Re: All about Mesut Özil

by Toffer Harley Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:23 pm

ExtremistEnigma wrote:One thing I've noticed is how all the Germans or Germany fanboys come in herds whenever a German player is criticized. Is it just me?

I guess it's natural for one to support players from his or her own nationality but I've observed that Germans always back their own kin no matter what, whether their arguments are reasonable or not.

any specific examples (other than this one apparently)?

by MJ Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:50 pm

So you don't want stats thrown at you but you want to claim things based on absolutely nothing but your speculation?

I think the most telling fact that shows your 'hustle' argument is bunkum is that Özil has the most tackles in the final third in the league. He's not the type of player to run up and down the pitch, he's meant to be saving himself to unlock the opposition. I'd prefer he plays at his best where he's meant to rather than kill himself running around the pitch, out of position just so a few scapegoaters don't think he isn't 'trying' hard enough.

KNEW we'd see threads like this. Ffs, if we don't beat United I'm counting on Wenger Out threads popping up.

by Raptorgunner Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:09 pm

MJGunner wrote:So you don't want stats thrown at you but you want to claim things based on absolutely nothing but your speculation?

I think the most telling fact that shows your 'hustle' argument is bunkum is that Özil has the most tackles in the final third in the league. He's not the type of player to run up and down the pitch, he's meant to be saving himself to unlock the opposition. I'd prefer he plays at his best where he's meant to rather than kill himself running around the pitch, out of position just so a few scapegoaters don't think he isn't 'trying' hard enough.

KNEW we'd see threads like this. Ffs, if we don't beat United I'm counting on Wenger Out threads popping up.

There is nothing wrong with losing to the EPL champions, who have players love playing against Arsenal. Very Happy

There are two types of asernal fans , those who feels that it hurts loosing wenger and those who feel it hurts more keeping him. pirat

by boyzis Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:52 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:
El Gunner wrote:I don't know if I didn't make it clear enough in the OP and in one of my responses to Hans, but I'll say it again. I am not blaming Özil for the Liverpool loss, nor am I singling him out as the only bad performer yesterday, nor am I using him as a scapegoat
Please read all my posts thoroughly in this thread. You can even just read the OP. My major, and only, point is I don't like the style of which Mesut Özil plays football.

In response to Dani. You say "he is a 10, what do I expect". Well does being a 10 require you not to work hard and put in a good shift game by game? I don't think so, not in the EPL. Not in the way that Arsenal play football.
See I was learned in my schoolboy years of playing football that a midfielder works most hardest on the pitch in terms of running. I was learned that when you're off the ball, you move in order to make yourself available for the ball. If you can't make a run in behind or drag opponents with you to make space for your teammates, you come to the ball. It's all about constant moving. And I've played everywhere in the midfield for my schools and academy in our town. Right wing, left wing, DM, B2B, AM (even SS). And our coaches always and I mean always drilled one most important thing into my head: constant motion and 100% effort. That is a midfielder, doesn't matter if you're job is to only receive the ball, wait for runners and put the ball through for them. Doesn't matter how good you are at doing that, that doesn't excuse you from not being absolutely determined, focused and giving 100% effort. I'm not trying to compare schoolboy football with professional football, the only point I'm trying to make here is that I was nurtured as a footballer that you give you're 100% best every game. And if you feel like you can't go anymore, you just dig in deeper. And tbf, that's what I do everytime I step onto a pitch, I'm always either suffering from cramp in the 2nd half or I'm absolutely knackered after a match. I consider effort and determination a high moral principle when playing football.

In response to the guy who brought Wilshere up in this thread. WTF are you doing? This isn't about Jack, nor about scapegoating Özil. Please just go above again in this post in see what my point is about.
And if you really want to bring Jack into this, then let's go to the main reason why I'm pissed with Özil and then compare him with Jack. Who puts in more effort in games, Jack or Özil? There you have it.

