Is Neymar killing the market for SA players??

Ganso wrote:
i have to disagree here,damiao is very physical,scored 36 goals in 46 games so far this season(brazil's top scorer), 1.87m,he has some technical skill and is fast when necessary.He also has good movement,like in the goal he scored for the nt.

I'm sure he is a nice well rounded package, but he has nothing in the extremes. Some team will take a bet on him and he might do well for them, kinda like Fabiano.

Thing is, if he was 1,95m and was moving like a ballerina, people would be puzzle. Same if he was fast like a sprinter at 1,87m or Ridiculously athletic.

needs an edge. I cant rate how sharp his scoring instinct is, european standards are always different. at 20M he is very well rated imo

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:

Ganso wrote:
i have to disagree here,damiao is very physical,scored 36 goals in 46 games so far this season(brazil's top scorer), 1.87m,he has some technical skill and is fast when necessary.He also has good movement,like in the goal he scored for the nt.

I'm sure he is a nice well rounded package, but he has nothing in the extremes. Some team will take a bet on him and he might do well for them, kinda like Fabiano.

Thing is, if he was 1,95m and was moving like a ballerina, people would be puzzle. Same if he was fast like a sprinter at 1,87m or Ridiculously athletic.

needs an edge. I cant rate how sharp his scoring instinct is, european standards are always different. at 20M he is very well rated imo

well,i think hes just good at every edge.

This is his first season and hes is still 21(or 22?),he has 2 years to show how good he is.As i said before,we all remember keirrison,from brasileirao's top scorer to Santos reserve player(yes reserve,not even bench)

AS for being a poacher please plug this into your browser and watch the first goal. IF you're calling him a poacher it's obvious you haven't seen him play much. Please look at this.

https://youtu.be/lhkB3KAc_1I

dnmac4 wrote:AS for being a poacher please plug this into your browser and watch the first goal. IF you're calling him a poacher it's obvious you haven't seen him play much. Please look at this.

https://youtu.be/lhkB3KAc_1I

you didnt do yourself any favor with that video, i saw him doing a flick => means nothing; punt and run => everybody can do that; and score normal goals.

I didnt see anything special to him

The whole market for Brazilian young players is inflated and stupid, it used to be a Ballon D'or winner would be worth 40m and now this Brazilian teenager is worth as much? Even Damiao at more than 18m is overpriced i feel.

What if i took that same money elsewhere to an unpopular country? Could i find 23 year old Florent Malouda for 3.5m? (his price when he moved to Lyon). Could i find young Samir Nasri for 12m? Can i take the troublesome Robin Van Persie of Feyenoords hands for 2.75m?? What about exciting winger Ibrahim Afellay for close to 4m? Should i go on?

What if i took 5m to Bayern Leverkusen when Landon Donovan was 21 years old, would they take them? Of course they would. What if i took 6m and bought Javier Hernandez?

Seriously, you don't even have to dig up much to find a better "deal" than Nerman. Eljero Elia and Mauro Zarate, everyone rated them, they just went for close to 15m each, is Nerman worth almost 3 times one of them? IMO No.

Not even mentioning the other problem with Nermans, his age, at 19 he's young enough to be a liability and screw up when he reaches the European game, like many other youngsters. All the other players i mentioned above, except Nasri, where all older than 20 and surefire hits for your club if you helped them relocate and fit in.

chinomaster182 wrote:
What if i took that same money elsewhere to an unpopular country? Could i find 23 year old Florent Malouda for 3.5m? (his price when he moved to Lyon). Could i find young Samir Nasri for 12m? Can i take the troublesome Robin Van Persie of Feyenoords hands for 2.75m?? What about exciting winger Ibrahim Afellay for close to 4m? Should i go on?

What if i took 5m to Bayern Leverkusen when Landon Donovan was 21 years old, would they take them? Of course they would. What if i took 6m and bought Javier Hernandez?

Seriously, you don't even have to dig up much to find a better "deal" than Nerman. Eljero Elia and Mauro Zarate, everyone rated them, they just went for close to 15m each, is Nerman worth almost 3 times one of them? IMO No.

