Re: Luis Suárez : el Vampiro

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:24 pm

Regarding strikers in general.

Well first of all, if you include Forlan and Roy Makaay then surely including Ibra isnt for me. Its just common sense? Those were fantastic strikers but even Pep would probably admit he is better than them.

I dont think Suarez was better than Henry or Romario to be honest, especially Henry.

I also dont think Suarez is better than Shevchenko in his time.

by futbol Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:30 pm

So am I the only one who thinks Suarez' holdup play and ability to bring others into play is actually mediocre? He has an irritatingly inconsistent touch. Sometimes he brings the ball down in unbelievable fashion as he did in the Clasico or does that one-touch flick which humiliated Benatia, sometimes he can't control or make the easiest 5 yard short passes. Against Las Palmas he could've easily put Neymar 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper with a simple cross but completely overhit his cross. Twice. Maybe my standards are too high but often he appears to play like shit the entire game but because he keeps fighting as if his life depends on it he still manages to come up with that one moment of game changing magic.

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:37 pm

Not mediocre. But I think it looks better to many because we havent seen a player at Barca who does it at all since probably Kluivert. Obviously Ibra also (who to me has a better touch, physically stronger, doesnt dive with his back to goal) but it was for hardly any time and alot of negatives distracted alot of people of the things he actually did well.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:48 pm

The Franchise wrote:@alexjanosik regarding Ibra-Suarez role:

You argue Ibra could probably do the hold up portion of the Suarez, I think he can easily and probably at a better level. Because Suarez is so prone to diving when someone comes into his back, he doesnt get the call and its a lost possession. I dont think you can compare Ibra's use within Pep's system to this one, for one we are talking about small spaces and faster balls into him I think he did a very good job anyway at this part of the game (minus the Inter game in which is was horrible at this against Lucio and Samual).

Agreed Ibra doesnt offer the movement of Suarez, he plays for himself and doesnt often open up spaces for others.

The fact Suarez gets less touches than Neymar or Messi is neither here nor there for me honestly. I expect that a 9 will always get less touches than players like Neymar and Messi because they have no restriction of movement and he does. It would be the same with Lewandowski for example and I think he too could probably some moments of magic (though not to the degree or Suarez). I also think while Suarez gets less touches compared to Messi, I bet he touches the ball no less than Aguero does now for example. Suarez isnt starved of touches in this team, simply because we have the ball 65% of the game at least.

I disagree about Ibra not having any moments, but I dont want to get into it because our comparison isnt what each player did for the team (which Saurez wins) and which player did more magical things (closer, but Suarez wins too)..merely the role positionally and what I believe to be the number 1 most important thing Suarez currently brings (the first point, the hold up play)

Well, besides holding up the ball, Suarez also offers great movement and is able to provide magic with limited touches. So though by definition,providing magic isnt part of his role, because he manages to consistently do so, he has made it a part of his role. I would argue that the movement and magic have been equally instrumental for us as his holdup play. My question is would Ibra be able to provide all 3 to the same level with Messi and Neymar flanking him. I think the answer is no. I am willing to concede that Ibra can offer better holdup.

Regarding the touches,ofcourse a striker will have less touches. The argument I am trying to make is that Suarez manages to consistently produce moments despite less touches and with his back to goal. You mention Aguero but there is one key difference. Yes, Aguero probably sees as much of the ball as Suarez but Aguero also plays with a partner more often. City play 2 up top most of the time and invariably the other striker plays the holdup guy while Aguero plays facing the goal.You would agree that its easier to produce moments facing the goal than it is to produce playing holdup and back to goal. Even accounting for this difference, Aguero still doesnt produce moments like Suarez.
You mention Lewa.He recently made comments that the role change has been reason for his increased performance this season.That 2 up top helps and that last season he was alone upfront against 2 CB's and it was tough. Think Suarez deserves credit for performing the way he did given the role.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:56 pm

futbol wrote:So am I the only one who thinks Suarez' holdup play and ability to bring others into play is actually mediocre? He has an irritatingly inconsistent touch. Sometimes he brings the ball down in unbelievable fashion as he did in the Clasico or does that one-touch flick which humiliated Benatia, sometimes he can't control or make the easiest 5 yard short passes. Against Las Palmas he could've easily put Neymar 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper with a simple cross but completely overhit his cross. Twice. Maybe my standards are too high but often he appears to play like shit the entire game but because he keeps fighting as if his life depends on it he still manages to come up with that one moment of game changing magic.