This thing about "what did you expect" I can't wrap my head around. Suddenly, it excuses you from not giving it your all on the pitch? And when people say Özil usually makes good passes all round throughout the game, have you watched all of our games this season. There were a few games in which he was so bad that he just couldn't seem to make a successful pass. Easy, simple passes he messes up sometimes. And then after he does that, he just strolls away, like I don't give a f*ck and then the opposition goes on the attack and then we're usually short on numbers at the back.

OK, wow. I did go back and read your main post and for you to come back and say things like this isn't about scapegoating Ozil my stomach hurt from laughing so hard. Did you actually read what you wrote? Let me remind you again for the second time.

"You can throw all the stats at me about how many assists he's made since whenever, but I don't care."
"He is supposed to be world class. He is supposed to be worth £40+ million for us. Well guess what. He isn't."

"There! I've said it. Sorry if you disagree, but this is just my view on it. Slaughter me all you want."

"PS: I actually wanted to title this thread: "I'm done with Mesut Özil"

This is really hilarious that you don't think you're scapegoating Ozil after your team getting there teeth kicked in. What in god's name would you call saying he's not worth the money you paid for him, he's not world class and "I'm done with Mesut Ozil"?

And if you think this has nothing to do with Wilshere you are very much mistaken. Ever since Arsenal bought Ozil and Santi plus Ramsey hitting absolutely sublime form it's been a juggling act in and around midfield and again IMO They play Jack no matter what even if he doesn't mesh with the configuration of the other players not to mention it generally pushes Santi into a role not in the middle of the pitch where as most Arsenal fans could see when they put him back in the middle after they dropped points in some hard games a month or two ago how good and comfortable he is there. As it's his natural position.

Jack can go years without his goals and assists adding up to 5 in numerous calendar years, in and out of the training room, countless below par performances against big clubs plus every reason you critisized Ozil you could say the same for Jack on a larger scale but Jack Hustles so he's immune to being judged on the same scale as Ozil.

One of the funniest things your wrote IMO was "You can throw all the stats at me about how many assists he's made since whenever, but I don't care."

So again you don't care that Ozil is year in and year out one of the leaders in assists in all of Europe ahead of some of the best players in the world and again going to have strong number's in his first year in the EPL plus he kills Wilshere in goals every year but it doesn't matter because Wilshere hustles more. I mean this is just comical.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret, a lot of the best players in the world don't hustle all over the pitch all game long.

And in your example is it really that noble or even smart for that matter to hustle all over the pitch after his midfield shat the bed in the first 15 minutes and the game was already over giving up 4 goals which could have been 6? I know of course to you and a lot of other fans that Wilshere had no part in letting those goals up and it was just the foreign contingent of Ozil, Cazorla and Arteta.

No, Jack was holding the midfield together while it was getting rapped and he was the only one who cared about winning, does that sum it up?

I like you posts honestly. They are your genuine opinions and some points you raised are worth thinking about. Its right ozil had a bad game agreed? But why?

Now the second question did the team suffer becoz of ozil lack of tracking back and arsenal concede 5 goals bcoz of him? IMO. Yes. Bcoz Wenger played him in the wrong position not that he is a bad footballer.

by MJ Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:46 pm

Arsenal conceded goals because we couldn't hold onto the ball or deal with Liverpool's pressure. Not because one player who's supposed to maintain an advanced role didn't play a Flamini-style role.

by Babun Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:14 pm

ExtremistEnigma wrote:One thing I've noticed is how all the Germans or Germany fanboys come in herds whenever a German player is criticized. Is it just me?

I guess it's natural for one to support players from his or her own nationality but I've observed that Germans always back their own kin no matter what, whether their arguments are reasonable or not.

So what? Even if we do which isn't true. What's wrong with that? From which hole did you come from? Don't you support your Wheelchaires, Ramseys, Sterlings etc. like proper premfaces?

by Casciavit Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:18 pm

ExtremistEnigma wrote:One thing I've noticed is how all the Germans or Germany fanboys come in herds whenever a German player is criticized. Is it just me?

I guess it's natural for one to support players from his or her own nationality but I've observed that Germans always back their own kin no matter what, whether their arguments are reasonable or not.