Logic dictates that you always go for the most talented, because you are looking for the most security that you will end up with a top player. Specially when you are dealing with young kids.

Feeder clubs will brought up the Nasri's and Malouda's of this club. But as an executive, you cant pass on a super talented player for another one that do not show the same promise, at least according to your scouting department. Other smaller clubs will take that risk for you, and you will sign them when you have more guarantees.

Is Neymar worth 3x as much as those guys? yes, because he can reach the level of a guy like Robben, Ronaldo etc... the best of this world, and then he would be worth 10x as much as those guys.

At the end of the day, it's all about how well your scouting department works with the coaching unit to bring up a player.

St_Nick09_of_Goal wrote:
Is Neymar worth 3x as much as those guys? yes, because he can reach the level of a guy like Robben, Ronaldo etc... the best of this world, and then he would be worth 10x as much as those guys.

Your argument is fallacious on two points, first the most obvious one:
-Ronaldo was sold for 100 million euros, 40 million euros times 10 is 400 million, a much more substantive sum than the one you suggest.

-The whole potential thing for young players (they might one day be the new Pele!) is a common mistake clubs have made time and time again and part of what makes the transfer market so inefficient. I recommend you read either the book "Moneyball" by Michael Lewis where a big chunk is devoted to demonstrate how teenage players are a much worse value than players in their early twenties, granted the book is about baseball, but the exact same thing applies to football. Futhermore you could read "Soccernomics" by Simon Kuper and Stefan Symansky where they make the exact same point.

Even apart from these arguments there is another one you are failing to see. UEFA Financial Fair Play is soon transforming the whole sport landscape. Abruptly it will be the case that not even Real Madrid will be able to take ridiculous chances for ridiculous amounts of money for a player like Neymar. FFP is not yet here with all its strength, but clubs would be foolish to wait a couple of seasons until they curb their excessive spending.

I heard a lot about that book, i will give it a go.

You took things too literally. The truth is, players like Ronaldo are invaluable, and like Perez said, in terms of value, at 90M Ronaldo was a bargain. That's the potential clubs are after really.

About the FFP. as long as mercurial talents like Neymar will keep popping up on the market, some of the big spenders will be willing to pay the money for them. CLubs like Real Madrid, are extremely well positioned with regard to the FFP. I doubt we will see the kind of spending Perez did when he came back ever again, but if there is a 40M target a club like Real would want to put their hands on, they would be able to do so.

without trying to insult you this thread wreaks of naivety, Neymar is probably worth 3 times that of Damião why?

how much money does Damião bring in from marketing, sponsorships, shirt sales hmm?

why do you think santos pay Neymar so much because he makes them so much money,

how many people have heard of Damião and how many have heard of Neymar....hype makes money looks at virtually all of Apples product range

secondly Neymar is a "I can pull a rabbit out of a hat" player in the tactical world that european football is now becoming players like that are golddust, in addition to that he has massive potential to succeed, has already won alot and his ceiling seems pretty high

thirdly how is he killing the SA market are you telling me that because 4 teams bid for him teams are looking at absolutely NO ONE else

and lastly the fact that Damião was bid for just kills your argument about teams just looking at Neymar

julias wrote:without trying to insult you this thread wreaks of naivety, Neymar is probably worth 3 times that of Damião why?

how much money does Damião bring in from marketing, sponsorships, shirt sales hmm?

why do you think santos pay Neymar so much because he makes them so much money,

how many people have heard of Damião and how many have heard of Neymar....hype makes money looks at virtually all of Apples product range

secondly Neymar is a "I can pull a rabbit out of a hat" player in the tactical world that european football is now becoming players like that are golddust, in addition to that he has massive potential to succeed, has already won alot and his ceiling seems pretty high

thirdly how is he killing the SA market are you telling me that because 4 teams bid for him teams are looking at absolutely NO ONE else

and lastly the fact that Damião was bid for just kills your argument about teams just looking at Neymar

OK, you are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Whatever money Santos makes off of Neymar doesn't matter if he goes to Europe and isn't a great player. How much money do you think Liverpool made off of Torres a lot more then Chelsea are because he is not performing.