This is the sort of post which irritates me. His holdup play is not mediocre. And no,he doesnt play like shit most of the game only to have one moment of magic. Ridiculous statement. He is very consistent player and plays consistently well throughout games.Cant believe you bring up him failing to set up Neymar when he is the best and most efficient player in the squad at setting up others. Messi assists more but he also attempts more. And you bring up Neymar who is arguably the worst player in the squad at setting up others(from midfield up). Neymar routinely messes up setting up others from simple plays(either overhits the pass or plays it straight into defenders) yet I dont see you taking a collective dump on his game.
You want to talk setting up others.How many times has Suarez set up Neymar(most famously the Bayern games)?
How many times has Neymar set up Suarez?I cant think of many.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:58 pm

The Franchise wrote:Regarding strikers in general.

Well first of all, if you include Forlan and Roy Makaay then surely including Ibra isnt for me. Its just common sense? Those were fantastic strikers but even Pep would probably admit he is better than them.

I dont think Suarez was better than Henry or Romario to be honest, especially Henry.

I also dont think Suarez is better than Shevchenko in his time.

I missed a couple.Can add Ibra and Villa to the list. I can understand you preferring Henry but Shevchenko? Why is Shevchenko better?

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:01 pm

I think his magic as you put it and movement, indeed are just as important. But I also think just in the most general of terms..if Suarez didnt produce magic, we have someone else who is capable.

If Suarez does do the hold up play he does, the whole ship sinks in my opinion.

I agree, Ibra doesnt offer the totality of Suarez at those 3 things. This is fundementally why Suarez is better than Ibra at and for Barca. All I was saying is really, Ibra would do better in this role than the one he had. And I think Suarez would be worse in the role Ibra had than the one he has. I dont think Suarez would fair much better at constantly being asked to run behind the defence like Ibra was.

Suarez can run into the side channels in counter attack, which Ibra doesnt do so well (though before his 30th birthday he could do that, he was faster than Suarez is now) but that Barca didnt use the counter attack as much so you question what Pep would have done with that part of Suarez game.

I agree about Aguero comparing to Suarez, all I was really trying to say was I dont think Suarez is starved of the ball much and has opportunities to do things. I dont really give him extra points for not getting the ball lets say, the way I would give to say Drogba when he played for Chelsea..who had to be ready to play even after touching 3 balls even 25 minutes in big games. Overall I dont disagree with you, just merely the factor in which it impress' me.

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:05 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Regarding strikers in general.

Well first of all, if you include Forlan and Roy Makaay then surely including Ibra isnt for me. Its just common sense? Those were fantastic strikers but even Pep would probably admit he is better than them.

I dont think Suarez was better than Henry or Romario to be honest, especially Henry.

I also dont think Suarez is better than Shevchenko in his time.

I missed a couple.Can add Ibra and Villa to the list. I can understand you preferring Henry but Shevchenko? Why is Shevchenko better?

David Villa...shame on me for not noticing...I cant say Suarez is better than him either, I cant really separate them.

Shevchenko? The most clinical finisher other than Ronaldo here. Alot would say RVN but thats only inside the box, outside of it he isnt a threat, Shevchenko was just a ruthless and clinical finisher who I thought was outstanding. He could also run behind, play in the 1 v 1 (not to the degree of Suarez I admit), scored headers and was technically very proficient.

I cant say why he is better than Suarez, I can only say what qualities he had which I loved and those qualities impress me more than Suarez's.

by futbol Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:10 pm

alexjanosik wrote:
futbol wrote:So am I the only one who thinks Suarez' holdup play and ability to bring others into play is actually mediocre? He has an irritatingly inconsistent touch. Sometimes he brings the ball down in unbelievable fashion as he did in the Clasico or does that one-touch flick which humiliated Benatia, sometimes he can't control or make the easiest 5 yard short passes. Against Las Palmas he could've easily put Neymar 1 on 1 with the goalkeeper with a simple cross but completely overhit his cross. Twice. Maybe my standards are too high but often he appears to play like shit the entire game but because he keeps fighting as if his life depends on it he still manages to come up with that one moment of game changing magic.

This is the sort of post which irritates me. His holdup play is not mediocre. And no,he doesnt play like shit most of the game only to have one moment of magic. Ridiculous statement. He is very consistent player and plays consistently well throughout games.Cant believe you bring up him failing to set up Neymar when he is the best and most efficient player in the squad at setting up others. Messi assists more but he also attempts more. And you bring up Neymar who is arguably the worst player in the squad at setting up others(from midfield up). Neymar routinely messes up setting up others from simple plays(either overhits the pass or plays it straight into defenders) yet I dont see you taking a collective dump on his game.
You want to talk setting up others.How many times has Suarez set up Neymar(most famously the Bayern games)?
How many times has Neymar set up Suarez?I cant think of many.