Bundeslegacy Proud

by DuringTheWar Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:25 pm

Let's be fair to the OP, it's not a knee-jerk reaction to the Liverpool game, even though the timing makes it look like that. I've seen other arsenal fans saying similar things on other websites, criticizing his work rate and going missing in games. Not saying I'm in agreement with their conclusions (I think ozil has been just about our most important player over the course of the season), but these opinions have been around for a while now, even from Madrid fans when he played for them. So I don't think this is scapegoating from the Liverpool game!

by MJ Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:43 pm

Horrible, horrible timing. It's a kneejerk and if he didn't want it to seem like it, he could have posted it after any victory this season.

by Lord Awesome Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:47 pm

I'm surprised no one's blaming the darn Defence. One of the worst displays I've seen with Arsenal.

Got 5 scored against.

Blame Ozil & Giroud for not running enough.

:facepalm:

by Chumlum Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:50 pm

I said something to this effect in an Arsenal thread, but I sometimes think the "Özil is lazy" line is trotted out too quickly. Or that he's an ineffective throwback and relic of an earlier strategic era (!!?). In his defense ...

1. A lot of times players look lazy but they're actually not that lazy. Özil's dribbling and running often look very languid to me. But his movement is one of his best qualities, he's always finding space and drawing opponents out of position. Part of the problem is that Arsenal, when they're not clicking, are often extremely static so we don't have enough runs coming through that capitalize on Özil's movement and his elite passing capabilities. So the things he's really tremendous at aren't being complemented by the rest of the squad.

2. Despite all this, Özil still has very respectable stats. Can't recall if it was posted here, or if I saw it on Twitter, but I saw something comparing Özil's goals/assists from his first five months to those of Mata, Silva, and someone else - Hazard maybe? - in their first full PL seasons. Anyway, the comparison showed that Özil is actually ahead of the curve in all these cases.

3. As I think Gunnerblog pointed out on Twitter, Jose Mourinho holds Özil in very high esteem. Mou is a guy who dislikes "lazy" players so much he let a top-class footballer like Mata (who isn't even that lazy by non-Mourinho standards) transfer to United.

No one is above criticism, Mesut included. But it seems to me a lot of the complaints levelled at Özil here by El Gunner and others seem really unfair and unfounded. He's a terrific player and I remain incredibly happy that he's a Gunner.

by Raptorgunner Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:12 pm

Lord Awesome wrote:I'm surprised no one's blaming the darn Defence. One of the worst displays I've seen with Arsenal.

Got 5 scored against.

Blame Ozil & Giroud for not running enough.

This has nothing to do with Liverpool game, I dont remember last time Ozil had a good game tbh. Our defense was bad because our wingers and midfielders let everything to through them.

Giroud is playing to his level, what was he going to do even if he got the ball? nothing.

I have nothing against Ozil, but If I was Wenger I would drop him for United game to show him his spot is not guaranteed, he must fight for it and so do others.
This is the problem with Arsenal no mater how bad you play your spot in the starting line up is guaranteed.

by ExtremistEnigma Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:09 am

Toffer Harley wrote:any specific examples (other than this one apparently)?

Regarding Holtby, off the top of my head. He is apparently good enough to play for a top PL side..

Babun wrote:So what? Even if we do which isn't true. What's wrong with that? From which hole did you come from? Don't you support your Wheelchaires, Ramseys, Sterlings etc. like proper premfaces?

No, I don't, and I believe neither do any other "premfaces" support every other half-decent Britisher out there.

by Babun Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:36 am

ExtremistEnigma wrote:
Toffer Harley wrote:any specific examples (other than this one apparently)?
Regarding Holtby, off the top of my head. He is apparently good enough to play for a top PL side..

Babun wrote:So what? Even if we do which isn't true. What's wrong with that? From which hole did you come from? Don't you support your Wheelchaires, Ramseys, Sterlings etc. like proper premfaces?
No, I don't, and I believe neither do any other "premfaces" support every other half-decent Britisher out there.