There have been a lot of the "best young player in Brazil" not live up to there potential, just because they dominate the Brazilian league doesn't mean they will do the same in Europe, there is way more then just playing football they need to deal with over there.

And again the whole "rabbit out of your hat" argument is so tired. Neymar is not Messi, he doesn't dribble whole teams and score from all over the place. HE relys on service too and when it's not there he will look just as ordinary as a CF does go back and watch the Copa America if you don't believe me, people who had never seen him before that were wondering what all the hype was about and that is because they were trying to use him in a creative role which he cannot do. Also if he is not getting the ball in good positions he does not drop back deep like a Messi, Kaka, Ronaldo to an extent, Robben, etc etc and pick it up and turn into a creative force.

Also, Damiao is not a typical CF either he has great pace and a great shot on him and passes well too. He can make things happen out of nothing as well. If you wan't to use a money comparison how much do you think Man U are making off of Chicharito as a CF a lot more then the Brazilian wonder kid Anderson. Europe is a class of leagues and some are not better there just different. CF's/goal scorers in Europe are celebrated more then any other type of players. Damiao is ready to step in and start scoring right now. HE is 22, 6'1, fast, powerful, technically brilliant, and can pass very well too. Not to mention he steps it up in big games.

By killing the SA market is that it seems that teams are waiting to see what Neymar will go for before they start to bid on other players. The teams there will not just let there players go for peanuts and teams seem to be skitish about how to handle it until Neymar and Ganso go.

Most of the speculation was saying Ganso would have been gone by now but you don't hear much about that anymore.

And I mentioned that ONE TEAM bid for Damiao in the OP so I don't know what your talking about. There's a big difference from one team bidding 18 mill and 4-5 bidding over 40 mill each, if you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, what they make in Shirt sales now has no bearing on what they would in Europe. Chicharito is a great example, he went to Man U for cheap started banging in goals as a CF and they couldn't keep his shirt on the shelves.

It's obvious you don't know much about Damiao so stick to players you actually have seen play more then once or twice because as of right now he is way more ready for Europe then Neymar.

dont get mad bro, we just tried to explain to you why teams are more willing to invest 40M on Neymar than they would on Damiao, he is that kind of player. Kids like Hazard, Neymar, Goetze etc... are unique in football, and they are considered difference makers due to their superior technical abilities and all around skills.

Damiao is not going to get that kind of attention from big clubs. If it's a back up option a top club is looking for, then might as well use that money on guys like Osvaldo or Lucas Barrios, much better investments for 20M.

I have seen nothing from Damiao that suggests that he has something "special", and edge as i described it, so he needs to move in europe. perform and his value will increase.

As far as im concerned, Neymar is well worth 30-40M, from a talent standpoint to the marketing opportunities he presents. You cant predict he wont do well, but it's an investment worth taking.

lol this damião hype is fun. seriously, he is a good player, is a having a great year, and i hope he becomes even better to take our #9 once and for all. but how can one actually compare neymar to him and not see the difference?

let's look at borges then: santos are down in the 14th position of the brasileirao (with 2 games less, true), and still he is the league's top scorer. forget more than half of damião goal's this year: they were scored in a lowly gaúcho state championship against teams that are probably on the brazilian 3rd, 4th division and maybe not even that.
of course, borges is much older (about 30), he is not a promise, and won't really be playing for us in 2014, so he's NOT ahead of damião as our #9 imo, but he has been scoring many goals as far as one can remember, catracho_azul calls him "cyborges: born to score", and yet hasn't really gone to europe. why? because scoring goals is not everything.

anyway, a reminder: neymar has also scored on a libertadores final, and a total of 6 goals in the whole competition (and he's noteven a #9). idk how many leandro scored in their victorious 2010 campaign, but it was less than 5. anyway where was he when internacional suddenly went down 1-2 at home against a much inferior peñarol side on the round of 16 this year and shamefully crashed out of the competition?

neymar carried santos on his back this year, without his performances, rafael's saves wouldn't have been enough to carry us through. e.g. everyone on this forum was criticizing santos for being too neymar-dependent.

