I already witnessed something similar in the Copa del Rey final:

If they want independence then good for them and I hope that they will get it sometime, but I still dont like politicizing sport..

Catalan President Artur Mas has called today for advanced elections to be hold on 25th November 2012.
The president stated that the will showed in the street must be translated to votes to show there's a majority for catalan autodetermination.
CIU (our president's party), ERC, ICV and SI (big majority in the catalan parliament) are preparing a resolution to support catalan autodetermination.

Not including Espanyol and other catalan clubs players..

Barca / X-Barca

Valdes
Montoya, Pique, Puyol, Alba
Xavi, Busquets, Thiago
Cuenca, Cesc, Tello

Subs: Mino, Bartra, S.Gomez, Fontas, Romeu, Sergi Roberto, Deulofeu, Bojan

Catracho wrote:

windkick wrote:

Catracho wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:To be honest Catalan players leaving the Spanish NT will be a loss but nowhere near the loss as people make it out to be.

Espana easily has the best crop of talent in the world coming through especially with the Basque dominant talent that has made a serious resurgence.

If anything it'll give a chance to the better talent instead of blind picking from the overhyped Mesia of Barca.

If Catalunya becomes independent.. so will we!!! Which means we'd also retract our players.. Alonso, Martinez, and Azpilicueta...

On top of them.. we'd also be able to field, Llorente, Griezemann, Muniain, Herrera, Monreal, Inigo Martinez, Benat.. etc.

We beast mode now.

What would be the starting line up and bench for a Basque NT? Arteta, Javi and Herrera would be mid?

What if Cataluna and Basque started there own league (and whatever else other communites wanted to join). And they got there own TV, it might actually help smaller clubs get money spread out to them

Our NT would have Antoine Griezmann, Iker Muniain, Inigo Martinez, Nacho Monreal, Benat, Javi Martinez, Fernando Llorente, Xabi Alonso, and Cesar Azpilicueta

Antoine Griezmann is French ain't he?

windkick wrote:

Catracho wrote:

windkick wrote:

Catracho wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:To be honest Catalan players leaving the Spanish NT will be a loss but nowhere near the loss as people make it out to be.

Espana easily has the best crop of talent in the world coming through especially with the Basque dominant talent that has made a serious resurgence.

If anything it'll give a chance to the better talent instead of blind picking from the overhyped Mesia of Barca.

If Catalunya becomes independent.. so will we!!! Which means we'd also retract our players.. Alonso, Martinez, and Azpilicueta...

On top of them.. we'd also be able to field, Llorente, Griezemann, Muniain, Herrera, Monreal, Inigo Martinez, Benat.. etc.

We beast mode now.

What would be the starting line up and bench for a Basque NT? Arteta, Javi and Herrera would be mid?

What if Cataluna and Basque started there own league (and whatever else other communites wanted to join). And they got there own TV, it might actually help smaller clubs get money spread out to them

Our NT would have Antoine Griezmann, Iker Muniain, Inigo Martinez, Nacho Monreal, Benat, Javi Martinez, Fernando Llorente, Xabi Alonso, and Cesar Azpilicueta

Antoine Griezmann is French ain't he?

He's Basque!!

Wales has teams in EPL, why couldn't cataluna have teams in La Liga?

i said this in the original thread that was started in the barca section. it woud hurt both barca and la liga, as well as real madrid.

this is one of the longest and most bitter rivalries in the world, from a financial standpoint everyone would lose if barca left la liga.

from a fans standpoint we would all lose as well i mean i know in recent history they have been over played (too many clasicos imo) but could you imagine never seeing another clasico?

In front of a television audience of some 400 million people, nearly 100,000 voices in a sold-out Camp Nou are set to bellow "Independence! Independence!" at two carefully co-ordinated moments during the match.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/05/barcelona-real-madrid-catalan-nationalists

lmao....


Makes me laugh considering they were asking Madrid for a handout only months ago.....

MADRID — The most economically important region of Spain, Catalonia, asked the national government on Tuesday for more than 5 billion euros in emergency financing, underscoring a growing regional debt burden as the country struggles to pull out of its economic tailspin.

Catalonia says it can no longer obtain loans in the financial markets to support its debt. Just last month, the Valencia and Murcia regions both said that they would need help from a new 18 billion euro, or $23 billion, fund set up by the Spanish government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/business/global/catalonia-asks-spanish-government-for-emergency-funds.html?_r=1&

Why do they want independence?

What do they gain from it?