If you were half decent you wouldn't generlize German fans either with your silly assumptions. Another Island habitant... :coffee:

by MJ Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:31 am

Raptorgunner wrote:
Lord Awesome wrote:I'm surprised no one's blaming the darn Defence. One of the worst displays I've seen with Arsenal.

Got 5 scored against.

Blame Ozil & Giroud for not running enough.

Giroud is playing to his level, what was he going to do even if he got the ball? nothing.

How the hell can you blame someone who was completely isolated?

by anh165 Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:54 pm

Raptorgunner wrote:

I have nothing against Ozil, but If I was Wenger I would drop him for United game to show him his spot is not guaranteed, he must fight for it and so do others.
This is the problem with Arsenal no mater how bad you play your spot in the starting line up is guaranteed.

How is it possible that all the Ozil detractors here know for sure what is hampering Ozil's form lately?

Let's look at this rationally.

1)

First season in the PL, the space to play is limited and quickly closed down by pressing teams - the number 10 play maker role that is accustomed to roaming between the midfield and striker becomes less effective unless his movement and passing is top notch - to do this the player needs to be fit and confident.

2)

Ozil cannot realistically "track back" during a possession-to-defence transition where a box-to-box midfielder or defender would do a better job. To play 38 league games + cup matches, you cannot be running an extra kilometer or 2 chasing players when that energy is better spent creating chances. Excessive running increases fatigue and risk of injury - a tired Ozil will be a very ineffective number 10 in the modern game.

3)

Arsenal's current squad emphasises *balance*, it is not a counter-attacking squad, it is not a squad that specialises in pressing high up the field or 'gegenpressing', it doesn't attack purely on the wings nor purely in the middle, and certainly it is not a squad that relies on one man to score the goals or create the chances.

Ozil is simply one of many possible avenues of delivering that goal scoring chance against a multitude of teams of various playing styles, and when he does it - it's indeed a ball delivery of highest quality, and this is not done by charging up and down 60 yards many times in a game.

by MJ Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:40 pm

Thank you^

In line with what I said and with the notion that he's been in England for five months and perhaps hasn't had enough time to adapt to an entirely different culture of football and philosophy within his club.

by chinomaster182 Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:51 pm

One of the most important things has not even been said yet.

Even if we agree with the premise that Ozil is lazy (which i dont agree with):

Results > Effort

The real world always cares more about what you give it, not how hard you want to give it something. Maybe fans and academy players might give their 110% on the field and play their little hearts put, but that is absolutely irrelevant since heart alone never wins you high level football games.

If Ozil constantly only gives 35% of his effort on the field then godbless him since he unquestionably delivers more qualitative value than most creative players in his position.

by El Gunner Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:05 pm

Dnmac4 wrote:
El Gunner wrote:I don't know if I didn't make it clear enough in the OP and in one of my responses to Hans, but I'll say it again. I am not blaming Özil for the Liverpool loss, nor am I singling him out as the only bad performer yesterday, nor am I using him as a scapegoat
Please read all my posts thoroughly in this thread. You can even just read the OP. My major, and only, point is I don't like the style of which Mesut Özil plays football.

In response to Dani. You say "he is a 10, what do I expect". Well does being a 10 require you not to work hard and put in a good shift game by game? I don't think so, not in the EPL. Not in the way that Arsenal play football.
See I was learned in my schoolboy years of playing football that a midfielder works most hardest on the pitch in terms of running. I was learned that when you're off the ball, you move in order to make yourself available for the ball. If you can't make a run in behind or drag opponents with you to make space for your teammates, you come to the ball. It's all about constant moving. And I've played everywhere in the midfield for my schools and academy in our town. Right wing, left wing, DM, B2B, AM (even SS). And our coaches always and I mean always drilled one most important thing into my head: constant motion and 100% effort. That is a midfielder, doesn't matter if you're job is to only receive the ball, wait for runners and put the ball through for them. Doesn't matter how good you are at doing that, that doesn't excuse you from not being absolutely determined, focused and giving 100% effort. I'm not trying to compare schoolboy football with professional football, the only point I'm trying to make here is that I was nurtured as a footballer that you give you're 100% best every game. And if you feel like you can't go anymore, you just dig in deeper. And tbf, that's what I do everytime I step onto a pitch, I'm always either suffering from cramp in the 2nd half or I'm absolutely knackered after a match. I consider effort and determination a high moral principle when playing football.