AND, let us all remember that damião plays for Internacional, a team that LOVES to sell their best players as soon as money presents itself. neymar plays for a team that wants to keep as many good players as possible, and in our president's words "want to be taken seriously on international level once again", thus the incredibly high price tag.

ALSO, it's not just about who you score against, but what you score for. semi-friendlies against half-hearted european clubs doesn't count. (hell, remember he scored against a Barcelona mixed team, etc didnt he? and inter only really beat ac milan on penalties, thanks to bad penalties by ac milan/good saves by inter's keeper or something). where was he when internacional played at the 2010 Club World Cup, simply the most important championship for any south american club, only to crash out at the semi finals by losing 0-2 to a till-then unknown african club (Mazembe) and thus causing the first intercontinental final ever to not be between south americans and europeans?

when i see damião putting the same number of important performances and carrying his team to a big title like the libertadores, we'll talk. but seriously, i dont think he'll ever be as big. but, for all i care, i hope i am wrong.

if you have any doubts, read this man:

The Franchise wrote:Leandro relies on service, without it, he doesnt impact the game.

Neymar is a gamechanger, he has many different skills which nobody wants to talk about like finishing and even passing. To say his haircut is in anyway altering his price is an insult to his skill.

He is worth more then Leandro and rightly so.

If he costs to much, they dont buy him, it doesnt ruin the market. He is just one player of many.

If people thought Leandro or anyone else was as good as Neymar, they would go for him instead.

The Franchise wrote:

dnmac4 wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Leandro relies on service, without it, he doesnt impact the game.

Neymar is a gamechanger, he has many different skills which nobody wants to talk about like finishing and even pass. To say his haircut is in anyway altering his price is an insult to his skill.

He is worth more then Leandro and rightly so.

If he costs to much, they dont buy him, it doesnt ruin the market. He is just one player of many.

If people thought Leandro or anyone else was as good as Neymar, they would go for him instead.

Agreed most CF's do rely on service. The question isn't why is Neymar going for more, it was why is he going for twice as much. Also why is only one team looking at Damiao and almost all of Europe wants to throw 40-50 mill at Neymar.

I argued that Damiao would fit the European style of play better and his skills are needed by a lot of teams, but no where did I say that Neymar is not a great player.

Well he is worth twice as much because he is twice the player. One player scores goals only when given service, the other is multi skilled and creates and scores too.

And I dont think just Spurs are looking at him, its only Spurs who have bid. There could have been alot of intrest from other clubs.

Neymar has the talent to be one of the best players in the world, thats why everyone wants him. You cant just go find another Neymar (if he becomes what his talent suggests) out there somewhere. You can however find another Leandro, we could all name probably 5 young players of his style.

Leandro would fit European footballer better? I cant say that for sure.

He is less of a risk perhaps, but that doesnt mean Neymar will struggle where he will not. I mean, if Ronaldinho was 20 years old you would say the same probably right? Leandro fits European football better. That doesnt mean too much if Neymar is as good as his talent suggests.

In the end, people are willing to pay that much for Neymar because he might one day be one of the best in the world. Leandro will never be that.

and in the meantime, let's see what neymar can do at this year's CWC .

dnmac4 wrote:

julias wrote:without trying to insult you this thread wreaks of naivety, Neymar is probably worth 3 times that of Damião why?

how much money does Damião bring in from marketing, sponsorships, shirt sales hmm?

why do you think santos pay Neymar so much because he makes them so much money,

how many people have heard of Damião and how many have heard of Neymar....hype makes money looks at virtually all of Apples product range

secondly Neymar is a "I can pull a rabbit out of a hat" player in the tactical world that european football is now becoming players like that are golddust, in addition to that he has massive potential to succeed, has already won alot and his ceiling seems pretty high

thirdly how is he killing the SA market are you telling me that because 4 teams bid for him teams are looking at absolutely NO ONE else

and lastly the fact that Damião was bid for just kills your argument about teams just looking at Neymar

OK, you are so wrong I don't know where to begin. Whatever money Santos makes off of Neymar doesn't matter if he goes to Europe and isn't a great player. How much money do you think Liverpool made off of Torres a lot more then Chelsea are because he is not performing.