Neymar wasn't the topic here and I agree that Neymar is worse than Suarez at setting up teammates. He has the annoying habit of only looking for Messi and most of the time he doesn't even find him properly because his passing isn't elite. But again, that wasn't the topic. Neymar just happened to be the free man infront of goal and Suarez messed it up that's why I brought up the example.

"Like shit" is obviously me exaggerating. Suarez is a proven world class player. Nothing in his game is truly "shit" or "mediocre". But he's certainly not elite or at least consistently elite when it comes to touch, holdup play and bringing others into play. Certainly not what makes him a great player.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:11 pm

I am curious to know of the difference in role(between Ibra at Barca and Suarez now).
I might have to watch some old games but as far as I remember the role was fairly similar. Iniesta missed a lot of the season.
We played with Busquets,Xavi,Keita in midfield. Keita mostly played wide left midfielder, Pedro would play right, Xavi and Busquets in the middle.
Messi played off of Ibra who held up the ball and was asked to offer runs. The role seems similar to me. Only difference is that we now have 2 players in Neymar and Messi who play off of Suarez instead of one for Ibra(Messi). And we play more on the counter attack.

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:25 pm

It would require some multi game watching for sure, but you mostly have what I remember. The big difference I see is Neymar vs Iniesta/Keita.

When it was Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Keita, Messi and Ibra it brought out the all of the flaws of Ibra.

Becuase none of those players I name there made runs behind well. When Iniesta and Messi can get the ball facing the goal and start to advance, Ibra cant just stand there waiting, he has to run behind. That is something he is awful at but was constantly forced to do. What I think "Ibra failed at Barca on a football level because...." my first answer is, because he was too slow to being asked to run behind as often as he was.

But you take Keita out of that side and put in Neymar..you have someone running behind who can do it well. Keita obviously did a decent job at the late run from the midfield, but we cant compare that a real winger with speed.

Pedro, Messi, Ibra, Keita, Xavi and Busquets is another story because theoretically Pedro should offer those runs. This is where I would have to watch over again. But initial thoughts are that team sounds heavily relient on Messi picking up the ball and running forward, without any of Iniesta' secondary help with this.

Maybe I should rewatch the Inter games, the 2nd Madrid game (I dont remember it, I think Ibra might not have played tho?) and 1 or 2 games vs a poor opponant.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:27 pm

I use a mixture of peak performance,NT performances, versatility,tournament performance(CL,WC,Euro,Copa) and importance to the team to rate players.My ranking of top 5 players in the list based on that would be:
1) Ronaldo-ticks all boxes bar perhaps the versatility but his sheer peak has to put him number 1
2) Suarez- complete and ticks all boxes
3) Romario-not versatile but ticks other boxes
4) Henry- better peak than Romario imo but doesnt have tournament performances even though he had lots of chances.
5) Shevchenko

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:31 pm

The Franchise wrote:It would require some multi game watching for sure, but you mostly have what I remember. The big difference I see is Neymar vs Iniesta/Keita.

When it was Busi, Xavi, Iniesta, Keita, Messi and Ibra it brought out the all of the flaws of Ibra.

Becuase none of those players I name there made runs behind well. When Iniesta and Messi can get the ball facing the goal and start to advance, Ibra cant just stand there waiting, he has to run behind. That is something he is awful at but was constantly forced to do. What I think "Ibra failed at Barca on a football level because...." my first answer is, because he was too slow to being asked to run behind as often as he was.

But you take Keita out of that side and put in Neymar..you have someone running behind who can do it well. Keita obviously did a decent job at the late run from the midfield, but we cant compare that a real winger with speed.

Pedro, Messi, Ibra, Keita, Xavi and Busquets is another story because theoretically Pedro should offer those runs. This is where I would have to watch over again. But initial thoughts are that team sounds heavily relient on Messi picking up the ball and running forward, without any of Iniesta' secondary help with this.

Maybe I should rewatch the Inter games, the 2nd Madrid game (I dont remember it, I think Ibra might not have played tho?) and 1 or 2 games vs a poor opponant.

Good point. You are right that Neymar offers more runs than someone like Keita. Although Pedro did offer some movement ( he regressed in his movement later but back then he offered good movement), it was not to the level of Neymar who is constantly looking to receive the Messi diagonal ball over the top.