In response to the guy who brought Wilshere up in this thread. WTF are you doing? This isn't about Jack, nor about scapegoating Özil. Please just go above again in this post in see what my point is about.
And if you really want to bring Jack into this, then let's go to the main reason why I'm pissed with Özil and then compare him with Jack. Who puts in more effort in games, Jack or Özil? There you have it.

This thing about "what did you expect" I can't wrap my head around. Suddenly, it excuses you from not giving it your all on the pitch? And when people say Özil usually makes good passes all round throughout the game, have you watched all of our games this season. There were a few games in which he was so bad that he just couldn't seem to make a successful pass. Easy, simple passes he messes up sometimes. And then after he does that, he just strolls away, like I don't give a f*ck and then the opposition goes on the attack and then we're usually short on numbers at the back.

OK, wow. I did go back and read your main post and for you to come back and say things like this isn't about scapegoating Ozil my stomach hurt from laughing so hard. Did you actually read what you wrote? Let me remind you again for the second time.

"You can throw all the stats at me about how many assists he's made since whenever, but I don't care."
"He is supposed to be world class. He is supposed to be worth £40+ million for us. Well guess what. He isn't."

"There! I've said it. Sorry if you disagree, but this is just my view on it. Slaughter me all you want."

"PS: I actually wanted to title this thread: "I'm done with Mesut Özil"

This is really hilarious that you don't think you're scapegoating Ozil after your team getting there teeth kicked in. What in god's name would you call saying he's not worth the money you paid for him, he's not world class and "I'm done with Mesut Ozil"?

And if you think this has nothing to do with Wilshere you are very much mistaken. Ever since Arsenal bought Ozil and Santi plus Ramsey hitting absolutely sublime form it's been a juggling act in and around midfield and again IMO They play Jack no matter what even if he doesn't mesh with the configuration of the other players not to mention it generally pushes Santi into a role not in the middle of the pitch where as most Arsenal fans could see when they put him back in the middle after they dropped points in some hard games a month or two ago how good and comfortable he is there. As it's his natural position.

Jack can go years without his goals and assists adding up to 5 in numerous calendar years, in and out of the training room, countless below par performances against big clubs plus every reason you critisized Ozil you could say the same for Jack on a larger scale but Jack Hustles so he's immune to being judged on the same scale as Ozil.

One of the funniest things your wrote IMO was "You can throw all the stats at me about how many assists he's made since whenever, but I don't care."

So again you don't care that Ozil is year in and year out one of the leaders in assists in all of Europe ahead of some of the best players in the world and again going to have strong number's in his first year in the EPL plus he kills Wilshere in goals every year but it doesn't matter because Wilshere hustles more. I mean this is just comical.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret, a lot of the best players in the world don't hustle all over the pitch all game long.

And in your example is it really that noble or even smart for that matter to hustle all over the pitch after his midfield shat the bed in the first 15 minutes and the game was already over giving up 4 goals which could have been 6? I know of course to you and a lot of other fans that Wilshere had no part in letting those goals up and it was just the foreign contingent of Ozil, Cazorla and Arteta.

No, Jack was holding the midfield together while it was getting rapped and he was the only one who cared about winning, does that sum it up?

I don't really know what more I could say that my criticism of Özil is not solely based on the Liverpool game but over the whole of this season. I don't know what I need to do to make that clear, I just don't know it's actually Laughing

I said it in the OP and in my replies to some of you, but still you Laughing

No man, smh.