There have been a lot of the "best young player in Brazil" not live up to there potential, just because they dominate the Brazilian league doesn't mean they will do the same in Europe, there is way more then just playing football they need to deal with over there.

And again the whole "rabbit out of your hat" argument is so tired. Neymar is not Messi, he doesn't dribble whole teams and score from all over the place. HE relys on service too and when it's not there he will look just as ordinary as a CF does go back and watch the Copa America if you don't believe me, people who had never seen him before that were wondering what all the hype was about and that is because they were trying to use him in a creative role which he cannot do. Also if he is not getting the ball in good positions he does not drop back deep like a Messi, Kaka, Ronaldo to an extent, Robben, etc etc and pick it up and turn into a creative force.

Also, Damiao is not a typical CF either he has great pace and a great shot on him and passes well too. He can make things happen out of nothing as well. If you wan't to use a money comparison how much do you think Man U are making off of Chicharito as a CF a lot more then the Brazilian wonder kid Anderson. Europe is a class of leagues and some are not better there just different. CF's/goal scorers in Europe are celebrated more then any other type of players. Damiao is ready to step in and start scoring right now. HE is 22, 6'1, fast, powerful, technically brilliant, and can pass very well too. Not to mention he steps it up in big games.

By killing the SA market is that it seems that teams are waiting to see what Neymar will go for before they start to bid on other players. The teams there will not just let there players go for peanuts and teams seem to be skitish about how to handle it until Neymar and Ganso go.

Most of the speculation was saying Ganso would have been gone by now but you don't hear much about that anymore.

And I mentioned that ONE TEAM bid for Damiao in the OP so I don't know what your talking about. There's a big difference from one team bidding 18 mill and 4-5 bidding over 40 mill each, if you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, what they make in Shirt sales now has no bearing on what they would in Europe. Chicharito is a great example, he went to Man U for cheap started banging in goals as a CF and they couldn't keep his shirt on the shelves.

It's obvious you don't know much about Damiao so stick to players you actually have seen play more then once or twice because as of right now he is way more ready for Europe then Neymar.

lol im not even going to waste my time if u cant master the art of reading,

if Neymar is marketable he is marketable get that around your head, he makes money whether you like it or not

he wreaks in millions for Santos and would do the same for another big club

something that makes money is worth money duhhh

if u think pulling a rabbit out of a hat is dribbling a whole team then LOL thats all I can say,

clearly Messi doesnt rely on service which explains why he scores so freely for Argentina

and who in the hell is waiting on Neymar 4-5 clubs, how many clubs have £45m to waste on a 19yr old 4/5 maybe....are you trying to tell me there are only 4-5 clubs looking at the SA market

just continue to think Neymar is a crap player who makes no money and is worth 10p, yesss he also is solely responsible for ruining the SA market beacause clearly every half decent player in SA should move away

whilst all the teams in the world should be cutting off the right hand to have the deity that is Damiao

its easier like that for you with your tunnel vision

In my opinion, Neymar is definitely overrated.

The boy undoubtedly has a lot of ability, but I think he fits in with this new modern trend of players who are highly rated because of their ability to perform a few tricks and flicks. How many people do you think have based their high opinions of the boy off of a few skill montages on Youtube?

He may be skilful, but you have to be careful not to forget about other important things such as team ethic and temprament: two factors in which he seems to lack.

How in the world does neymar not have team ethic?

Plz Rosell!!!No Neymar!!

we have Deulito(17), Rafinha(18) & Dongou(16)..

I'm sure @ least one of them will make it to first team in 2013 to replace Villa.. no need to spend 45M, we have great talents for Freee!!