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:49 pm

alexjanosik wrote:I use a mixture of peak performance,NT performances, versatility,tournament performance(CL,WC,Euro,Copa) and importance to the team to rate players.My ranking of top 5 players in the list based on that would be:
1) Ronaldo-ticks all boxes bar perhaps the versatility but his sheer peak has to put him number 1
2) Suarez- complete and ticks all boxes
3) Romario-not versatile but ticks other boxes
4) Henry- better peak than Romario imo but doesnt have tournament performances even though he had lots of chances.
5) Shevchenko

NT team performances I generally throw out the window unless there are certain circumstances I can use.

For example, Ronaldo was so injury prone, missed so many matches and therefore suffered decline after around 2000 you might start to question his ability to win things because at the club level he didnt win much. But then you start to think of the domination he displayed in the 98 world cup and then what he did in 2002 and you realise, this guy would have won anything he wanted in the a normal situation.

But I cant include it when I think about Shevchenko playing in obscurity with no talent, just like I wouldnt with Giggs or other talents who just happen to born in a country without any other talents.

Henry for France is an interesting one for me. He did his best work at a younger player when he clearly wasnt as good as he was in his prime. Then in his prime France did nothing with an old squad with a very conservative approach and no identity outside of Zidane. He could/should of done more, but when I watch him at Arsenal I have a hard to trying to put many over him.

I think a difference in our rating system is the importance of peak. For me, peak ability (just so long as it didnt last an oddly short amount of time, for example Adriano) is a very high % of what I go by.

by alexjanosik Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:17 pm

Well,for players like Shevchenko and Giggs I dont count NT performance into the matrix.Obviously they didnt have the oportunity.
But a player like Henry definitely should have done better and I think it comes down to his lack of versatility.
Take the 2006 WC for example.He was in his peak. Yet disappointed at the WC. I think it was because he couldnt adjust to the change in role. He had to play up top alone with Ribery flanking(and I think it was Maluda flanking on the other side). Zidane is a player who likes to hold onto the ball and doesnt release it early. Henry was a player who liked to drift in from deep and liked the ball into space or feet early. Didnt get that with France,had to play a more traditional role and he struggled. Think this is where someone like Suarez would have excelled and performed much better than Henry because he is more versatile.
NT performance shouldnt be taken into account for players like Giggs and Shevchenko because they didnt get a fair shot. But for someone like Henry it should. He had plenty of opportunity and should have done better. End of the day,the greats find a way to make a difference. One way or another. Henry didnt.
Which is why for me,its a major negative against him.

When it comes to just peak,my ranking is more or less similar but with Henry ahead of Romario with the rest the same. Still think peak Suarez is better than peak Henry.

by The Franchise Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:57 pm

I agree, and I think that lone 9 role doesnt suit Henry at all. In 06 he was how old? My point is I imagine he was playing in a totally different way for years at Arsenal. It was a strange and frankly wrong decision to play Henry (who we all agree is their best player) not in his best position.

But this doesnt make me see him as less than Suarez. I do agree that it makes Suarez more versatile, but it isnt enough for me to put him above Henry. It would feel like a punishment to Henry for being used incorrectly, but in the end when it comes to rating players the end question for me is always which player would I sign.

I agree Henry could or should have done more. He also had a small habit for missing 1 v 1 in the absolute biggest matches, this with Arsenal.

I cant consider Suarez still better than peak Henry, the searing pace, unstoppable in the 1 v 1, a creator with the final pass and the leadership (which usually means squat to me) in comparison to the loose cannon which Suarez can be puts it over the top for me personally.

by Lucifer Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:15 pm

In an exclusive interview , the Barcelona and Argentina forward was asked about the duo who play alongside him up front in a team that stands on the verge of claiming the treble. And Messi claimed that the current strikeforce at Barcelona is the best he has ever been a part of. "I’m lucky. I’ve played with so many wonderful forwards over the years," said Messi. "I had a great connection with Ronaldinho. I played with Samuel Eto’o, with Thierry Henry, with Pedro, David Villa, Alexis [Sanchez]. But I have to say that it is hard to top lining up alongside Neymar and Suarez. "They are two players at the top of their games. We have only been together as a three for one season, so there is still work to do on the partnership, and we can all improve together – but we all see it as teamwork. "I’ve said before that with Neymar’s quality, touch and fitness, he can become the best in the world – and [b]Luis is the same. His touch, vision, his movement, his instinctive play, are incredible[/b]. We all offer something different, and make each other better. wrote:

by Lucifer Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:22 am

Suarez on current Barca form:

"We don't have the same intensity that we had last year, but okay... last season at the start, we won the games and you felt that we were there. The second half, however, was where we were spectacular." wrote:

by alexjanosik Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:08 pm

Sometimes he takes the being unselfish act a bit too much. Iniesta plays the pass of the season to put Suarez through and he tries to tee up Neymar.
Another exceptional square pass, this time with his left. He plays that square ball across the face of the goal as well as anyone I have seen. It looks an easy pass but a lot of players mess it up. Has to be played with just the right pace and direction to evade the defense and goalkeeper and fall for the onrushing forward. Suarez has it down perfect.
Still slow as a turtle but otherwise the most complete CF I have seen. I rate him up there with Puskas(debatable whether he is a CF), Eusebio, Gerd Muller, Van Basten, Romario, Henry and Ronaldo as one of the very best CF's the game has seen.
With Messi out, for my money the best player in the world.

by Myesyats Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:13 pm

Neymar is clearly the better player but that might be down to the fact that he can dishwash freely and Suarez is usually dishwashing with back to goal and it's harder this way.

Doesn't change the fact that Suarez was playing good from start to end only twice since Messi is out while Neymar had only one supbar game and bossed the rest. Luisito managed to rack up similar stats to Dishmar but if you had watched all the games from first to last minute Dishmar was much better EASILY.

He's the most complete CF in the world I agree but Neymar is simply better and it doesn't take away anything from Suarez as Dishmar is an exceptional playa.

Anyway, I don't know why we argue x>y again. We have both and can appreciate them at the same time, lets just embrace it.

by free_cat Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:52 pm

It's such a pity we didn't sign Suarez when Eto'o left as some of us proposed. We'd have as many CL as the Evil right now.

by jibers Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:16 pm

Suarez is great but his first touch is so inconsistent as with his passing. Literally he he can make a 2 m pass look difficult sometimes. He can go from looking like R9 to rooney in the space of 5 minutes. What I love about him is his mentality. Even when he plays bad or is having a shit game, he keeps his head up and still contributes to the team, he runs, presses, harries defenders and always tries. That for me is his greatest asset. I can't believe Barcelona have these 3 monsters :facepalm:

by Lucifer Mon Nov 09, 2015 4:25 pm

He has that street creed which Barca needed so badly. With him Barca can grind out some ugly wins with rough opponents. As they say every now and then u need a blunt weapon to make a point. I think Suarez is that blunt weapon.

by alexjanosik Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:01 pm

linetty wrote:Neymar is clearly the better player but that might be down to the fact that he can dishwash freely and Suarez is usually dishwashing with back to goal and it's harder this way.

Doesn't change the fact that Suarez was playing good from start to end only twice since Messi is out while Neymar had only one supbar game and bossed the rest. Luisito managed to rack up similar stats to Dishmar but if you had watched all the games from first to last minute Dishmar was much better EASILY.

He's the most complete CF in the world I agree but Neymar is simply better and it doesn't take away anything from Suarez as Dishmar is an exceptional playa.

Anyway, I don't know why we argue x>y again. We have both and can appreciate them at the same time, lets just embrace it.

Dont agree on any of your points. No way is Neymar clearly better. It is your opinion and I can accept that.

by alexjanosik Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:06 pm

jibers wrote:Suarez is great but his first touch is so inconsistent as with his passing. Literally he he can make a 2 m pass look difficult sometimes. He can go from looking like R9 to rooney in the space of 5 minutes. What I love about him is his mentality. Even when he plays bad or is having a shit game, he keeps his head up and still contributes to the team, he runs, presses, harries defenders and always tries. That for me is his greatest asset. I can't believe Barcelona have these 3 monsters

His touch is not inconsistent. I find it to be outstanding. He doesnt try to bring the ball to a stop with his touch. He tries to open space with his touch which may give the impression that it is bad.
Neither is his passing inconsistent. It is deceivingly good and very rarely does he misplace a pass. Which is outstanding considering that most of his passes are one touch.

by Myesyats Mon Nov 09, 2015 5:20 pm

alexjanosik wrote:Dont agree on any of your points. No way is Neymar clearly better. It is your opinion and I can accept that.

The only truly good games at Messis absence by Suarez were the last one and the one he scored a hattrick. Remember that game when Suarez was around 7 times on an offside position... ~7 times in 1 (one) game!!! He sometimes annoys me to the limits.

Neymar has been the leader since Messi is sidelined purely because he's the better of the two. I understand that you prefer Suarez (you have made it very clear) but it's straight and simple that Neymar is the second best player in the world after Messi at the moment.

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