So you decide that my criticism of Özil is scapegoating and that I really don't know what the F*CK I'm talking about and that Wilshere actually has something to do with me not liking Özil's playing style... Well fair enough for you son, you believe what you want to believe.

by anh165 Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:11 pm

chinomaster182 wrote:

Results > Effort

Effort to some eyes is a striker or play maker running all over the pitch and attempting to break through a wall of 3 defenders resulting in a fractured ankle - it looks good on TV and it impresses pundits like Alan Hansen but it is tactical suicidal over a whole season.

What is important for a player like Ozil is he must have confidence and not fatigued which would blunt how well he makes productive passes and space.

by El Gunner Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:12 pm

McLewis wrote:
ExtremistEnigma wrote:One thing I've noticed is how all the Germans or Germany fanboys come in herds whenever a German player is criticized. Is it just me?

I guess it's natural for one to support players from his or her own nationality but I've observed that Germans always back their own kin no matter what, whether their arguments are reasonable or not.

There are many non-Germans defending Oezil as well. It's not always about nationality. He's a better player than he's shown and it's incredibly harsh to blame Arsenal's woes solely on him. I think that's what a lot of people are saying.

Jesus Christ!!! Did it really turn into this?
Do people actually believe that this is what I'm saying?
It was never, and I mean NEVER, in my intention to solely blame Özil for Arsenal's woes. I don't know what I said that was so obvious so that people actually believe that.

by Gil Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:13 pm

Ozil wasn't even anywhere the worst player against Liverpool. That goes to Wilshere and Giroud.

Wilshere was pressing recklessly high all game and failed to fulfill his midfield duties which in turn left Kos/Mert completely exposed while even Giroud himself knows he's the one holding Arsenal back.

Ozil will be fine once Ramsey returns. They have a great understanding with one another. Hard to create when you're most dangerous attacking player (Walcott) is missing and you're playing a Donkey that can't even take more than two touches without coughing up possession upfront.

As for his workrate or lack-of I should say, he has poor stamina.....what exactly did you expect?

by Hapless_Hans Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:19 pm

El Gunner wrote:
McLewis wrote:
ExtremistEnigma wrote:One thing I've noticed is how all the Germans or Germany fanboys come in herds whenever a German player is criticized. Is it just me?

I guess it's natural for one to support players from his or her own nationality but I've observed that Germans always back their own kin no matter what, whether their arguments are reasonable or not.

There are many non-Germans defending Oezil as well. It's not always about nationality. He's a better player than he's shown and it's incredibly harsh to blame Arsenal's woes solely on him. I think that's what a lot of people are saying.
Jesus Christ!!! Did it really turn into this?
Do people actually believe that this is what I'm saying?
It was never, and I mean NEVER, in my intention to solely blame Özil for Arsenal's woes. I don't know what I said that was so obvious so that people actually believe that.

You didn't, it's just the timing of the post after that terrible loss. But it's understandable that a loss like that would provide the energy to post something you've been wanting to post before, so never mind.

I think it's good for you to have this discussion, to clear some things up.
The only thing I can say to this is 1. forget the 50m tag, as it's nonsense, and 2. forgetting that 50m tag also entails that it's ok if Özil DOESN'T play a game once in a while.

by Raptorgunner Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:54 pm

MJGunner wrote:
Raptorgunner wrote:
Lord Awesome wrote:I'm surprised no one's blaming the darn Defence. One of the worst displays I've seen with Arsenal.

Got 5 scored against.

Blame Ozil & Giroud for not running enough.

Giroud is playing to his level, what was he going to do even if he got the ball? nothing.

How the hell can you blame someone who was completely isolated?

The funny thing is Ozil has sent thousands of passes and Giroud has hit the stands with them. At a certain point you just give up.

by Lex Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:01 pm

A dog got run over in town today, let's blame Ozil and Giroud for that, too

Car was an Audi and the dog was named Frenchie

by VendettaRed07 Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:06 pm

Wenger needs to rest Ozil more. He's not the type of player that can play every game in every competition or 3 games in 7 days etc. He gets tired.

He'd be sharper more often if he got more rest. lmo. l don't think he ever played as many games in as little time at Madrid.

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